bible-truths.com/forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Forum related how to's?  Post your questions to the membership.


.

Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Indignation & Wrath vs. Affliction & Tribulation  (Read 5938 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Indignation & Wrath vs. Affliction & Tribulation
« on: May 03, 2007, 11:29:23 PM »

From Ray's article;

Exposing the "Secret Rapture" Theory



http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm


At this point in our discussion, it will be helpful to define some words that are often interchanged as if they are virtually one and the same. It is important that we understand the meanings of important words that are wrongly applied by those who teach the rapture:

1. Affliction: Keyword Concordance, anguish, persecution, tribulation, trouble, ill treatment, suffering. Webster’s: affliction, any cause of pain or suffering.

AND

2.Tribulation: Keyword Concordance, affliction Webster’s: tribulation, great misery or distress

VERSUS

3.Wrath: Keyword Concordance, fury, indignation, vexation Webster’s: wrath, intense anger, rage, fury, vengeance

AND

4.Indignation: Keyword Concd., anger, vengeance, wrath Webster’s: Adj.-- indignation, expressing anger especially unjust or mean actions. Noun-- righteous anger.

Although there is somewhat of an overlap in defining these words, we can still get a clear picture as to how these words are used in the Scriptures. Notice that "affliction" and "tribulation" are nearly synonymous. Notice also, that "wrath" and "indignation" are nearly synonymous. "Affliction" can be defined as "tribulation," and "tribulation" can be defined as "affliction." Likewise, "wrath" can be defined as "indignation," and "indignation" can be defined as "wrath." But, the first two words, "affliction and tribulation" are not synonymous with the second two words, "wrath and indignation." There is a giant difference in their usage, and especially when used in a prophetic setting. I hope I haven’t lost anyone. Reread this a few times and you’ll get it.

It is when we fail to keep these prophetic events where they belong that we end up with ideas such that Christ is coming back a second time twice.

The Scripture says,

"For God did not appoint us to INDIGNATION ..." (I Thes. 5:9).

It nowhere says that God has not appointed us to trials, troubles, pain, suffering, heartache, disappointment, disease, death, or hurricanes! In fact, Paul himself, tells us that we enter the Kingdom of God by going through a whole lot of these things (Acts 14:22).

I personally, presently, am going through trials, troubles, pain, suffering, heartache, disappointment, disease, and two very near death experiences in the past few years, not to mention hurricane Andrew. But, nonetheless, it is a great comfort to me to know that God has not appointed me to His indignation. Believers are chastised by a wise Father out of LOVE, the nations will be punished by an angry God out of VENGEANCE. Can we not see the difference? (Actually God’s "anger and vengeance" is also out of love, but the nations will certainly not initially perceive it as such).

When we look at all the ways that "indignation" is used in the Greek Scriptures, it becomes overwhelmingly clear that "indignation" is used of God to punish the wicked and stubborn. Indignation is not a direct form of chastisement. No matter how many, how much, how often, how severe your sufferings and tribulations may be, if you love God you can be absolutely guaranteed that not one iota of it is coming upon you in the form of God’s indignation. Here then is how, on whom, and when God pours out His indignation:

"Progeny of vipers! Who intimates to you to be fleeing from the impending indignation?" (Matt. 3:7).

"For God’s indignation is being revealed from heaven on all the irreverence and injustice of men ..." (Rom. 1:18).

"Yet, in accord with your hardness and unrepentant heart you are hoarding for yourself indignation in the day of indignation and revelation of the just judgment of God ..." (Rom. 2:5).

"Much rather, then, being now justified in His blood, we shall be saved from indignation, through Him" (Rom. 5:9).

"Now if God, wanting to display His indignation and to make His powerful doings known, carries, with much patience, the vessels of indignation ..." (Rom. 9:22).

"Being at peace with all mankind, you are not avenging yourselves, beloved, but be giving place to His indignation, for it is written, "Mine is vengeance! I will repay! The Lord is saying" (Rom. 12:19).

"Let no one be seducing you with empty words, for because of these things the indignation of God is coming on the sons of stubbornness" (Eph. 5:6).

"Deaden, then, your members that are on the earth: prostitution, uncleanness, passion, evil desire and greed, which is idolatry, because of which the indignation of God is coming on the sons of stubbornness ..." (Col. 3:5-6).

"Wherefore, ‘I am disgusted with this generation, and said, Ever are they straying in heart; Yet they know not My ways,’ As I swear in My indignation, If they shall be entering into My rest ...!" (Heb. 3:10-11).

"Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him Who is sitting on the throne, and from the indignation of the Lambkin, for the great day of Their indignation came, and who is able to stand? (Rev. 6:17).

