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Author Topic: talking to my father  (Read 2832 times)

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rvhill

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talking to my father
« on: April 11, 2006, 04:40:58 PM »

I been talking to my father about free will and predestination. My father is a pretty spiritual man, so I do not have any real problem talking about these things with him. We do disagree on predestination. I believe in total predestination, and my father believe in partial predestination. The disagree is some what cyclical, but it never get personal. I have given him some of Rays writing, which he like for the most part. He also has a minimalist view of salvation. Believing that Jesus is the way and only way.

Luke 10:27 He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' [ Deut. 6:5] ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' [ Lev. 19:18] "

Matthew 5.


and that about it. He also does not have traditionalist view of hell. Beyond the predestination question. We mostly agree about things. He also say I am were God wishes me to be in my walk. Although he does not believe in universal salvation he believe there is nothing wrong with my belief in it. He believe in salvation at Judgment, at less for those that have not heard the Word in this life. He also believe that baptism is not need for salvation.
Now to my point he said something which has got me thinking. He never teaches that baptism is not needed, because to teach so may be unsafe. He said I should think about the safety of  teaching universal salvation to those who are unsound in the doctrine of Jesus. Is it safe to teach a milk drinker meat? Most of us on these board have a strong doctrine in Jesus. So there is no harm in us talking about UR, but we should be careful with the new comer to Christ.


That said I have decided to not teach or bring up UR to others unless I feel that they have a strong faith in Jesus and understanding of his word. I can not teach eternal hell, but I feel for most it may be unsafe to also teach UR.

1 Corinthians 3:2I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.

Hebrews 5:12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!


Hebrews 5:13Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness.


1 Peter 2:2 Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation
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lilitalienboi16

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talking to my father
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2006, 05:28:04 PM »

Your right, the biggest thing ive learned trying ot teach others that CHRIST will SAVE EVERYMAN is i get this responce "The devil is taking you over alex".

I told a good friend of mine that im close with, and explained to him briefly of why i believed this, and He told me i had very valide and solid points, well I told him not to tell any of His christians friends because they wont believe Him, and I myself not being very knoweldged in the truth seeing as how i am still learning, He is even less knoweldged so He would be torn apart by those people if he tried to explain it to them the way i did to Him. Nonethe less he went to his mother and told her all about what i said, and she told Him "Hes bieng possesed by a demon hes crazy" and all this stuff, i kinda laughed because isn't that what Jesus told us? Isn't that what the Pharisees did to Jesus himself? I just re-assured HIm that one day When the LORD has brought me into full realization of everything that we would all sit down, and by His grace i would explain to not only him but his mother the truth about our loving God!

The point of that story is ive learned not to discuss such deep spiritual things unto people are ready, and how do i know this? Well i don't, i only got God to guide me!
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ertsky

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talking to my father
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2006, 06:37:29 PM »

Quote
and she told Him "Hes bieng possesed by a demon hes crazy"


they respond exactly the same way here in western australia Alex LOL!

Act 5:32  And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
Act 5:33  When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them.

Act 7:54  When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
Act 7:55  But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Mat 10:16  Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
Mat 10:17  But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

Rom 8:29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30  Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31  What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

f
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zander

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talking to my father
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2006, 08:46:45 AM »

Where in Western Australia are you Ertsky?  I was in Perth and Margeret River  in February.
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Joey Porter

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Re: talking to my father
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2006, 10:30:35 PM »

Quote from: rvhill
Is it safe to teach a milk drinker meat? Most of us on these board have a strong doctrine in Jesus. So there is no harm in us talking about UR, but we should be careful with the new comer to Christ.


That said I have decided to not teach or bring up UR to others unless I feel that they have a strong faith in Jesus and understanding of his word. I can not teach eternal hell, but I feel for most it may be unsafe to also teach UR.

1 Corinthians 3:2I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.

Hebrews 5:12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!


Hebrews 5:13Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness.


1 Peter 2:2 Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation



This is something that I have begun to look into myself.  I believe we need to ask for discernment about this issue.  And if Paul had the understanding of who needed milk, and who needed meat, I believe we need that same understanding.  This could be different for each individual that we encounter.  Here is an interesting passage that may or may not relate directly to those verses you posted above.


Luke 12
42The Lord answered, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time?
 

I know Mike and Ray seem to believe that passage deals with the judgment when we will "those" in the "lake of fire" like Joseph did to his brothers.  But perhaps this also pertains to our lives now.  Perhaps we need to start gaining the understanding of how and when to feed spiritual food now, so that when the time comes for us to reign, we will already have been given the knowledge and understanding that we need in order to do that.  I have some scriptures that could possibly fit this idea:

Luke 16
10"Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much. 11So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches? 12And if you have not been trustworthy with someone else's property, who will give you property of your own?


Also,

1 Corinthians 6
2Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!



There is another interesting portion of scripture that may deal with this issue.

Matthew 7
6"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.


We are not to throw our pearls to the pigs.  I suppose that means that there are certain people with whom we are not to share any type of "meat" or maybe any good news at all.

Continuing on, Jesus says:

7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
 9"Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.


