How does one arrive at new truths and revelations from God?

[Deborah-Leigh]

Psalm 138 : 2
I will bow down toward Your Holy Temple and will praise Your  Name for Your Love and Your Faithfulness, for You have exalted above ALL THINGS Your Name and your Word.
There is not doubt or debate that the marvels of God's creation demonstrate to us God's love, greatness, power, wisdom and strength.

Beyond the countless different aspects of nature there are two other ways that God makes Himself available to us and this is through His Name and His Word. These He has exalted ABOVE all the demonstrations of nature that witness to His greatness. This is where New Age stops and faith begins. We  can not come to God on the merits of creation. We come to Him and He is made available to us through His word and Name.

John 16:23...I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, that My Father will grant you whatever you ask in My Name, as presenting all that I AM.

Through God's Name and Word He does for us what His creation can not do. His creation can not give us the Creator. The Creator makes Himself available to those He chooses, through His word and Name. This is where God opens to us the secret aspects of His nature that His creation cannot disclose. In His word we can learn of His mercy, grace and unmerited favour that presents all that He is yesterday, today and tomorrow.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[YellowStone]

Arcturus, my dear sister,

What a wonderful post. I agree with most everything you state and only question two little things.

This I promise is not an attack on you; rather, I am struggling with a major insight and I believe all of the answers fit.

Please follow along and please correct me if you see a wrongful statement.

You wrote:

Through God's Name and Word He does for us what His creation can not do. His creation can not give us the Creator. The Creator makes Himself available to those He chooses, through His word and Name. This is where God opens to us the secret aspects of His nature that His creation cannot disclose. In His word we can learn of His mercy, grace and unmerited favour that presents all that He is yesterday, today and tomorrow.


Rom 1:20,  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

I agree with you, when you say that: "creation cannot give us the creator" and dare I say, neither can his word, unless he grants understanding. I believe we are in agreement on this.

However, what do you think are "the secret aspects of His nature that His creation cannot disclose?" 

Romans 1:20 in my mind covers everything including His eternal power and Godhead. Could it be that we open to the truth, because God has already placed his truth in our hearts? Don't you think that looking a creation, the moon, stars, ants etc is totally different than looking at the world?

Jer 31:33  But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people

I also agree with you that we can certainly learn of God's mercy, grace and unmerited favour towards his people in his word, but do you not think that these same attributes are clearly visible in creation?

I do. When we look past the obvious and look at the thought, design and care that went into the countless creatures, even a single cell, I truly believe that we can obtain such understanding as you mention.

Let me say that all is of God. He gives us all that we need, food, shelter, love, understanding and protection. He gives us this because he chooses to. I do not for a moment think that creation should dismiss the Word of God. Regardless where we are in life, and just how God opened our heart and minds to him, whether it be by creation or by written Word. Our charter is to walk with him always by faith, irrespective of the way it was garnered.

2Cr 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

Does this make sense?  I believe that for my part, this thread has run it's course. If anyone would like to discuss it further with me, please PM me.

Your brother in Christ,
Darren

[rk12201960]

Very nicely said Arcturus,
That is where the rubber hits the road as Ray would say.
Once again you've giving me something more to think about.
Thank you.
Your brother in Christ
Randy   

[josh]

Darren,

I have spent this afternoon reading over this thread... studying the subject at hand, as I am sure you have been since you made your original statement:

"What I am going to say will no doubt cause some discussion, but I believe from the very center of my being, which is God and his Son, that the truth was always in me and always available to me."

I want to be careful of how I give an answer... everyday I visit this forum and I see that there are usually about twice as many guests here reading as there are members. Many of these guests are reading not only our current conversations, but also reading far back into the archives of conversations that we the members have long forgotten. It is for this reason that we should all be aware of our guests and for their sake and our own we must keep our discussions scripturally grounded.

Several posts back... you brought up Jeremiah 31 as a proof text that God has already written His law on our hearts.

Here is your statement:

"'Jer 31:33  But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.'

I think the real question is: Did God write his truth in the hearts of his people or did he not?

I firmly believe that He did."

Darren do you believe that he "did" or do you believe that he is, was and will be writing His law on our hearts? Do you believe this was a one time event somewhere off in the distant past... ?

Let's look at the passage again from Jeremiah:

Jeremiah 31:33-34
33: But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34: And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, `Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

Where do you see it stated that God "has written" His law on our/their Hearts? It's not there... not even in the original text...