"And the nations are angered, and Thy indignation came, and the era for the dead to be judged, and to give their wages to Thy slaves, the prophets, and to the saints and to those fearing Thy name, the small and the great, and to blight those who are blighting the earth" (Rev. 11:18-19).

"If anyone is worshiping the wild beast and its image, and is getting an emblem on his forehead or on his hand, he, also, is drinking of the wine of the fury of God, blended undiluted in the cup of His indignation, and he shall be tormented in fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy messengers and in the sight of the Lambkin" (Rev. 14:9-10).

"And Babylon the great is brought to remembrance in the sight of God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fury of His indignation" (Rev. 16:19).

"And He is treading the wine trough of the fury of the indignation of God, the Almighty" (Rev. 19:15).

There are the Greek Scriptures on indignation. Notice that it always comes from God. It is poured out in vengeance upon the unrepentant, the stubborn, the unjust and irreverent, those who worship the beast, etc. Never is God’s indignation poured out on His SAINTS! Not the Gentile saints and not the Jewish saints. The saints of Israel have not "been appointed to indignation", they are not "of the night," they will not "be overtaken as a thief," they are a part of "all the saints," I Thes. 2:14 and 3:13.

It is stated that those called in Paul’s message of grace will not go through the Great Tribulation period, because:

"Jesus, our Rescuer out of the coming indignation" (I Thes. 1:10),

and

"God did not appoint us to indignation ..." (I Thes. 5:9).

But look at our definitions of words again. God is promising to rescue us out of coming "indignation," not "tribulation." God did not appoint us to "indignation," but He did appoint us to "tribulation." These terms are not synonymous.




« Last Edit: May 03, 2007, 11:32:48 PM by hillsbororiver »
Logged

hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Indignation & Wrath vs. Affliction & Tribulation
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2007, 11:49:26 PM »

The following is from an unpublished e-mail sent from Ray  


"Lord, REBUKE me not in Thy WRATH: neither CHASTEN me in Thy HOT DISPLEASURE" (Psalm 38:1).

The Hebrew words translated "rebuke & chasten" are virtually identical in this verse, and the Hebrew words translated "wrath & hot displeasure" are virtually identical. Rotherham even translates "hot displeasure" as "wrath"—"Nor in thy wrath [hot displeasure] chastise me."

From Strong’s we find the following:

"Rebuke" is from jakach and means: "to correct, reprove, chasten."

"Chasten" is from yasar and means: "to correct, reprove, chasten."

But"

"Wrath" is from kehtzeph and it means: "rage, indignation, wrath"

"Hot displeasure" is chemah and means: "rage indignation, wrath"

Now then, "rebuke & chasten" are in the "same family" and "wrath & hot displeasure" are in the "same family," but "wrath" and "chasten" are decidedly NOT in the same family.

Maybe this analogy will help a few of you to understand: When a teacher "corrects, reproves, and chastens" our children, we pay him a nice salary. But when a teacher displays "rage, indignation, and WRATH" toward our children; we FIRE HIM. Am I going too fast for anyone?

Psalm 38 undeniably shows that God was going to rebuke and/or chasten King David, and for this David was okay. What David did not desire, however, is for God to rebuke and chasten him IN HIS HOT DISPLEASURE AND WRATH. If anyone still doesn’t see the simple truth of these words, then maybe check it out with a 5th grade grammar teacher. Wrath means "ANGER." In Rev. 6:16 "…the wrath [Gk: orge] of the Lamb" mean "ANGER, indignation, vengeance, wrath" (Strong’s Greek Dictionary). But not just the "Now don’t be angry with me, sweetheart" variety of anger but, "violent passion or abhorrence" (again from Strong’s Dictionary).

There is a giant difference between affliction and tribulation which we "ARE appointed thereunto" (I Thes. 3:2-3, and wrath which we are "delivered from" (I Thes. 1:10) and "are NOT appointed unto" (I Thes. 5:9).
« Last Edit: May 04, 2007, 12:03:17 AM by hillsbororiver »
Logged

rocky

  • Guest
Re: Indignation & Wrath vs. Affliction & Tribulation
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2007, 12:17:11 AM »

So the wrath/indignation of God is for those destined for the second resurrection and LOF, non elect.  The wrath of God is the seals that are opened in Revelation.

Yet some will say that because Christ is, was and will be; that all are destined for his wrath, just occuring at different times; now for his elect, later for those in LOF, and through this wrath, death of death occurs. 

I've even seen some on other boards praying for God's wrath upon them. 

Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Personally, I hope and pray for God's chastisement, but don't want to go through the seals and indignation. 




Logged

rocky

  • Guest
Re: Indignation & Wrath vs. Affliction & Tribulation
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2007, 12:44:23 AM »

Here's something i've been thinking about.  See if you all agree or not.

