Luke 17:20

[Lacey23]

about  Luke 17:20
[20] Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, [21] nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is WITHIN you.

This scritpure just revealed taht the kingdom of God is within us, within our grasp. We just need to get rid of our pride, greed, etc, in order to see it but its already wthin us. at first i thought the kingdom of God was referred to Heaven then i started thinking about Jesus's being ascended to his Father. Why did he have to raise himself up into the clouds if he's to return to the heaven within us, then i realized that the Kingdom of God isn't Heaven, but that the Kingdom of God is within us. All I know is that God and Jesus is in Heaven. I'm trying to understand where Heaven is. People refer heaven as up above, some call it a higher place, maybe a different dimension. I know that God is spirit, and not physical.  Is Heaven the same as Kingdom of God  or is it different? Is Heaven also within us? Please help me understand. Sorry if I 'm starting another post- hope its okay?

Denise

[YellowStone]

Hi Denise, I realize that this is a repost, but the Scriptures answer your question

Good to have you back. I think I remember you.

You asked:

Do you remember the scripture where it talked about Jesus returning to His Father after his resecurection, sp.  and His Father resides in Heaven,and Jesus said Heaven is within us,  It kind of makes it a bit confusing. does it mean GOd is within us, and if God is within us already, then Jesus is within us too. Its not a place. It's just that GOd lives in all of us?

This is really a tough question because it draws on the distinction between Heaven and God's Kingdom.

Luk 17:20  And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

Luk 17:21  Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

This would seem that the Kingdom of God is infact spiritual and although it is within us, it is not yet fully attainable.

Mat 6:10  Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Here we are shown the distinction between the Kingdom and of Heaven. Christ, is not so much asking for us to pray for the coming of the kingdom, (for it is already within us) but rather, that it will be shown to us.

Christ gives us further witness to the kindom being something (spiritual) inside of us when he speaks to the Pharisees.

Mat 23:25  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

When Christ says: "But within" I believe he is saying that although the Pharisees do have the Kingdom of God within them, (possibly because all is within God) their carnal being regarding lust and pride for themselves has all but shut the kingdom out. This is interesting, because on the outside, they must have looked very impressive and knowledgeable. (Sounds like many preachers of today)

But as you say, many believe that Heaven is from above, even Christ used the term.

Jhn 19:11  Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power [at all] against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

But what was Christ really meaning when he said "from above:

Above - anothen {an'-o-then} [509]

1) from above, from a higher place
    a) of things which come from heaven or God
2) from the first, from the beginning, from the very first
3) anew, over again

Could it be that heaven is from "above" inasmuch as it is a higher place or dimension, rather than a place somewhere beyond the furtherest galaxy?

I think this makes a lot of sense, considering that the entire universe is within God. It is my understanding that when the Kingdom is finally made known to us, we will see things for as they truly are for the first time. We cannot even begin to imagine to what extent we have been blinded by sin, lust and pride.

I hope this helps a little Denise,

Your brother in Christ,
Darren

[Kat]

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say—Lo, here! or, There. For lo! the kingdom of God, is, among you. (Rotherham)

Luke 17:21  Nor shall they say, Lo here! or, behold, there! For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst. (MKJV)

It can also be translated 'among' and 'in your midst,' so it shows that it is something that comes near to people as well as being within. Maybe like the Holy Spirit may be with us helping us, before it actually comes indwelling.

but that the Kingdom of God is within us.

Is Heaven the same as Kingdom of God  or is it different? Is Heaven also within us?

Mark 1:15  and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God draws near. Repent, and believe the gospel.

If the Kingdom is drawing near, then it can not be within.

Mat 7:21  Not everyone who says to Me, Lord! Lord! shall enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven.

Here it is called the "kingdom of heaven," using both words together, it is the same.
And also notice "My Father in Heaven", and again in Matt. It says it's about doing the "will of the Father," it's those obeying by the spirit indwelling.

Mat 5:48  Therefore be perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.

