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Author Topic: How do we handle the hard truths?  (Read 9152 times)

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DWIGHT

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Re: How do we handle the hard truths?
« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2007, 08:23:20 PM »

Giving an answer to people who ask hard questions is not always an easy task.  Ray pointed out that, Jesus did not have one convert in His entire ministry while He was on this earth.  Could He have done it?  Sure... He could have...He's the Son of God.  But would He do it....NO!  Why? 

"And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand." Luke, 8:10

Not everybody gets to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God.  I read the scriptures for fifty years...memorized thousands of verses...went to Bible college...studied Greek....Pastored a church...counseled hundreds of people....baptized scores....and I was blind as a bat.  Looking back, I can see it was all the Lord's doing.  I needed my spiritual house, that was built on the sand to fall, and then I needed to fall.  Now, not one of all the people that I have just told about, knows anything of what you all have seen here.  As much as I try, they still don't see.  It's all a parable.

Matthew 13:11
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given
.

But without a parable spake he not unto them...Mark 4:34.

Don't beat yourself up if you can't explain the mysteries of the kingdom, it's His to give.

Your brother,

Dwight



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Redbird

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Re: How do we handle the hard truths?
« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2007, 10:17:39 PM »

Dwight, I agree with you.

Jer 30: 5-8   For thus saith the Lord; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.  Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it:  it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.  For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, THAT I WILL BREAK HIS YOKE FROM OFF THY NECK, AND WILL BURST THY BONDS, AND STRANGERS SHALL NO MORE SERVE THEMSELVES OF HIM:

Luke 3:8  Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentence, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, THAT GOD IS ABLE OF THESE STONES TO RAISE UP CHILDREN UNTO ABRAHAM.

In His mercy,
Lisa

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snorky

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Re: How do we handle the hard truths?
« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2007, 10:39:49 PM »

As far as I'm concerned, if God hasn't given us the discernment to be able to answer questions, just say I don't know but I'll see if if I can find out, or something like that. I agree with those who say to give the churchian answer is worse than no answer...otherwise we are just boasting, all the while showing our ignorance.

As for Sorin, I don't know what he said but half the folks I know at one time blamed God for something or blamed Christ for something. If Sorin is to be led back only God can do it using one of us or not. Was he blasphemous? If he really was then expose this, but let's not judge the guy.

Deb aka snorky
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YellowStone

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Re: How do we handle the hard truths?
« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2007, 10:53:50 PM »

I agree with you Deb :)

Sorin is a brother and he has made me smile and then made me think on any number of occasions.

I think we are (at least this is how I feel) that many are judging Sorin as perhaps being blasphemous against God, but how??  ???

He posted Scripture that most of us have read over time. Did I understand? No, I did not then and I do not now.

I know our sister Kat said that his questions were answered, but were they. Is there any one here that fully understands the motive and the truth behinds God's obvious about face on some pretty horrendous acts. I think there has been so much focus on "what happened" that the real question was lost. :(

If I were asked the same question tonight, I would not be able to in any honesty, give a truthful answer, other than God was teaching us something, but WHAT? I do not know.

So please, can anyone shed any light on the Scriptures that Sorin posted? I will try to do a little research myself. The truth has to stand taller and stronger than negativity, else why bother having truth? :)

This is a totally genuine post, I would love to learn.

Your brother in Christ,
Darren

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hillsbororiver

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Re: How do we handle the hard truths?
« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2007, 11:22:34 PM »

Does the statement "God is evil" rise to the level of blasphemy?

Col 3:8  But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy988, filthy communication out of your mouth.


G988
βλασφημία
blasphēmia
blas-fay-me'-ah
From G989; vilification (especially against God): - blasphemy, evil speaking, railing.


Noun 1. vilification - slanderous defamation
malignment, smear
calumny, defamation, hatchet job, traducement, obloquy - a malicious attack
 2. vilification - a rude expression intended to offend or hurt; "when a student made a stupid mistake he spared them no abuse"; "they yelled insults at the visiting team"

(Synonyms)
contumely, insult, revilement, abuse
discourtesy, disrespect - an expression of lack of respect
low blow - unscrupulous abuse
billingsgate, scurrility - foul-mouthed or obscene abuse
stinger, cut - a remark capable of wounding mentally; "the unkindest cut of all"
invective, vituperation, vitriol - abusive or venomous language used to express blame or censure or bitter deep-seated ill will

Does this type of communication really have a place here? Is this the purpose of Bible Truths in anyone's opinion?