Here is how it appears in the Hebrew in its original order:

"has this the-covenant which I-shall-cut with house-of Israel after the-days the-those averment-of Yahweh I give >> law-of-me within-them and-on heart-of-them I-shall-write-her and-I-become for Elohim  and-they they-shall-become to-me for-people"

Notice again that the "I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts" is still in the indefinite tense"...

Furthermore, you then make this statement concerning Psalms 19:

"The truths that are to be found in all of creation (heavens, firmament, clouds) are in Davids mind (mine also) are more valuable than fine gold and sweeter to the heart than any other (wordly) word / doctrine. They are TRUTH."

I have again read and re-read this Psalms 19 to see where you are seeing that God has placed the truth in us, so that "the truth was always in me and always available to me."

Here is Psalms 19, in it's entirety:

Psalms 19
0: To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David.
1: The heavens are telling the glory of God; and the firmament proclaims his handiwork.
2: Day to day pours forth speech, and night to night declares knowledge.
3: There is no speech, nor are there words; their voice is not heard;
4: yet their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun,
5: which comes forth like a bridegroom leaving his chamber, and like a strong man runs its course with joy.
6: Its rising is from the end of the heavens, and its circuit to the end of them; and there is nothing hid from its heat.
7: The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul; the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;
8: the precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes;
9: the fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever; the ordinances of the LORD are true, and righteous altogether.
10: More to be desired are they than gold, even much fine gold; sweeter also than honey and drippings of the honeycomb.
11: Moreover by them is thy servant warned; in keeping them there is great reward.
12: But who can discern his errors? Clear thou me from hidden faults.
13: Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me! Then I shall be blameless, and innocent of great transgression.
14: Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my rock and my redeemer.

Notice that the "ordinances of the Lord" which are" true and righteous altogether" did not originate in David's mind or from within his being, but that God revealed this to him by "the heavens telling the glory of God and the firmament proclaiming his handiwork."

Darren, there is no doubt that God has chosen His elect even before the foundations of the earth... but to day that he has already placed His truth in them nullifies the process of sanctification and the learning of righteousness in our lives during this present age.

John 17:1-26
1: When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven and said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify thy Son that the Son may glorify thee,
2: since thou hast given him power over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom thou hast given him.
3: And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.
4: I glorified thee on earth, having accomplished the work which thou gavest me to do;
5: and now, Father, glorify thou me in thy own presence with the glory which I had with thee before the world was made.
6: "I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou gavest me out of the world; thine they were, and thou gavest them to me, and they have kept thy word.
7: Now they know that everything that thou hast given me is from thee;
8: for I have given them the words which thou gavest me, and they have received them and know in truth that I came from thee; and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9: I am praying for them; I am not praying for the world but for those whom thou hast given me, for they are thine;
10: all mine are thine, and thine are mine, and I am glorified in them.
11: And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.
12: While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13: But now I am coming to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14: I have given them thy word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15: I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one.
16: They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17: Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth.
18: As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.
19: And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.
20: "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word,
21: that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22: The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,
23: I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.
24: Father, I desire that they also, whom thou hast given me, may be with me where I am, to behold my glory which thou hast given me in thy love for me before the foundation of the world.
25: O righteous Father, the world has not known thee, but I have known thee; and these know that thou hast sent me.
26: I made known to them thy name, and I will make it known, that the love with which thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them."

Darren, look at verse 17... notice that it is the word of God that is truth... that the Lord has prayed for those that belong to God so that they may be "sanctified" in and consecrated in truth"... for they are not yet one, even as the Father and the Son are one.

Darren, you state that: "Of course I cannot say I could voice everything, for I never once considered that Jehovah of the OT and Jesus Christ of the NT were one and the same, BUT the moment I heard it from Ray, I knew it to be true. I knew all of the contentious Scriptures that seemed to contradict, so I guess you could say I knew the truth when I heard it."

But can you claim that you already possessed the sum of the word of God... before God led you to open up the scriptures and actually read and understand what they say?

Psalms 119:160
The sum of Thy word is truth, And to the age is every judgment of Thy righteousness!

John 14:5-6
5: Thomas said to him, "Lord, we do not know where you are going; how can we know the way?"
6: Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, He is the way, THE TRUTH and the life... and the SUM OF HIS WORD IS TRUTH... do you believe that you possessed this before God led you to read the scriptures?

What troubles me most about this entire thread... is that Darren, to say that the truth has "always been in you and available to you"... and that "The truths that are to be found in all of creation (heavens, firmament, clouds) are in Davids mind (mine also)..." sound as though you are already sure of your election?

Let us not forget the words of Paul...