So There are many times kingdom of heaven and kingdom of God are used, depending on what is being emphsized. 
They both are talking about the realm of the Father in Heaven.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[rocky]

I find these interesting too:

Col 1:13  Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Phi 2:12  Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

[YellowStone]

Kat my dear sister, you wrote:

So There are many times kingdom of heaven and kingdom of God are used, depending on what is being emphsized.  They both are talking about the realm of the Father in Heaven.

I'm not sure if I agree that the "Kingdom of God" is talking about a realm of the Father in Heaven.

Let us look at how the phrase: "kingdom of God is used.

kingdom (of God) used 71 times

Kingdom basileia {bas-il-i'-ah} [932]

1) royal power, kingship, dominion, rule
    a) not to be confused with an actual kingdom but
        rather the right or authority to rule over a kingdom
    b) of the royal power of Jesus as the triumphant Messiah
    c) of the royal power and dignity conferred on Christians
        in the Messiah's kingdom
2) a kingdom, the territory subject to the rule of a king
3) used in the N.T. to refer to the reign of the Messiah

It would appear that the Kingdom of God is different in context between the Kingdon of Heaven at least some of the time.

Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Did not Christ in effect say: "If I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the royal power, kingship, dominion, rule of God is come upon you." Kingdom in this instance is not a realm.

Christ did not teach us to pray for the coming of Heaven. (which is a realm)

Luk 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

Rather, he differentiated the realm of heaven from that of the coming Kingdom, which we know means the coming royal power, kingship, dominion and rule.

I am not saying that God does not have these same Kingdom attributes in Heaven, where He now rules without question, that would be foolish.

However, are we not trying to the best of our ability and praying heartfelt for God to totally remove Satan from out lives, to remove carnality from our being, so that we can live today under the total rule of God.

All is within God, and God is within all. However, God's Kingdom is not made know to anyone until God drags the said person to him, through Christ.

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

This is when and how one get's their first taste of the Kingdom, or dominion of God; for one begins to see God for who and what he really is and we begin to seek in earnest his Kingdom or rule.

Please let me know what you think of this post as it differs from your take. It is not my wish to offend.

Your brother in Christ,
Love,
Darren

[josh]

Denise,

Hope you don't mind me offering a few thoughts on this subject... here is the verse in question:

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Luke 17:20-21 
And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

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The phrase "Kingdom of God" is found 69 times in the entirety of the scriptures, all 69 occurrences are found in the New Testament.

The phrase "Kingdom of Heaven," is found 31 times in the entirety of the scriptures, again all 31 occurrences are found in the New Testament.

But are these two kingdoms separate entities or are they in fact, one in the same?

Let me offer two proof texts to show that they are one in the same.

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Mark 1:14-15
Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, Repent! For the kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

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The message of the "kingdom of God" and the "kingdom of heaven"  is the message that Christ Himself spoke during his earthly ministry, and like all of the words of Christ they "is, was and will be." (Rev. 1:8 & 16:5)

When Christ says that "the Kingdom of God is within you"... He was not only speaking to the Pharisees, but he "is, was and will be" speaking to all of mankind, who will eventually be brought into the knowledge of God!

The Kingdom of God "is, was and will be" within us! But how?

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Matthew 22:1-14
And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables, and said, The kingdom of Heaven is like a certain king who made a marriage for his son. And he sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they would not come.

Again he sent out other servants, saying, Tell those who are invited, Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatlings are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the marriage. But not caring, they went their ways, one to his field, another to his trading.  And the rest took his servants and treated them spitefully, and killed them.

But when the king heard, he was angry. And he sent out his armies and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
Then he said to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they who were invited were not worthy. Therefore go into the exits of the highways, and as many as you shall find, invite them to the marriage.

So the servants went out into the highways and gathered together as many as they found, both bad and good. And the wedding was filled with reclining guests.

And the king coming in to look over the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. And he said to him, Friend, how did you come in here without having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then the king said to the servants, Bind him hand and foot and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

For many are called, but few chosen.


Matthew 20:1-16
For the kingdom of Heaven is like a man, a house master, who went out early in the morning to hire laborers into his vineyard.

