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Author Topic: Tithing and such....  (Read 2598 times)

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Craig

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Tithing and such....
« on: April 26, 2007, 10:00:14 PM »

Wow!  And in this person's mind, he thinks he has really stated the Truth of God straight from the Scriptures. I think it time to read The Jabberwocky again. Unblievable!
Ray



    okay so I am pretty sure it would take an act of God himself to change the way you think-but then again, that is up to you. Tithing IS scriptural (I am not a pastor but just a person in the church and I pay my tithes as best I can). I didn't have time to read all of your stuff on "tithing is unscriptural" thing but I got the jist of it...
     
    First, you are wrong when you say NO ONE has seen God face to face. MOSES DID! (oh and by the way, the KJV is a less accurate translation of the original text as compared with most other modern translations). Numbers 12:1-9. READ IT!
     
    okay, so, Indeed most of the Law of Moses is not observed today-that would be absurd right? Living sacrifices, burnt offerings, all those wired laws. But then there are the ten commandments. basically when you say that the Law of Moses doesn't stand anymore, then we don't have to obey the ten commandments. Now we are not under the law of Moses but under Grace, and loving people as we love ourselves uphold the law and the profits. But the 10 commandments are no less Holy! Everything that was done in the Old Testament was done and happened as a "Type". in other words, to BE AN EXAMPLE as to how we are to live Hold lives, pleasing and acceptable to God (I am not quoting scripture to mean anything there). So tithing to the Levites so they could live is a type (example) for Christians today to give to the leader of the Church (pastor(S)). WHY? because the Levite's portion was God-theybelonged to God and they did His work-the Ministry. Well, so are our pastors today! Their full time occupation (now, not in it ofr the money, but how do they survive with no job and being a full time pastor because let's face it, being a pastor-a good one mind you-is a full time position) is to do ministry. How are they to survive? WITH THE TITHES OF THE CHURCH! and a tenth of THAT they even give to God!
     
    now for the isrealites counting their stock-NOT TITHE because they don't have 10 cattle or whatever?!? you are only speculating. you can't tell me that was a revelation from God. the only way to tithe 10 percent of something like that is to count how many and then do it. That's probably when they counted out 10 heads of whatever. And hear this...wealth to people back then WAS livestock and food and plunder-tho more you had the more wealthy you were. Today, that consists of MONEY! and what if it is a car you give, or your time, or something else-well, a car costs money, sacrificing time is money lost...you can't tell me or anyone else that the Israelites never tithed money-that was their money. they traded with livestock and furs and whatever they had that had a use. for us today, that is money.
     
    and for the Malachi Prophecy-you are SO WRONG! when you started asking the question, "who is cursing whom", you are implying that Isreal is not in the fault. HELLO?!? GOD is speaking to Isreal! not the other way around! in my Bible (NIV study Bible), all words spoken by God are underlined-and this WHOLE passage is underlined! God says, "Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me. But you ask, 'How do we rob you?' "In tithes and offerings. You are under a curse-the whole nation of you-because you are robbing me. Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there my be food in my house. GOD speaking to ISREAL. not the other way around. this scripture is so easy. Then God says to test him in this and see if he wont bless you.
     
    Okay, so the new testament never says that tithing is mandatory. BUT you are teaching rebellion in people and that no one should give anything at all! Now I don't know if God will send someone to hell because he/she never tithed-frankly I don't care. well, I would if I knew I would God to hell. But I do know that I, and many other people, tithe because it is a conviction God has placed on our hearts. so it therefore becomes a command of God to tithe. It teaches good stewardship, it teaches discipline, and most importantly, is shows-if given with a cheerful heart-that the person is 100% submitted to Christ and truly lives his/her life for him-it is an act of obedience. Obedience is worship. ROM 12: 1 (which you WAY took out of context...it didn't even say what you said it did): Therefore, I urge you, Brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God-this is your spiritual act of worship.
    Hello?! obedience is worship to God. to be a living sacrifice we must obey God's Word.
     
    you can't credibly say that Tithing is unscriptural. you can't say that it doesn't apply to us because when it was commanded in the old test. it didn't apply to us-only them (how then can you say any Isaiah prophecy has anything to do with the end times and the destruction of the twin towers or other end time stuff?). EVERYTHING that applied to us applies to them-weather literally such as the ten commandments, tithing, faith, etc. or typically (as an example).
     
    why do you try to impose all this doctrinal stuff when these are not the important things of Christianity? REALSTIONSHIP WITH CHRIST is most important, and then telling people what jesus did and how they can have a relationship with him too! this is important. these things will get you to heaven, not a bunch of doctrines that know right, wrong, or not at all pretty much don't do anything (unless taken to extreme of course). now I don't want you to think I'm judging you-that's God's place. But I wrote this email because you are wrong in many ways in your doctrine and that you need to stop imposing it on other people and leading them down a wrong way of thinking.
     
    micah
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Craig

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Re: Tithing and such....
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2007, 07:23:58 PM »

Dear Micah:  I will make a few COMMENTS in your email.......

    okay so I am pretty sure it would take an act of God himself to change the way you think-but then again, that is up to you.
     