1 Corinthians 9:26-27
26: Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air;
27: but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

Let us seek to make our election sure... lest after preaching to others we ourselves should become disqualified.

God's Peace.
Josh

[Deborah-Leigh]

Darren

I think Josh and all the other brothers and sisters here have very kindly, soberly and thoughtfully given you enough to think about without me having to now answer your questions which answers would pale by contrast to the wisdom and insight already offered to you.

Suffice to say that God's Word does not return to Him empty, and the Word was with God, (Jn 1:1 ) and the Word was God (Jn 1:1) and the Word was made flesh, (Jn 1 : 14)  and His Name was called The Word of God, ( Rev 19 : 13) and His Name shall be in their foreheads. (Rev 22 : 4)

Rev 15 : 4 Who shall not reverence and glorify Your Name, O Lord? For You only are holy.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[YellowStone]

Josh, I will respond to your post because you have obviously put a great deal of effort (through the grace of God) into it.

You said:

Notice that the "ordinances of the Lord" which are" true and righteous altogether" did not originate in David's mind or from within his being, but that God revealed this to him by "the heavens telling the glory of God and the firmament proclaiming his handiwork."

Well of course!!   Honestly Josh, isn't this what I said. Do you really believe that I think Man is responsible for his learning the truth? It's not what I said brother.

Darren, you state that: "Of course I cannot say I could voice everything, for I never once considered that Jehovah of the OT and Jesus Christ of the NT were one and the same, BUT the moment I heard it from Ray, I knew it to be true. I knew all of the contentious Scriptures that seemed to contradict, so I guess you could say I knew the truth when I heard it."

But can you claim that you already possessed the sum of the word of God... before God led you to open up the scriptures and actually read and understand what they say?

No Josh, I never once said that I had the "sum" of the Word of God, I am sorry that you thought I did. But let me ask you this Josh.

How does God upload his truth into you? Does he use a wireless, broadband connection. Is His words encrypted with 2400 bit encryption. Do they float through billions of lightyears to reach your heart. Or are they already there? We are in God, perhaps he just removes the darkness so that we can see the truth for what it is. Why then is the truth so comfortable, so perfect? How can we be so sure it is truth? God grants truth, can he not also hide it?

What troubles me most about this entire thread... is that Darren, to say that the truth has "always been in you and available to you"... and that "The truths that are to be found in all of creation (heavens, firmament, clouds) are in Davids mind (mine also)..." sound as though you are already sure of your election?

Josh, for you to even think such a thing just shows that the words that I type do not match the words of my heart. If you believe that I am certain of my election then you surely do not know me at all

But can you claim that you already possessed the sum of the word of God... before God led you to open up the scriptures and actually read and understand what they say?

Your words brother Josh, I never said this or implied it. Infact, I did say that the truth I believe I have which is God, has not yet been revealed to me so that I could understand. I never once said I knew it all, I never once said anyone is wrong. I was sharing brother Josh and I said nothing like what you accuse me for.

I will admit that it seems I was mistaken regarding my rendering of Jer 31 and Heb 8

I have checked many translations regarding the next Scripture, and cannot find conclusive evidence regarding the correct translation.

Psa 51:6  Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden [part] thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

I see some translations saying "thou shalt make me to know wisdom" while others say "you are making me know wisdom" (words mine)

So Josh, I thank you for shedding the light on these scriptures.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, He is the way, THE TRUTH and the life... and the SUM OF HIS WORD IS TRUTH... do you believe that you possessed this before God led you to read the scriptures

Josh let me say something here. I have been reading the bible for almost 40 years. Did God first lead me to it or not? If he did, according to his plan, then I certainly DID NOT reach any kind of realization of truth. Note I never once said I did.

Let me share something with you. I read the Bible, I was taught that the same Scripture could say 3 different things. Oh I revered the Bible, not that I understood it, but rather it was the word of God. God never changes, yet it seemed His word changed as many times as people who read it.

I know that God has been in my heart for as long as I can remember. I can truthfully say to you that I do not know a time when he was not. Think on this for a while, please. I knew when God was close, and I knew the times I tried to walk alone, defiant, proud and conceited. Who was I kidding? He was with me always.

Am I wrong or foolish to tell you that God has blessed me repeatedly throughout my life thus far. I trust Him explicitly, I used to seek him in countless books and never grew closer, actually He pulled away. Josh, I was searching for something but I didn't know what; God was with me all the while. It wasn't until I stopped seeking Him with my eyes and hands but rather my heart that His truths were revealed.