And when he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard. And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the marketplace. And he said to them, You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you. And they went. And he went out about the sixth and ninth hour and did likewise.

And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing idle, and said to them, Why do you stand here all day idle?

They said to him, Because no one has hired us. He said to them, You also go into the vineyard, and you shall receive whatever is right.

So when evening had come, the lord of the vineyard said to his steward, Call the laborers and pay them their wage, beginning from the last to the first.

And when they who were hired about the eleventh hour came, they each one received a denarius. But when the first came, they supposed that they would received more; and they also each one received a denarius.

And receiving it they murmured against the master of the house, saying, These last have worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and heat of the day. But he answered one of them and said, Friend, I do you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius?

Take yours, and go; I will give to this last one the same as to you. Is it not lawful for me to do what I want with my own? Is your eye evil because I am good? So the last shall be first, and the first last, for many are called, but few are chosen.

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Here, in these two parables, we find the infamous words of Christ... "many are called, but few are chosen"  and this is the message that permeates many if not all of the parables of Christ.

The scriptures tell us clearly that in the Kingdom of God/Heaven "many are called, but few are chosen"... but is this calling and choosing a one time occurrence? or an on going process that "is, was and will be" ...

Let's look at a few more parables and see if we can see the "many called, few chosen" and how it "is, was and will be."

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Matthew 13:24-30 
He put out another parable to them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.

But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed darnel among the wheat and went his way. But when the blade had sprung up and had produced fruit, then the darnel also appeared. So the servants of the householder came and said to him, Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? Then where have the darnel come from?

He said to them, An enemy has done this. The servants said to him, Then do you want us to go and gather them up?
But he said, No, lest while you gather up the darnel you also root up the wheat with them.

Let both grow together until the harvest. And in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, First gather together the darnel and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my granary.

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Notice that the fruit and the unfruitful darnel existed and were clearly apparent at the same time, even before the harvest and are allowed to remain and grow together purposefully until the harvest. The existence of both the wheat and the darnel together allows us to see the difference between good and evil.

The "many called, few chosen" are apparent before the harvest (resurrection/judgment) and are allowed to grow together.

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Matthew 13:47 
Again, the kingdom of Heaven is like a net that was cast into the sea, and gathered some of every kind;
which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away.

So it shall be at the end of the world. The angels shall come out and separate the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire. There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

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This is the Kingdom of heaven at work within us... the wheat and the darnel, the good and the bad... is, was and will be removed from our life, purging us... teaching us by the judgment of God.

In the elect, the judgments of God are happening NOW... slowly removing what is opposite of God from our lives. For the remainder of humanity they will be resurrected to this judgment, so that they also will learn righteousness and see the difference between what is wheat and what is darnel in their own lives.

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Isa 26:9 
With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Luke 3:17 
whose fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly purge His floor and will gather the wheat into His storehouse. But He will burn the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Mark 9:49
For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt

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Hope this helps.

God's Peace.
Josh

[andrevan]

Ray mentions somewhere that the elect are "the kingdom of the heavens". Christ brings His kingdom, the elect, with Him when He returns. This appears to fit with most of the replies here. Being part of that kingdom is at hand, today, for anyone who hears the message of Matt 4:17.

God be with you all.
Andrevan.

[Redbird]

God Bless you Gentlemen,

You all continue to amaze me. 

Have a lovely day!  Lisa

[YellowStone]

Thanks Lisa

May you have a blessed day too.

I have given this much thought and contemplation and will agree there is very little (if any) difference in meaning of the terms "Kingdom of God" and "Kingdom of Heaven."

For the word "Kingdom" remains the same throughout (See it's meaning below)

But it is the "Kingdom" of heaven, that is the rule, power, dominion, etc that Christ will bring with him on his return. I do not believe that the Scriptures support that he will bring with him also, the "realm" of heaven, even though, it may become known to us.

Many thanks to all that have posted and shared their insight.

With love,
Darren

[Kat]

Hi Darren,

But it is the "Kingdom" of heaven, that is the rule, power, dominion, etc that Christ will bring with him on his return.