Now, I'm not sure how this all relates directly to the "golden rule," but notice that after Jesus tells us not to cast our pearls to the swine, He goes on to tell us to ask, seek, and knock, and we will receive.  But, receive what?  Perhaps the discernment that Paul had.  Maybe we need to ask for the discernment of who needs bread, who needs fish, who needs meat, who needs milk, etc.
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ciy

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talking to my father
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2006, 12:57:40 AM »

Why not teach UR to people?  I do not believe that UR is necessarily the meat that Paul was talking about.  I believe it the deeper mystery of Christ in you.  If you are one in God who are you?  You all need to meditate on these truths.  The bible is written personally to you.  It is about you and it wants to convince you who you are.  Read John 17:20-26 and put your name in it.  Read Phillippians 2:5-11 and put your name in it.  Do you have the mind of Christ?  We need to "glorify God, which had given such power unto men."

People seem to think if you tell some secular christian the truth of UR then he will live like he wants to because he is not afraid of hell for an eternity. Well the church says you can say an 11 second prayer and live however you want to and go to heaven.  Unless the people know the truth of UR they will never be set free.  You scatter the seed on all soils and let God do the rest.  Speak it.  If you do not tell them who will.  That carnal spirit loves keeping all of you shut up and won't speak to others.  He has you just limiting your talks to these forums.  He has you shut up in here just as if you were shut up in a church building.  A mutual admiration society. Quit worrying about what people think.

Joh 12:42 ΒΆ Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
 43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

Joh 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

We have lost the ability to truly believe.  We must get it back.
The truth makes all free.
Let the Word be true and every man a liar.
CIY
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Michael A.

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talking to my father
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2006, 01:54:44 AM »

Regarding Jesus' command to ask, it is interesting that the scripture also tells us that no man can recieve anything unless it is given him from heaven.

Also from personal experience, I note that people who ask are generally ready to receive, when they ask.

I have found that intercessory prayer is effective when dealing with people who aren't ready to receive.  So instead of trying to give them information they aren't ready for, yet, I pray for them.  Usually, soon after they "ask."  Not always, but most often. Now of those who ask, with them I get a fair hearing.

Remember, our goal is not to give people all the answers, but to point them to the One who IS the answer, and encourage them to develop a personal relationship with God.  That is what God wants, a personal relationship with each of us, not a few "know it alls" taking the place of Jesus Christ.  There are enough of them leading people away from Jesus already, in the Babylonian captivity.

Our goal is to please our Father, and love all with a pure love, from a purified heart, and with a clean conscience.
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rocky

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talking to my father
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2006, 02:02:40 AM »

1Ti 4:10  For to this end we labor and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of them that believe.

1Ti 4:11  These things command and teach.


I personally am reserved on who I tell, not ready yet, from a spiritual growth standpoint, but; we are to command and teach it.
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Phazel

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talking to my father
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2006, 02:52:08 AM »

I have to pray that God leads me correctly.   I found myself gloating when silencing someone who couldn't refute a point and got upset.

I apologized to this person and repented of my pride.  It doesn't matter how right I am if I am not in the spirit of Love.

Roman 3:8
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worm

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talking to my father
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2006, 06:46:19 AM »

the way I understand it is that UR is a "first principle of the doctrine of Christ"

Heb6
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. (KJV)

1 Wherefore, leaving the word dealing with the rudiments of Christ, we should be brought on to maturity, (not again disrupting the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith on God,
2 of the teaching of baptizings, besides the imposition of hands, and the resurrection of the dead, and of judgment eonian). (Concordant)

I understand the meat to be "Christ in us"...continually crucifying thyself so that others may live, ie living out the love of God (which He has shown us) towards the world so that everyone eventually might have the same experience as we have

am i getting this right or not?
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rocky

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talking to my father
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2006, 10:22:14 AM »

Quote from: worm
the way I understand it is that UR is a "first principle of the doctrine of Christ"

Heb6
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. (KJV)

1 Wherefore, leaving the word dealing with the rudiments of Christ, we should be brought on to maturity, (not again disrupting the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith on God,
2 of the teaching of baptizings, besides the imposition of hands, and the resurrection of the dead, and of judgment eonian). (Concordant)

I understand the meat to be "Christ in us"...continually crucifying thyself so that others may live, ie living out the love of God (which He has shown us) towards the world so that everyone eventually might have the same experience as we have

am i getting this right or not?


I agree.  i read some time ago, Mike feels this way too.  Believing in UR sure isn't overcoming, and sure doesn't cure us from the flesh always rearing it's head.
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ciy

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talking to my father
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2006, 12:16:54 PM »

Michael A, rocky, worm, Phazel, and bobbys43 all have great info on this.  Everything we do should be by faith which comes from the spirit.  Anything not of faith is sin.  At the same time we should not judge ourselves by the initial reaction of people.  A seed planted can take time to sprout, but sprout it will.  When you speak the Word it will not return to you void.  If Jesus had been worried about what people thought or their reaction, we may not have the info when have today.  I understand God''s will gets done, but he chose to spread the true gospel by the "foolishness of preaching" not by the wisdom and good sense of preaching.  The sower of seed in the parable did not consider the soil, they scattered it everywhere.  It is very hard for all of us to get completely out of the flesh and walk in the spirit.  We have this tendency to compromise the Word by reasoning with our understanding.  We need to encourage one another to crucify the flesh and not to "love the praise of men more than the praise of God" who again says that

 Mt 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.  12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Don't quench the Holy Spirit when it is encouraging you to act.
CIY
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