Wrath/indignation=hardening; those destined for LOF, vessel of wrath

Chastisement/tribulation=mercy; those destined for 1st resurrection


Result of Wrath (vessels fitted for destruction), is mercy to some (the elect going through trial and chastisement).  The result of mercy to some (the elect) is eventually mercy on all.

Rom 9:18  Therefore hath he mercy (tribulation/chastiesement) on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth (wrath of God).
 
Rom 9:23  And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy (those going through tribulation), which he had afore prepared unto glory, (those in 1st resurrection, going through fire of mercy)

Rom 11:12  Now if the fall (wrath of God) of them be the riches of the world (vessels of mercy), and the diminishing of them (wrath of God) the riches of the Gentiles (mercy); how much more their fullness (those going through wrath, eventually a "much more")?

Rom 11:15  For if the casting away (wrath of God) of them be the reconciling of the world (those receiving mercy), what shall the receiving of them (those going through wrath) be, but life from the dead? (praise God, life for all)
 
Rom 11:22  Behold therefore the goodness (tribulation/chastisemnent) and severity (wrath of God) of God: on them which fell, severity (wrath of God); but toward thee, goodness (chastisement/tribulation), if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
 
Rom 11:30  For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy (chastisement/tribulation) through their unbelief (vessels fitted for wrath):

Rom 11:31  Even so have these also now not believed (vessels of wrath), that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. (praise God again, through our baptism into death to life, they too will obtain life)

Rom 11:32  For God hath concluded them all (vessels fitted for wrath) in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Rom 11:33  O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!


Sorry if this doesn't make sense, just trying to put thots on paper. 


Logged

hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Indignation & Wrath vs. Affliction & Tribulation
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2007, 08:54:07 AM »

Hi Rocky,

What you wrote makes perfect sense. You have discerned the difference between His elect and those who are destined for the White Throne Judgment and the LOF. Here is more from that same e-mail;


"Behold, I will cast her [followers of Jezebel—Babylon] into bed and them that commit adultery with her into GREAT TRIBULATION."

Our tribulation comes from a "Loving Father" out of LOVE to correct and perfect us for salvation.
 
Babylon’s tribulation comes from an "ANGRY God of wrath" to punish and harden for destruction.
 
"Let NO MAN DECEIVE YOU with vain words: for because of these things [vain words of deceiving men upon the called children] comes THE WRATH of God upon the children of disobedience" (Eph. 5:6).

If you believe that YOU as one of God’s Elect will receive this wrath in Eph. 5:6, then that is proof positive that YOU ARE INDEED DECEIVED BY A MAN. There is no debating it. If you agree that you are one of the "children of disobedience" upon which the "wrath of God" will come, then you truly ARE DECEIVED.

But how can I say that? Because verse 7 says:

"BE NOT YE [God’s Elect] therefore PARTAKERS WITH THEM" ! ! !
The "them" being the "children of disobedience" upon whom "the WRATH of God" comes in verse 7.

His Peace to you,

Joe

Logged

hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Indignation & Wrath vs. Affliction & Tribulation
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2007, 09:24:23 AM »

Hello again Rocky,

What could Peter mean in the following scripture if not that there are two experiences, one for the elect and another for everyone else?


1Pe 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
 
1Pe 4:18  And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

His Peace to you,

Joe

Logged

rocky

  • Guest
Re: Indignation & Wrath vs. Affliction & Tribulation
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2007, 10:42:55 AM »

I think these apply too,

The empty house, not what I want.

Mat 12:44  Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.

Mat 12:45  Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

Logged

DWIGHT

  • Guest
Re: Indignation & Wrath vs. Affliction & Tribulation
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2007, 06:19:09 PM »

Hi Joe,

The way I see it, wrath and tribulation are like the called and the elect.  Which would make sense since the whole of scripture is one or the other.  Spiritually, I see that it can be both in us.  Our natural man, or the marred vessel the flesh, is under the wrath of God.  But our inner man, the new man, is fitted for honor and glory.

The called.....

Ephesians 2:3
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.


Jeremiah 18:4
And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Romans 9:26
And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Romans 9:22
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:


The elect.....

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.


Romans 9:23
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


We were by nature the children of wrath even as others.  This is the beast in all of us.  This beast is destined for wrath, but God will show mercy on the new man that He created in us through Christ.

In Him,

Dwight

Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: Indignation & Wrath vs. Affliction & Tribulation
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2007, 11:08:39 PM »


Hi Dwight,

Eph 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
v. 4  just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
v. 5  having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
v. 6  to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

Since the elect have always been the chosen from the foundation of the world, they could never have been under God's wrath.  Because the elect have always been the elect.
The scripture you provided shows that God did not appoint the elect to wrath, I believe that means never.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Now before we were given the Holy Spirit that Christ might live in us, we did live according to the flesh, and we were children of wrath. 