I will agree with you here, Christ will bring the Kingdom with Him when He returns.  But you need to understand what the Kingdom is.

Rev 12:10  Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

Eph 5:5  For you know this, that no fornicator, or unclean person, or covetous one (who is an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

It is a realm, but it is spiritual, and therefore it is not a place, but the dwelling of God and spirit beings and all of God's glory is there.  Notice this vision of Stephen's just before his martyr.

Act 7:55  But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God,
v. 56  and said, "Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!"

It only comes to the flesh to those begotten of The Father as a promise of what is yet to come in the resurrection.   

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone should be loving Me, he will be keeping My word, and My Father will be loving him, and We shall be coming to him and making an abode with him."

It is only by Christ in us that we are given spiritual understanding, so with are able to live our life in Christ, but we are only begotten.

1John 5:1 Everyone who is believing that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God. And everyone who is loving Him Who begets is loving Him also who is begotten by Him. (CLV)

Here are a few definitions I think will help with 'kingdom.'

G932
βασιλεία
basileia
bas-il-i'-ah
From G935; properly royalty, that is, (abstractly) rule, or (concretely) a realm (literally or figuratively): - kingdom, + reign. (Strong's)

king•dom \"king-dem\ n 1 : a country whose head is a king or queen 2 : a realm or region in which something or someone is dominant  (Merriam-Webster's)

realm \"relm\ n 1 : kingdom 2 : sphere, domain  (Merriam-Webster's)

Josh, good post, going through all the parables seemed a little daunting to me 

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[josh]

Kat,

I was home sick yesterday, so I had alot of free time to study =)

How was the study yesterday? Sorry, I missed you guys.

Josh

[Kat]

Hi Josh,

Ray said you weren't well 
It was the regulars.  And we had an interesting topic about dates to remember.  I'm afraid it showed my lack of knowledge there a bit.
Well now we can all have a better frame of reference of the time line of Biblical events.

April 1, 2007 Bible study
http://bible-truths.com/audio/4-01-07_Part1.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/4-01-07_Part2.mp3

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[josh]

Thanks Kat. 

[YellowStone]

Kat you wrote:

I will agree with you here, Christ will bring the Kingdom with Him when He returns.  But you need to understand what the Kingdom is.



This sounds a little harsh my sister.

The meaning as supplied by Strongs does not refference the world Realm or any other word that denotes the same.

Kingdom basileia {bas-il-i'-ah} [932] Strongs

1) royal power, kingship, dominion, rule
    a) not to be confused with an actual kingdom but
        rather the right or authority to rule over a kingdom   
    b) of the royal power of Jesus as the triumphant Messiah
    c) of the royal power and dignity conferred on Christians
        in the Messiah's kingdom
2) a kingdom, the territory subject to the rule of a king
3) used in the N.T. to refer to the reign of the Messiah

This is the second time I have posted this definition, why is it wrong?

I did find the following that seems to support the definition uou provided.

Basileia
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Basileia (an Ancient Greek word meaning royal palace) may refer to:

  a) The royal palace, or citadel, of Atlantis, as described by the Greek philosoper Plato in the Critias
  b) The Kingdom of God (basileia tou theou), or Kingdom of Heaven, in Christian theology
  c) Basileia, Zeus's maid in the play The Birds by Aristophanes

Kat, I believe you are choosing to see only the differences and not the similarities concerning our views.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone should be loving Me, he will be keeping My word, and My Father will be loving him, and We shall be coming to him and making an abode with him."

"Making an abode" does not mean bringing the entire realm of what many consider another dimmension or state. It is not the "realm" that is important, because it is merely the container. Christ did not say, "we will bring heaven with us and make you a container of heaven"

Perhaps the definition of Realm will help.

noun:   the domain ruled by a king or queen
noun:   a knowledge domain that you are interested in or are communicating about
noun:   a domain in which something is dominant

Realm refers to the domain, but not the King. God will be dominant in us, we will be the "Kingdom", because God will be within us, all of his royal power, his kingship, dominion and rule.

God is everywhere, everthing is in God, we are in the Spirit of God. We exist because of God.