 
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DWIGHT

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Re: How do we handle the hard truths?
« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2007, 11:54:37 PM »

Dear brother Darren,

That is a very sincere and genuine way to seek the truth.  I really appreciate the way you feel and your desire to know the truth as we all do. 

The pot just can't tell what the Potter's doing until the pot is finished.  As Ray has said, the bible is one, and all the bible is one giant parable.  Jesus....is.....was....and....will be....  He was the same in the Old Testament as He is in the New Testament.  He has never changed.  The kingdom of God is within you.  It's in your spirit.  His Spirit and our spirit are one.  God is one and we all are one in Him.

 To show us how He wants us to live and obey Him, He gave us the Old Testament as an example of what He would do in our lives to make us into His likeness.  It is no secret, that in us, that is in our flesh, dwells no good thing.  We have kings and beasts in us...we have principalities and powers and the rulers of the darkness of this world in our flesh.  We have giants in the land in our flesh.  We have armies that defy the living God in our flesh.  We have every evil and imaginable idol in our hearts.  God will drive out all of them from our flesh by leaving nothing that will breathe or have a chance to live.  He will burn and grind it to powder until there is not one inhabitant of the land left.

Most of us still have a lot of these inhabitants left in us. I know I do.  But God has not changed.  Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever.  This same loving, meek and humble Lord Jesus was the same in the Old Testament.  All that He did in the Old Testament only looks bad from the flesh.  Because the flesh or the carnal mind is enmity against God and it is not subject to the law of God because it is impossible.  We cannot see what God was doing in the Old Testament with our flesh.  Our flesh is the enemy of God.  Those Jebusites, Amonites and Canaanites and all their wives and all their children are in us...in our flesh....and all the gods and idols that they worshipped are in us...in our flesh.  And the land that they live on belongs to God and God will bring His Sword and fire out of His mouth to devour all of them. 

The Old Testament may be a type but it's real in us.  I hope this helps a little brother, I know that others can explain it much better than I, but Praise God we have Ray, who I think will explain alot more of this in Nashville.  God bless you brother.

In Him,

Dwight   
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YellowStone

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Re: How do we handle the hard truths?
« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2007, 12:02:11 AM »

Joe, as usual, you clear the smog that allows me to see.

Clearly, we were both seeing different things through different eyes. :)  I seen less of the blaspheme than a hurt and somewhat angry brother, to be truthful, this saddened me. You of course had to see past this. :)

You and all of the mods are tasked with not only seeing through the eyes of the brethren but also through the eyes of the innocents and those seeking nothing but trouble. Of course, it takes only a spark to start a raging inferno.

You are so very right and I so humbly agree, that blasphemy should have no place in this forum. It was not the question but the intent. Although I always see this, it was not until your post that I finally got it.

I was focusing on the question and you and the mods were focusing on the good name of the forum and good works of Ray.

Thanks Joe.
Your brother in Christ,
Darren
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Robin

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Re: How do we handle the hard truths?
« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2007, 12:20:34 AM »

Thank you Dwight.

I agree and have experienced much of this and still have much to go. If I were to take my eyes off the spiritual meaning I would be tempted to think of this work as evil and torment. It is the very work of salvation. It is not pleasing to the flesh. It is suffering through fiery trials. It is the complete destruction of all that is within me that is not of God. This is why I loved Ray's teaching about being saved. It is the hardest thing any of us will ever do in all of eternity.

1 Peter 4

1Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
3For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:


I think God gives his own answer in Deuteronomy 7 concerning the physical destruction of these nations in the old testament. I can't answer it any better than he did himself.

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YellowStone

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Re: How do we handle the hard truths?
« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2007, 12:41:30 AM »

Dwight my brother, I thank you for your thoughtful and timely post. :)

You mentioned that Jesus....is.....was....and....will be....   And of course this can be supportedwith Scripture. :)

Mal 3:6 For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Rev 1:8  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

You then added:  :)

He was the same in the Old Testament as He is in the New Testament.