Eph 2:3  among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

But God never has poured out His wrath on us and no scripture says that.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

Logged

Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Indignation & Wrath vs. Affliction & Tribulation
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2007, 11:22:40 AM »

I think this confirms HOW Judas was appointed to "wrath". God is the potter ;D
Logged

hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Indignation & Wrath vs. Affliction & Tribulation
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2007, 12:09:30 PM »

Hi Dwight,

Please reread my original post from the "Rapture" paper, as Kat reiterated in her post 1Thes 5:9 pretty much encapsulates the message in that paper.

His Peace to you,

Joe

Logged

skydreamers

  • Guest
Re: Indignation & Wrath vs. Affliction & Tribulation
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2007, 09:35:10 PM »

Hi Guys,

Here's my understanding of the topic of this thread (and I could be way off! ;)):

The way I have tried to think through this is as follows:

A very young child who has no understanding, or at a least a limited understanding, of the consequences of their actions cannot understand the reasons why, for example, parents insist that he cannot go running out into the middle of the street.  They may explain it to him several times, but if he is a particularly rebellious stubborn child, he may continue to do it upteen times.  Mom than displays her "hot displeasure" at this disobedience because it is the only thing that will get his attention, and so the child then obeys to avoid mom's anger/wrath though he still doesn't understand the reasons.  (At the very least, he now knows mom does not want him to do it, period).

As a child gets older and gains more experience, he begins to understand the results of some of his actions...he begins to understand what pain is, broken bones, and even death.  He now embraces mom's "discipline" and rules with an understanding he didn't have before.  Mom's discipline and boundaries remain, but they take on a different light in the eyes of the child.

In my understanding, the Elect have once been like this young child....as all of humanity starts off spiritually immature.  When you are blind and your heart is hardened you have no deep understanding of God's purposes, and with a limited view of the great and grand result God has in mind for you, you may view God's dealing with you in your life as His anger.

The carnal man, who is stubborn may, for example, think he is being punished by an angry God as an explanation for all the troubles in his life.  The spiritual mind, however, understands the benefits of tribulation, and embraces the discipline knowing it is coming from the hand of a loving father.  The spiritual mind is growing and maturing in his understanding of the consequences of his behavior, and in the understanding of God's ways....which are always for the benefit of man. 

So while God may be "angry" at the carnal man, displaying his "hot displeasure" at man keeps the carnal man informed of God's position regarding sin.  Eventually, when God so decides, he may open the eyes of the carnal man and shed new light and understanding into things he never understood before.  As understanding and spiritual maturity increases, God's wrath decreases proportionately.  The discipling and purging of carnal man continues, but God no longer needs to display his anger to get this new spiritual man's attention.  God is developing spiritual reasoning powers in the man, so he thus no longer needs to use carnal reasoning to get his point across.

What I am trying to convey with this, is that I think that the Elect have had to come through this process just like every child of God will need to.  I don't quite see how it could be said that the Elect have never experienced the wrath of God in their lives, since at some point they would have been part of Babylon, been blind and lacking understanding of God's great plan.  Not to mention, that many have spent time wandering after the ways of the world...before, during, and even after Babylon....so until God has called the Elect out of the world, and then out of Babylon, they are as carnal as any other human being has been in their lives.

Jeremiah 10:10
But Jehovah is the true God, He is the living God, and the everlasting King. At His wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to stand His fury.

Psalms 59:13
Destroy them in wrath, destroy them, that they may be no more; That men may know that God rules in Jacob, To the ends of the earth.


What I've learned is that the earth may be a spiritual symbol for God's called (not the Elect) who at least have some spiritual understanding.  And here the earth is experiencing God's wrath.

From Ray's writing:

There are three realms of humanity and three realms of spiritual understanding. The lowest of all is the sea. Those with at least some spiritual understanding are those who dwell in the earth. And those who have the very mind of Christ are those who dwell in heaven.
.............
Where is the Church? Does she dwell in the spiritual realms of heaven? No. Is she located in the sea? No. She dwells in the earth. She is higher than the sea, but lower than heaven; she dwells in the earth. These are the three realms spoken of in Revelation. If we can’t get our thinking above the symbols themselves, we will never ever understand the book of Revelation.

The saints have left the earth in their spiritual walk with God. Those who are now ‘spiritually-minded;’ dwell in heaven—a much much higher realm than that of the earth.


http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html

So the elect have been a part of the earth/church at some point, so while in that state, or in that realm of spiritual understanding, would they not have experienced God's wrath??

I can see that once they become "spiritually minded" and are in the heaven realm (in their minds) they would no longer experience or be appointed to wrath. 

Though none of us knows who the elect are, perhaps we can say we have clues, and as our understanding grows, certainly we begin to perceive God's workings with less severity (though the trials themselves may continue to be severe), and we see God's true mercy and love in His necessary dealings with us. 