Perhaps I am the only one who feels that when truth is discovered it is like darkness being pulled away and His truth beams outward from within me, not inward. This is simply how it is for me.

I am not saying anyone is wrong, and I am not saying that I am special nor that I am even one of his chosen, let alone his elected. I would never do such a thing, for who am I to question God's plan for me. I have no reason to worry or be afraid, for the darkness that was once within me is being pushed aside most everyday.

I hope this leaves you with a greater understanding of what I was saying. I cannot say when God was first revealed to me; it truly feels like He has always been with me. I can however, tell you the first time I discovered a like minded person who at least spoke the words within my heart, and that was when I read the first article of Ray's. I knew I wasn't alone.

God continues to bend, twist and shape me, for brother, I am a long way from perfect.

May God continue to bless you my brother,
Your brother in Christ.

Darren

[YellowStone]

Darren

I think Josh and all the other brothers and sisters here have very kindly, soberly and thoughtfully given you enough to think about without me having to now answer your questions which answers would pale by contrast to the wisdom and insight already offered to you.

Suffice to say that God's Word does not return to Him empty, and the Word was with God, (Jn 1:1 ) and the Word was God (Jn 1:1) and the Word was made flesh, (Jn 1 : 14)  and His Name was called The Word of God, ( Rev 19 : 13) and His Name shall be in their foreheads. (Rev 22 : 4)

Rev 15 : 4 Who shall not reverence and glorify Your Name, O Lord? For You only are holy.

Peace to you

Arcturus

Arcturus, I can feel your love.

Thank you my sister,

Your brother in Christ,
Darren

[SeeksAllTruth]

I believe that we the true brethren can find ourselves with God at the very begining.  Ephesians Chapter One  Verses 3 through 14.  Verse 4 says For He chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight.  But prior to the Holy Spirit teaching me this, I didnot have spiritual ears to hear as Satan was holding me captive through my mind which of course is "fleshy intellect".  So when I read verse 4 in particular, I see God the father having known us long before we were born.  Amen...?

May God's Glory Rest Upon You,
Bruce

[iris]

Hi Bruce,

Welcome to the forum! Glad you're here.
Thanks for the scriptures.
Ephesians 1:4 is a powerful and humbling scripture;
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Thanks
Iris

[Redbird]

Bruce,

I agree with Iris. And welcome in His name.

Lisa

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Bruce

Welcome! As our sisters observe, it is truly wonderful that we can see the Sovereignty of God and that He sees the beginning from the end! This is awesome as we contemplate that there is no such thing as free will OUTSIDE of the plan of God. God Plans everything, knows everything before it happens and will save every one in the end through HIS refining fire and gracious judgements.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[SeeksAllTruth]

Arcturus,

Thanks for the kind welcome.  I thought your reply was worded wonderfully.  Yes I too believe that our God not only created us but in Ephesians Chapter 1 I see how God saw into eternity future and past.  My fleshly mind has trouble comprehending that but the Holy Spirit within me knows this is the truth.  God Bless You Brother!

Bruce

[Deborah-Leigh]

 

Bruce...I have had this problem in the past too. When I was in the Financial world my staff called me SIR. I was a real task master and punctuality was a knife edge as were my competitive edges! I was the boss so I guess they were trying to flatter me or they just considered me less than soft!

I have had a hilarious time here in the Forum when other members have assumed that I am male!   I take it as the highest compliment thou' bro'  but I have to say I am very female and I love all the feminine aspects of being a woman. I have learnt to see through sentimental frills and familiarity that often cover the wolves teeth! and breed contempt! I guess that is why I am sometimes considered less sentimental than my sisters and brothers when in fact my strength in Christ covers my very weak and sentimental heart. My strength is Christ and my talents are His gifts to me. Without Him and His gifts I am just a mess!

I pray to do well with what I have, to encourage, edify and exhort where He requires me to be loyal to Him and singleminded upon His plans and will for me. I pray for that! I know our fellowship is with HIM for without Him we have only the counterfeit!

Peace to you bro' from your sister

Arcturus

[gmik]

  Arc you are too funny!!!

Hi Bruce & welcome.

[SeeksAllTruth]

Arc,  Please accept my apology for assuming you as a male.  Now even though you are my sister in Christ Jesus, we are still the brethren    Thanks for setting me straight sister!  Children Of God...Amen?

In Christ Jesus,
Bro Bruce

[Deborah-Leigh]

You only flattered me Bruce! so thank you!

Children of God alright!    Amen

Peace to you

Arcturus