This is where the rubber begins to leave the road, because for the average reader seeking truth or something to blaspheme, the following four verses, two referencing Jehovah and two of Jesus Christ.

Jos 24:19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he [is] an holy God; he [is] a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.

Nah 1:2 God [is] jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and [is] furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth [wrath] for his enemies.

Here we see a jealous God and an unforgiving God. Jehovah God is said to be Furious and Revengence (naqam {naw-kam'}) 1413

And is given the following meaning:
  1) to avenge, take vengeance, revenge, avenge oneself, be avenged, be punished
      a) (Qal)
         1) to avenge, take vengeance
         2) to entertain revengeful feelings
      b) (Niphal)
         1) to avenge oneself
         2) to suffer vengeance
      c) (Piel) to avenge
      d) (Hophal) to be avenged, vengeance be taken (for blood)
      e) (Hithpael) to avenge oneself

This would seem to be in stark contrast to Jesus Christ

Jhn 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

1Ti 1:15 This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Here through Christs own words are told that he will not judge but rather to save the world. Not only the righteous but sinners as well.

Where at first we are told he will not "forgive your transgressions nor your sins" and then that "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners."

To the unlearned, this apparent contradiction would see insurmountable. :)

I know differently, but I truly have a hard time expressing this knowledge in words that convey intent.  ???

Eggi posted the following Scripture and I am very grateful for it :)

Jer 32:42 For thus saith the LORD; Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them.

Is there a simple answer that explains why? I think we would all agree that although the plan may not have changed, the focus certainly did.

Just some thoughts concerning an issue that is close to my heart.

Thank you my dear brother,

In Christ with Love,
Darren
« Last Edit: March 29, 2007, 12:44:30 AM by YellowStone »
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Craig

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Re: How do we handle the hard truths?
« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2007, 01:09:00 AM »

I'm tiring of this whole discussion,  did anyone actually read what was asked?  All these questions came from a site called evilbible.  This forum is not here to promote any site that is full of lies and blasphamy.  I will revisit the questions, I will not post all the was stated in these "questions"


1) Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead  (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)

You can look up the post , it said God approved of what happened.  I see nowhere in that scripture that said, God condoned it, but I do see where the evil of men, did do that.  If you read a little further verse 25 it states  "In those days there was no king in Israel. Every man did the right in his own eyes." MKJV

Sounds sort of like today huh?


2) Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites    (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

Clearly Moses and God approves of rape of virgins.

No God clearly didn't approve of this, God did tell Moses to destroy the Midianites and verse 31:16 states that God was angry that they saved the women.  Moses is who told them to take the virgins, the only thing else attributed to God in these verses is that they were to purify themselves according to the law. 

The rest sounds to me like the religious leaders were making it up as they went.



3) More Murder Rape and Pillage   (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery?

This one is a hard question for me.  Times were tough back then, and wars were fought as God worked out the history of His people.  When tribes were destroyed (to make room for the jews) The children and women were left alone.  I think that God took care of them by having the israelites provide for them, else what would happen to them?  I'll tell you what, they would have starved because there was no food, shelters or providers left to care for them.  I think there is an even better answer to this question, but I can't find it right now.  I will have to dig a little to get this out.



4) Laws of Rape   (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

On first look it would appear they are talking rape, but it is consensual sex.  Read verse 25, it is definately talking about rape, if rape is to be also applied to verse 28 why would'nt the author use the same words? 

Also Exodus (22:16-17, "And if a man lures a virgin who is not promised, and lies with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife.  17  If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins.")  gives witness to the the example in verse 28.



5) Death to the Rape Victim   (Deuteronomy 22:23-24

The girl in this example is also not raped, it is consensual.  Verses 25-26 will attest to this.  Also the girl wouldn't be called evil if she hadn't participated in the sin.


6) David's Punishment - Polygamy, Rape, Baby Killing, and God's "Forgiveness" (2 Samuel 12:11-14)

David was punished for the evil he did, and he was punished all the days of his life.  His child was struck ill, the innocent child is God's, I'm sure God has/will take good care of him.  Who are we to question God taking the child from David?


7)  Rape of Female Captives   (Deuteronomy 21:10-14)

Once again God approves of forcible rape.