Kat, please let us not become devided due to schematics.

I agree with your Scripture from Acts:

Act 7:55  But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God,
Act 7:56  and said, "Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!"

"the heavens" is the realm; however, God and Jesus bith are the power, the glory, rulers of this this realm (or domain) which the rule.

I believe we are saying the same thing yet differ on the meaning of one word, Realm.

Much thanks to you Kat,

Love,
Darren

[Kat]

Hi Darren,

I was not trying to be harsh, I am sorry you feel offended.
But I think we are looking at this subject somewhat differently.
But this seems to be turning into a debate.
Let's just leave it as it is, this has been discussed enough 

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[iris]

What we also have to consider here is that maybe every one's eyes haven't been opened up yet to see. Everyone is not at the same place.

This has been a really good thread and I thank you all for sharing your thoughts. 


Iris

[Lacey23]

Wow, I'm impressed at all the knowledge you guys have. This has been a huge help seeing people's insights on the difference and similarities of the words Kingdom of Heaven and Kingdom of God. I was confused, didn't know if it was the same or if it was different. Thank you guys so much for all the info you guys sent. I guess God hasn't opened my heart to really understand the subject yet but at least he got me curious. That's a start.    You know i've been battling thoughts from within that I had problems with the religions' belief of a HELL. Satan, and all the literal terms they use to scare people into doing what htey want. I've always hated the idea of where God damns 99 percent to a literal hell fire for all eternity when only 1 percent makes it. It kind of makes God look bad big time.  there are sciptures where it says, God will help you if you love him, obey him, etc.  How can people love him, and obey him if their hearts aren't opened to do so? It kind ofmakes it sound like it's your fault that your heart isn't open to accept that or do what God wants you to do. It's kind of cruel and to point death or torture in anyone's face if they dont' accept God is immoral. I've always had a problem with that kind of God. If that was the God who acted like that. I wouldn't be serving him. If he is the one who has a grand plan to SAVE ALL MANKIND, bascially bec he loves us and wants us as family then that's the God i want to love and serve. not the other one that religions out there are teaching.  it digust me how they abuse that gift. you know?  I was thinking, maybe God meant, that the kingdom of God is among us, as of in saying, that the kingdom of God is here and available to come into existance if we all repent from our sins and live in harmony together. What do you guys think?

Denise (Lacey)

[Redbird]

I think that is a great thought, Lacey.

Lisa

[YellowStone]

Lacy you wrote;

I was thinking, maybe God meant, that the kingdom of God is among us, as of in saying, that the kingdom of God is here and available to come into existance if we all repent from our sins and live in harmony together. What do you guys think?

Stacy I think what you state connects great with what Paul said.

Rom 1:19  Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
Rom 1:20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

What has been made known to us so that we are without excuse?   The invisible "things" of him, like his eternal power and Godhead (divine nature.) This fits exactly with the base definition of Kingdom as presented by Strongs, which are his: Royal Power, Kingship, Dominion and Rule

So, if we substitute the word Kingdom in the following Scripture with: Eternal Power, Divine Nature, Kingship, Dominion and Rule, would the intent behind the Scripture be lost or aided?

Mat 6:33 But seek ye first God's eternal power, divine nature, kingship, dominion, rule and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

What things will be added to us? Why the all of the above which is of course the Kingdom of God. We will become more temperate, loving and compassionate. We will begin to loose our old carnal, self centered ways.

It seems that the Kingdom of God is in each of us to a varying degree and is becoming more evident everyday.

I hope this helps your understanding a little.

Your brother in Christ,
Darren

[rocky]

Rom 14:17 for the kingdom of God is not food and drink, but righteousness and peace and joy in holy spirit.

Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed "in us".

1Peter 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; THAT, WHEN his glory shall be revealed, YE~ may be GLAD also with EXCEEDING JOY~ 

CHRIST IN US IS OUR HOPE OF GLORY


2Peter 1:19 We have also a MORE SURE word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a DARK PLACE, UNTIL the day dawn, and THE DAY STAR ARISE in YOUR HEARTS