Therefore, I agree that God's elect are not appointed to wrath in their life , because they come out of that phase while in the flesh in this age, as God prepares them for their high calling for the next age.

So:

1 Thessalonians 5:9
God has not appointed us to wrath...

because the elect are being saved (process) now in this age (in their flesh)

...but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

But does not this process towards salvation include the elect having once been disobedient, children of wrath, who were blind and spiritually immature???  Yet God takes them out of the world and the church (who will continue to experience God's wrath in this age and in the age to come...until he brings them out of that phase too).  The elect are appointed to experiencing salvation before everyone else which makes them special/peculiar....but does this mean they would experience anything less than the rest of humanity would have experienced???

Ray says:

All these things take a lifetime. We’re going to live “the seals”. A third part of the men died: that’s a third part of the man in us that is going to die. A third part of the carnality. God works in increments, you see.
.....
All of those seven seals, seven trumpets, seven plagues: they are all things that must happen in our lives.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3849.0.html

So if all the things in Revelation must happen in our lives, as we are to "keep the sayings of this book", does this exclude God's wrath in the entire experience of the elect?

Psalms 102:9-13
9  For I have eaten ashes like bread, and mingled my drink with weeping,
10  Because of thine indignation and thy wrath: for thou hast lifted me up, and cast me down.
11  My days are like a shadow that declineth; and I am withered like grass.
12  But thou, O LORD, shalt endure for ever; and thy remembrance unto all generations.
13  Thou shalt arise, and have mercy upon Zion: for the time to favour her, yea, the set time, is come.



Ray says:

He wipes out some of the trees, and then He burns the grass…what is the trees and the grass? These are all things in us. We have islands, and mountains, and trees, and grass. All of these are belief systems and ideas and doctrines and philosophies of life and all these things. And they are all going to be burned out and broken down and destroyed.

Isaiah 13:5-7
5  They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land. (trees, mountains,grass....etc??)
6  Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
7  Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt


Will this not be the experience of the elect?  Aren't all these things for our admonition?

Revelation 14:9-10
9  And a third angel followed them, saying with a great voice, If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark in his forehead or in his hand,
10  he also will drink of the wine of the anger of God, having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.


Didn't even the elect also once upon the time "worship the beast".....don't we all have the mark of the beast?  Isn't the Lake of Fire experienced in the elect right now, in their flesh??

I thought that the actual difference between the elect and the rest of humanity is that they experience all these things in their lives now, before everyone else...God's anger turns to mercy for the elect in this age, and for everyone else in the next age.  I see His necessary wrath as being poured out onto the carnality within us, so as to destroy it....a fiery wrath against the old man of sin... 

Psalms 21:9
Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.


So I don't think I'm in disagreement with what Ray is saying....but I'm thinking that God's wrath diminishes in the lives of the elect as their eyes are opened and they respond to the truth accordingly.  They are chosen to experience the whole of Revelation and the bible in this age, while the rest will experience it in the next age. 

At least, that's how I'm understanding it thus far.  As always I am open to correction and further enlightenment on this topic!

Peace,
Diana
Logged

rocky

  • Guest
Re: Indignation & Wrath vs. Affliction & Tribulation
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2007, 12:23:02 AM »

I think there is a difference between the day of wrath to come, which the elect will not be hurt by, versus being a child of wrath by nature.   

Rom 2:5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Mat 3:7  But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Rev 2:11  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Joh 3:36  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

1Th 1:10  And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Rom 5:9  Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Col 3:6  For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Rev 11:18  And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 14:10  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Rev 2:11  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Psa 7:11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry [with the wicked] every day. 

 Psa 7:12 If he turn not, he will whet his sword; he hath bent his bow, and made it ready. 

 Psa 7:13 He hath also prepared for him the instruments of death; he ordaineth his arrows against the persecutors. 

 Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 

 Psa 7:15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch [which] he made. 

 Psa 7:16 His mischief shall return upon his own head, and his violent dealing shall come down upon his own pate

 Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high. 

Psa 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. 

 Psa 11:6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: [this shall be] the portion of their cup. 

 Psa 11:7 For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright. 



I think there is a great example in Leviticus of this, dealing with leprosy, and declaring a person clean or unclean.

Notice that a cloth can be saved from the fire, if it is cleansed by the water.

If it is not cleansed by water the first time, it is purified by fire and hopefully saved.

If the infection still continues after the washing and the fire, the entire garment is destroyed.

Leviticus 13:40-59

Then the priest shall examine him, and if the diseased swelling is reddish white on his bald head or forehead like the appearance of leprosy in the skin of the body, he is a leprous man; he is unclean; the priest shall surely pronounce him unclean; his disease is on his head.