There is nothing forceable here.  If you are a women back thousands of years ago and the men of your family were killed, you wouldn't be able to survive on your own.  If a member of the conquering army wanted you as a wife, provisions were made that you would live with the man (no sex) for a month and then if you were not compatible then you were free to leave.  The man had no claim to you at all  verse 14


8]  Rape and the Spoils of War (Judges 5:30)

Has nothing to do with God saying to do this, the mother of Sisera was asking using a bit of sarcasm. v28-29



9) Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11)

The poster EB writer in this instance likes to call the maiden a "sex slave"  She was sold as a maid or maidservant, probably not willfully on her part.  But if the master becomes engaged to her.  After this if he changes his mind then he will set her free, if she becomes engaged to his son then he will treat her as a daughter. 


10) God Assists Rape and Plunder (Zechariah 14:1-2)

God didn't assist anything.  God let the people know what judgement was awaiting them because of what they did.  Could God have stopped it?  Sure, but they reaped what they sowed.  And the evil of mankind did the rest.


A person could go into much more detail over these things, I won't.  I have no need to question God in these matters as I know who my God is and trust his wisdom to work things out for the good.   Ray has said pay attention to the words, that is what I tried to do (and I could be wrong.)  I'm no teacher and don't claim to be, but questions are being raised that in my opinion is not even a question.  The language and understanding from then to now is probably the only thing that causes any of us to stop and scratch our heads.  And to give the EB folks any credence is a total waste of time IMO.

And I agree that we should not be judging the poster over this, they are obviously struggling now, but that is of God and nobody here can fix that.

I really want this thread to end now.  These are tough questions to be answered but I'm not sure we are able to answer them all in this age.  And we can only give our opinions anyway, I for one don't trust mine completely, but my spirit isn't fighting me on this either.

Blessings
Craig
« Last Edit: March 29, 2007, 01:18:11 AM by Craig »
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TimothyVI

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Re: How do we handle the hard truths?
« Reply #30 on: March 29, 2007, 09:37:50 AM »

Thank you Kittyhawk,

I said that I wish Ray would write something to help with understanding
the old testament carnage. It appears that he did. I am just not good at finding
these things in his emails. Kat usually helps with that.

Tim
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TimothyVI

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Re: How do we handle the hard truths?
« Reply #31 on: March 29, 2007, 09:54:27 AM »

I'm tiring of this whole discussion,  did anyone actually read what was asked?  All these questions came from a site called evilbible.  This forum is not here to promote any site that is full of lies and blasphamy.  I will revisit the questions, I will not post all the was stated in these "questions"


Hi Craig,

I had never heard of the evil bible site until this post.
I did not realize that any other site was being promoted by sorin.

I only read his personal commentary to see what upset him.
The scriptures that he quoted are in the old testament.

Tim
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TimothyVI

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Re: How do we handle the hard truths?
« Reply #32 on: March 29, 2007, 10:03:09 AM »

I really want this thread to end now.  These are tough questions to be answered but I'm not sure we are able to answer them all in this age.  And we can only give our opinions anyway, I for one don't trust mine completely, but my spirit isn't fighting me on this either.

Blessings
Craig[/color]

Hi Craig,

Of course you can end this thread immediately if you choose.
But I do not think that it has gotten out of hand. I have actually gotten some pretty
good advice from it, and some things to study and work on so that
I am better able to offer help to someone going through what sorin seems to be going through.

When a new Christian starts to see only the evil in God, it is satan working in them.
Satan would love for us to see only bad things in the word of God.
God will draw them back, but He does that many times through His other children.
I still say that it is our duty to study so that we can give answers.
Not having the answers is not an excuse once you know that you do not have that answer.

Tim

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hillsbororiver

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Re: How do we handle the hard truths?
« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2007, 10:26:14 AM »


Hi Craig,

I had never heard of the evil bible site until this post.
I did not realize that any other site was being promoted by sorin.


Tim

Hi Tim,

That and other (more severely) offensive posts had previously been deleted by moderators, the bottom line is that strident proclaimations are not of the same spirit as questions asked in a humble, inquisitive manner.