    COMMENT:  Micah, do you know what a "contradiction" is?  "it would take an act of God Himself" to change the way I think, but "that is up to ME?"
     
     Tithing IS scriptural (I am not a pastor but just a person in the church and I pay my tithes as best I can).
     
    COMMENT:  Whoa, whoa, whoa, Micah!  You pay your tithes "as BEST YOU CAN?"  No, Micah, that won't cut it. If you are a Christian, then you PAY YOUR TITHE NO MATTER WHAT, seeing that to them it is a LAW, the breaking of which will cause you to be "CURSED WITH A CURSE," and breaking a law of God is a sin, which will SEND YOU TO HELL.  You really need to "pay" closer attention to your Christian doctrines when you only try to "pay" your tithes "as best you can."
     
     I didn't have time to read all of your stuff on "tithing is unscriptural" thing but I got the jist of it..
     
    COMMENT:  No, Micah, you DO have the time, but you chose rather to waste that time writing a bunch of unscriptural nonsense to me instead. And NO, you did not even get the "gist" of what my paper teaches. .
     
    First, you are wrong when you say NO ONE has seen God face to face. MOSES DID! (oh and by the way, the KJV is a less accurate translation of the original text as compared with most other modern translations). Numbers 12:1-9. READ IT!
     
    COMMENT:  Oh really? And this is an area of your expertise, is it? And did God speak directly to you concerning these matters as He did to Moses.
     
    okay, so, Indeed most of the Law of Moses is not observed today-that would be absurd right?
     
    COMMENT:  Your words not mine.
     
     Living sacrifices, burnt offerings, all those wired laws.
     
    COMMENT:  If you feel comfortable in accusing God of having "wired [weird?] laws," be my guest, but maybe try not to stand too close to tall trees during lightning storms.
     
     But then there are the ten commandments. basically when you say that the Law of Moses doesn't stand anymore, then we don't have to obey the ten commandments.
     
    COMMENT:  You won't find any such nonsense on my site.  You are making all this stuff up, right?
     
     Now we are not under the law of Moses but under Grace, and loving people as we love ourselves uphold the law and the profits. But the 10 commandments are no less Holy! Everything that was done in the Old Testament was done and happened as a "Type". in other words, to BE AN EXAMPLE as to how we are to live Hold lives, pleasing and acceptable to God (I am not quoting scripture to mean anything there). So tithing to the Levites so they could live is a type (example) for Christians today to give to the leader of the Church (pastor(S)). WHY? because the Levite's portion was God-theybelonged to God and they did His work-the Ministry. Well, so are our pastors today! Their full time occupation (now, not in it ofr the money, but how do they survive with no job and being a full time pastor because let's face it, being a pastor-a good one mind you-is a full time position) is to do ministry. How are they to survive? WITH THE TITHES OF THE CHURCH! and a tenth of THAT they even give t o God!
     
    COMMENT:  No, Micah, the New Testament tells us how the Church of Christ is to be supported. It is by "...cheerful GIVERS," not "...cheerful TITHE-PAYERS."  That's why Paul and the others WORKED to support most of their own ministry, and they never ever taught the Gentiles to tithe, and besides, MONEY was never a titheable commodity--read your Bible.
     
    now for the isrealites counting their stock-NOT TITHE because they don't have 10 cattle or whatever?!? you are only speculating. you can't tell me that was a revelation from God. the only way to tithe 10 percent of something like that is to count how many and then do it.
     
    COMMENT:  Fair enough, so Micah, just how does "the tenth cow or sheep of a heard pass under the rod," when there are only NINE in total?  How does one tithe on NINE sheep. Which one gets "cut up?"
     
     That's probably when they counted out 10 heads of whatever. And hear this...wealth to people back then WAS livestock and food and plunder-tho more you had the more wealthy you were. Today, that consists of MONEY! and what if it is a car you give, or your time, or something else-well, a car costs money, sacrificing time is money lost...you can't tell me or anyone else that the Israelites never tithed money-that was their money. they traded with livestock and furs and whatever they had that had a use. for us today, that is money.
     
    COMMENT:  Well thank you for that bit of historical information, Micah, I was unaware that the Israelites were great "fur traders," but if you say so.  Listen, the workers who got paid a wage, IN MONEY, did not tithe that money to the levites. You know nothing of the tithing law.
     
    and for the Malachi Prophecy-you are SO WRONG! when you started asking the question, "who is cursing whom", you are implying that Isreal is not in the fault. HELLO?!? GOD is speaking to Isreal! not the other way around!
     