And the leper's clothes shall be rent, and the hair of his head shall hang loose, and he shall cover his upper lip and cry, Unclean, unclean! He shall remain unclean as long as the disease is in him; he is unclean; he shall live alone [and] his dwelling shall be outside the camp.

The garment also that the disease of leprosy is in, whether a wool or a linen garment, qther it be in woven or knitted stuff or in the warp or woof of linen or of wool, or in a skin or anything made of skin, if the disease is greenish or reddish in the garment, or in a skin or in the warp or woof or in anything made of skin, it is the plague of leprosy; show it to the priest. The priest shall examine the diseased article and shut it up for seven days.

He shall examine the disease on the seventh day; if is spread in the garment, or in the article, whatever service it may be used for, the disease is a rotting or corroding leprosy; it is unclean. He shall burn the garment, whether diseased in warp or woof, in wool or linen, or anything made of skin; for it is a rotting or corroding leprosy, to be burned in the fire.

But if the priest finds the disease has not spread in the garment, in the warp or the woof, or in anything made of skin, then the priest shall command that they wash the thing in which the plague is, and he shall shut it up seven days more.

And the priest shall examine the diseased article after it has been washed, and if the diseased portion has not changed color, though the disease has not spread, it is unclean; you shall burn it in the fire; it is a rotting or corroding [disease], whether the leprous spot be inside or outside. If the priest looks and the diseased portion is less noticeable after it is washed, he shall tear it out of the garment, or the skin (leather), or out of the warp or woof. If it appears still in the garment, either in the warp or in the woof, or in anything made of skin, it is spreading; you shall burn the diseased part with fire.

But the garment, or the woven or knitted stuff or warp or woof, or anything made of skin from which the disease departs when you have washed it, shall then be washed a second time, and be clean.

This is the law for a leprous disease in a garment of wool or linen, either in the warp or woof, or in anything made of skin, to pronounce it clean or unclean.

1Co 6:11  And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Joh 9:11  He answered and said, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed mine eyes, and said unto me, Go to the pool of Siloam, and wash: and I went and washed, and I received sight.

Heb 10:22  Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Rev 1:5  And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


However, the baptism into Christ's death is not an easy ride, I just personally don't think it is the same as the wrath to come.  One is mercy through the washing of his blood upon us, and one is the destruction. 

But thankfully both end in mercy for all. 


Logged

skydreamers

  • Guest
Re: Indignation & Wrath vs. Affliction & Tribulation
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2007, 04:14:42 AM »

Hi Rocky,

Thank you for pointing out those scriptures....so much to study, so little time!!  That's why it's so great to have each other, and put all our efforts together... ;) :)

Peace brother,
Diana
Logged

hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Indignation & Wrath vs. Affliction & Tribulation
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2007, 09:59:30 AM »

Hi Rocky,

I want to thank you for your exceptionally good post, very well put together Brother.

His Peace to you,

Joe
Logged

Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Indignation & Wrath vs. Affliction & Tribulation
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2007, 02:50:29 PM »

Rocky

Your study shows good understanding. Well done!

 Rev 5 : 10 And You have made them ( the Elect) a kingdom, royal race and priests to our God and they shall reign as kings over the earth! :)

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
« Last Edit: May 06, 2007, 02:51:36 PM by Arcturus »
Logged

Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Indignation & Wrath vs. Affliction & Tribulation
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2007, 03:35:21 PM »

If we take this excerpt from Joe's post : From Strong’s we find the following:

"Rebuke" is from jakach and means: "to correct, reprove, chasten."

"Chasten" is from yasar and means: "to correct, reprove, chasten."

But"

"Wrath" is from kehtzeph and it means: "rage, indignation, wrath"

"Hot displeasure" is chemah and means: "rage indignation, wrath"


...then we have to conclude that God does not exercise WRATH one moment and then less WRATH the next. Wrath is for the children of disobedience and Wrath is to COME. For now we are appointed to trials and tribulations and the wrath that is to come is surely the second death. From the wrath of God there is no escape for those who are not living according to His judgements now.

For me the vessel of dishonour does not become the vessel of honour. God is Sovereign and does not change His mind. To think that He can or does is to assume that Judas Iscariot could impress God and change his destiny or that Pharaoh could understand and out think God. Neither is possible for man but for God and to who He chooses He makes His mysteries known and knowable. Understanding comes only from His Spirit.

The vessel of honour is made by the author and finisher of our faith. The vessel of dishonour is the vessel  appointed to the wrath of God to come. Yes, humanity begins in spiritual weakness. God knows the beginning from the end. Not all who say Lord Lord will be saved and while many are called, we all know that few are chosen. God alone is Sovereign all mighty and all powerful and to be revered with all humility and submission. HE is after all, LOVE.