I think this topic Craig posted a while back is appropriate in answering some of the questions posted lately;

"How This Forum is Moderated"

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3614.0.html

His Peace to you,

Joe
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Jennie

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Re: How do we handle the hard truths?
« Reply #34 on: March 29, 2007, 04:15:37 PM »

I do believe we NEED to know what we believe. That requires study and getting in a quiet place with God. It is fine to fellowship with others and discuss things but it really boils down to that "still small voice" the Bible speaks of. That voice is the Holy Spirit in us. This forum speaks a lot of Babylon and coming out of Babylon. Not all churches are what is seen on t.v. or in towns where they are so huge and take in so much money. How is it that all are lumped together? It is almost like throwing the baby out with the bath water. Since I came back, I don't feel the welcoming and loving spirit I once did. Maybe that is just me being on the outside. Why remove a post if someone is not preaching but just asking questions or sharing their own ideas? Jennie
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: How do we handle the hard truths?
« Reply #35 on: March 29, 2007, 05:17:03 PM »

I am sorry you feel that way about us Jennie! :(  I hope you get right back and comfortable again real soon.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)

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TimothyVI

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Re: How do we handle the hard truths?
« Reply #36 on: March 29, 2007, 05:37:59 PM »

Hi Jennie,
You said "This forum speaks a lot of Babylon and coming out of Babylon. Not all churches are what is seen on t.v. or in towns where they are so huge and take in so much money. How is it that all are lumped together? It is almost like throwing the baby out with the bath water. Since I came back, I don't feel the welcoming and loving spirit I once did."

Some on this forum have left the church, but not all.
I still belong to a small country church. I differ with much of what they preach.
But they are all good people who do a lot of good for our community as well as
other places in the world.
God still has a very active need for the churches. When God is ready to bring
someone to Christ, He usually does it through one of the churches.

Can a person "out grow" the need for a church. Sure he can. But does he have to
outgrow the need for a church in the eyes of God. I think not.

I still belong to a church because I enjoy the fellowship and belonging.
God will not condemn me for that. But on the other hand, if I were to leave my church
tomorrow, and continue to study the word of God, and spend time with hhim in prayer,
then I am certain that he would not condemn me for that either.

It all depends on your position in your journey of being created in His image.

I am sorry that you do not feel the welcoming and loving spirit that you did at one time.
It is still here. But in every gathering of people there are waves of emotions that
roll in and roll out just like the waves on a beach. When they roll in we feel incredible togetherness,
when they roll out we feel alone. It seems different when they go out but I think that we need the waves
to make the beach clean and beautiful.

Welcome back Jennie. ;D

Tim
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hillsbororiver

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Re: How do we handle the hard truths?
« Reply #37 on: March 29, 2007, 07:01:46 PM »

Tim,

Beautiful post.

Joe
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Robin

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Re: How do we handle the hard truths?
« Reply #38 on: March 29, 2007, 07:03:06 PM »

Sometimes God doesn't give me immediate answers to all my questions. Sometimes he holds off on the answer on purpose. I've been through many tests of my faith having to wait for an answer. I put the question before God and then wait. I've waited many years for some answers and gone through a great test of my faith while I was waiting. He has never failed to answer a question yet.

There are many times when he needs to prepare me to receive the truth. Truth to me is the process of being molded into the image of Christ. Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. I'm not always ready to receive him on a deeper spiritual level. The truth that I receive now probably would have killed me 25 years ago. I was not prepared. In the beginning I used to kick and stomp my feet wanting answers "right now". I've learned patience over the years. I know now that the trials prepare me to receive more when I'm ready. When I receive the truth in ground that is prepared it will stay with me and produce fruit. Until then all I can say is I don't know the answer because God hasn't revealed it to me yet. I also try to be accountable with my questions. Sometimes I feel a little desperate in the middle of a trial and ask a question that does not have much faith attached to it, but I try not to ask questions that may weaken someone else's faith. There are some questions the evil one uses on me to attack my faith. I don't want to pass that on to others.

Mark 4  

3Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:
4And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.
5And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:
6But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.
7And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.
8And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.

 9And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
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Jennie

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Re: How do we handle the hard truths?
« Reply #39 on: March 29, 2007, 07:50:23 PM »

I am sorry if I was abrasive or offensive to anyone. I know that all here are"like-minded" and that is the forum rules. I feel strongly that in casting comments about anyone in "Babylon" is a judgemental thing. It seems to be no different than churches saying"if you don't agree with us you are deceived by satan ". Just my country take on it, Jennie
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