    COMMENT: You are not a careful reader, Micah. I never suggested that Israel is "doing the talking" in these verses. Of course it is God speaking, but God is NOT saying, as your supposedly more accurate translations tell you, "Ye ARE cursed with a curse..."  The word "are" is nowhere to be found in the Hebrew of that verse.  The Hebrew says, "YE curse with a curse...."
     
    The "Ye" is all Israel, and the One they curse is GOD.  Here are two proper translations of this verse:


    "With a curse YOU CURSE ME, and ME you are defrauding--the nation, all of it" (Concordant Literal Old Testament).

    "With a curse, HAVE YE BEEN CURSING, and yet, ME, have ye been defrauding, the whole nation" (Rotherham's Emphasized Bible).
     in my Bible (NIV study Bible), all words spoken by God are underlined-and this WHOLE passage is underlined! God says, "Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me. But you ask, 'How do we rob you?' "In tithes and offerings. You are under a curse-the whole nation of you-because you are robbing me. Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there my be food in my house. GOD speaking to ISRAEL. not the other way around. this scripture is so easy. Then God says to test him in this and see if he wont bless you.
     
    COMMENT:  You are wasting time arguing with yourself, as I never said those were not the Words of God.
     
    Okay, so the new testament never says that tithing is mandatory. BUT you are teaching rebellion in people and that no one should give anything at all!
     
    COMMENT:  Micah, you lie, you lie, you lie!  I have NEVER EVER said or even suggested or hinted that anyone should not be a generous giver. I have a whole section in my tithing paper on "HOW TO PAY THE CHURCH UTILITY BILLS," etc. I have a whole section on being a generous GIVER.  But, as you said, you didn't take the time to read my "stuff" but you got the "gist."  You got nothing but a rotten attitude.
     
     Now I don't know if God will send someone to hell because he/she never tithed-frankly I don't care.
     
    COMMENT:  Is this your true character shining through, Micah?  You "DON'T CARE" if people are sent to hell to be tortured for all eternity?  YOU DON'T CARE!?  Well, I CARE, and that is why I expose all this evil and damnable nonsense that people like you teach.
     
     well, I would if I knew I would God to hell. But I do know that I, and many other people, tithe because it is a conviction God has placed on our hearts. so it therefore becomes a command of God to tithe. It teaches good stewardship, it teaches discipline, and most importantly, is shows-if given with a cheerful heart-that the person is 100% submitted to Christ and truly lives his/her life for him-it is an act of obedience. Obedience is worship. ROM 12: 1 (which you WAY took out of context...it didn't even say what you said it did): Therefore, I urge you, Brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God-this is your spiritual act of worship.
    Hello?! obedience is worship to God. to be a living sacrifice we must obey God's Word.
     
    COMMENT:  "Hello" yourself!  I quoted that Scripture exactly as it is found in the Bible, and I took nothing "out of context, as if you have a clue as to what "context" even means.
     
    you can't credibly say that Tithing is unscriptural. you can't say that it doesn't apply to us because when it was commanded in the old test. it didn't apply to us-only them (how then can you say any Isaiah prophecy has anything to do with the end times and the destruction of the twin towers or other end time stuff?). EVERYTHING that applied to us applies to them-weather literally such as the ten commandments, tithing, faith, etc. or typically (as an example).
     
    COMMENT:  Like ALL of God's teachings, we are now to apply a much higher standard than was required of Israel without God's Spirit. We give cheerfully to those in need, but we certainly do not financially support MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, as that is a SIN!
     
    why do you try to impose all this doctrinal stuff when these are not the important things of Christianity? REALSTIONSHIP WITH CHRIST is most important, and then telling people what jesus did and how they can have a relationship with him too! this is important. these things will get you to heaven, not a bunch of doctrines that know right, wrong, or not at all pretty much don't do anything (unless taken to extreme of course). now I don't want you to think I'm judging you-that's God's place. But I wrote this email because you are wrong in many ways in your doctrine and that you need to stop imposing it on other people and leading them down a wrong way of thinking.
     
    COMMENT:  I am sorry if you feel "going to hell for not tithing" is more important than being spiritually converted.  Do you really believe that you can discount everything I said in my tithing paper by your pious remark that, "Relationship with Christ" is most important. How does that in anyway deny the truth that tithing of money is unscriptural under the New Covenant? I don't mean to belittle you, Micah, but your cocky know-it-all condemnation of what I teach regarding tithing is over-the-top nonsense.  But not to worry, I am not upset with you. Every once and awhile I answer detractor's emails such as yours, just to show my readers how unscriptural and bizarre my detractors really are.
    God be with you,
    Ray

     
    micah
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