Peace be to you

Arcturus :)



Logged

hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Indignation & Wrath vs. Affliction & Tribulation
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2007, 06:37:09 PM »

Thank you for the great post Arcturus, here is more on the subject from http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html

                                                      The Beast Within





THE DAY OF THE LORD AND II THESSALONIANS II

Most of us not unlike the Thessalonians of Paul’s day are aware of a prophetic time spoken by the prophets known as "The Day of the Lord." The Thessalonians knew somewhat of this day and what it portended, as Paul spoke to them earlier about it. Now he has to tell them in this second epistle,

"That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that THE DAY OF CHRIST is at hand" (II Thes. 2:2).

Never forget that Jesus Christ IS ‘The LORD,’ and so the Day of Christ and the Day of the Lord both represent the Son of God.

Notice what Paul had instructed them in his first epistle concerning the coming of the Lord:

"…and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the Living and True God; And to wait for His Son from heaven, Whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come" (I Thes. 1:9b-10).

Paul tells them of his suffering:

"For yourselves, brethren, know our entrance in unto you, that it was not in vain: But even after that we had SUFFERED before, and were SHAMEFULLY ENTREATED, as ye know… with MUCH CONTENTION

(I Thes. 2:1-2). Then Paul speaks of their suffering and the reason for sending Timothy to them:

"That no man should be moved by THESE AFFLICTIONS: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto" (I Thes. 3:3).

Paul states that:

"Therefore, brethren, we were comforted over you in all our AFFLICTION and DISTRESS by your faith" (I Thes. 3:7).

And so Paul tells them of his afflictions, and also acknowledges their afflictions. Again Paul assures these Thessalonians that:

"For yourselves know perfectly that THE DAY OF THE LORD so comes as a thief in the night… For God has NOT appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (I Thes. 5:2 & 9).

Well Timothy reported back to Paul that they were having even more tribulations and persecutions to the point that they were thinking that they must be in that period of time of "The Day of the Lord," and that they themselves were suffering wrath from God.

Once more Paul acknowledges these tribulations and suffering:

"So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in ALL YOUR PERSECUTIONS AND TRIBULATIONS THAT YE ENDURE" (II Thes. 1:4).

But rather than wrath from God, Paul assures them that this suffering is really a token of God’s righteous judgment and that God will be punishing those who are persecuting them:

"Which [suffering] is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be COUNTED WORTHY of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God recompense tribulation to them that TROUBLE YOU" (II Thes. 1:5-6).

Then Paul gives them one more giant promise of rest from all of these sufferings:

"And to you [and to US as well] who are troubled REST with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction [eonian extermination] from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power; When He shall come to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) IN THAT DAY" (II Thes. 1:7-10).

And next we come to the Scriptures of our present study. Paul comforts them in their persecutions and tribulations. He assures them that endurance in faith will account the worthy to be in the Kingdom of God, and that they will have rest at the coming of our Lord to be glorified in His saints and admired in ALL THAT BELIEVE. This is the way of the believer leading up to the coming of the Lord and the "Day of the Lord," when all will be changed and glorified. But Paul tells them that that day is not here yet.

Listen carefully: Generation after generation after generation of believers and saints of God have lived, suffered and been persecuted, and then DIED. This "Day of Christ" or "Day of the Lord" not only did not come in their lifetime, but it will not be a reality to any of them WHEN IT DOES COME, unless something else happens in their lives FIRST!

Unless this experience happened to them in their lifetime, whenever they lived, they will not be in the First Resurrection and see the Coming of the Lord in the Day of the Lord. Something had to have happened to them—all of them. Something HAS to happen to YOU—ALL OF YOU who expect to see the Coming of the Lord and the Day of the Lord and be accounted worthy to be in The Kingdom of God. Yes, we already read in II Thes. 1:10, "When He shall come to be glorified in His saints…" And He will be glorified in all His saints at that time, but not unless something has happened in all of His saints FIRST!

Until and unless the thing that I am going to mention next is an accomplished FACT in your PRESENT life, you will not see The Coming of the Lord, neither will you be in the First Resurrection of spiritual rest and glorification. I kid you not, this is deep and heavy stuff!

Logged

hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Indignation & Wrath vs. Affliction & Tribulation
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2007, 07:41:12 PM »

In this portion of Lake of Fire Part 13 Ray writes about the Saints "warring" with the beast rather than experiencing the "wrath of God poured without mixture."

ANOTHER WILD BEAST

There’s more:

"And I beheld ANOTHER wild beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon.

And he exercises all the power [authority] of the first wild beast before him, and causes the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the FIRST wild beast [the one from the sea] before him [in his presence], and causes the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first wild beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

And he does great wonders, so that he makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.

And deceives them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the wild beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an IMAGE to the wild beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

And he had power to give life unto the image of the wild beast, that the image of the wild beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the IMAGE OF THE WILD BEAST should be killed.

And he causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a MARK in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the MARK, or the NAME of the wild beast, or the NUMBER OF HIS NAME.

Here is wisdom. Let him that has understanding count the number of the wild beast: for it is THE NUMBER OF A MAN; and his number is SIX HUNDRED THREESCORE AND SIX [666]" (Rev. 13:11-18).

Let me recap this just a little for you. First comes a wild beast out of the sea with seven heads and ten horns. A second wild beast comes out of the earth like a lamb with two horns speaking like a dragon and he calls down fire from heaven and deceives the whole world by miracles. This second wild beasts makes everyone worship the first wild beast. This wild beast from the earth then causes everyone on earth to make an image of the first wild beast from the sea and makes everyone worship this image of the wild beast from the sea or be killed.

This image of the wild beast from the sea then causes everyone to worship this image, and causes all to receive a MARK of the first wild beast from the sea in their right hand, or in their foreheads. They can have either a mark or the name or the number of his name, and that number is said (albeit not correctly said) to be the number of a man, and it is the number 666.

Now repeat all that back to me in your own words! Okay, let’s try this shortened version: a beast from the earth causes all to worship a beast from the sea and to also make an image of this beast from the sea, who then causes all to receive either a mark, name, or number. Got it?

*the image, name, and number of the wild beast" all have reference to the one beast that comes up out of the sea and is the wild beast made reference to for the remainder of the book of Revelation. It is this very "wild beast" along with the "false prophet" which is ultimately "…cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone" (Rev. 19:21).

Who is this WILD BEAST?

It behooves us to know just who or what this wild beast is, and especially his image. It is a force and a power to be reckoned with by every human that has ever lived or ever will live.

On the one hand we have this:

"Who is like the unto the wild beast? Who is able to make war with him?… And it was given unto him to MAKE WAR WITH THE SAINTS… And all that dwell upon the earth SHALL WORSHIP HIM, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb…" (Rev. 13:4, 7, & 8).

On the other hand we have this:

"And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, if any man worship the wild beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the WRATH OF GOD, WHICH IS POURED OUT WITHOUT MIXTURE…" (Rev. 14:9-10).

Talk about finding oneself between a rock and hard place!

Apparently we can either be AT WAR with this wild beast, though we were just warned: "…who is ABLE to make war with him"? Or, we can partake of "THE WRATH OF GOD poured out without mixture…" Either prospect is extremely frightening. But I would rather be on God’s side than on the side of the wild beast. However, how well will we fare in war against this wild beast, seeing that God warns us, "Who is ABLE TO MAKE WAR WITH HIM?"


Before I was yet a teenager, my older brother read to us one time from this section of Revelation. Even at that early age, I quickly realized that this book of Revelation was an hard book. For I immediately saw that if we didn’t follow the beast it would kills us and if we did follow the beast, God would kill us. My brother did not have an explanation for this, and it bothered me somewhat for many years to come. It was, in fact, the only thing that I never forgot in this mysterious book of Revelation. I wondered just how fair can God be if we are left with two fatal choices such as that. Maybe I’ve even frightened you by now. That is not my objective. "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you FREE."

Like everything in Revelation leading up to the consummation of all things, this wild beast is the wild beast that "is, was, and will be." This wild beast has been around from before John received his revelation, and will be around until the consummation. However, that is not to say that these things that "are, were, and will be" do not build into a giant and violent CRESCENDO in these end times:

Evil men have always been with us. And so "evil men are, were, and will be." But notice what Paul tells us will happen as the consummation of the age is upon us:

"But evil men and seducers [imposters] shall wax [grow] worse and WORSE, deceiving and being deceived" (II Tim. 3:13).

And so too, this wild beast that comes up out of the sea is the beast IS (at the time John wrote of it), WAS (before it was introduced to John), AND WILL BE (down through the centuries until our time and beyond until the consummation of this age).

You will never understand the book of Revelation as long as you try to make it either "Preterism"of the past or "Futurism" of still-to-be-fulfilled events for the first time. The events of Revelation are neither, Preterism or Futurism, but rather things that "are, were, and will be."
Logged

skydreamers

  • Guest
Re: Indignation & Wrath vs. Affliction & Tribulation
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2007, 09:48:22 PM »

Hi Arcturus,

I loved what you said here...this really makes sense to me:

Quote
For me the vessel of dishonour does not become the vessel of honour. God is Sovereign and does not change His mind. To think that He can or does is to assume that Judas Iscariot could impress God and change his destiny or that Pharaoh could understand and out think God. Neither is possible for man but for God and to who He chooses He makes His mysteries known and knowable. Understanding comes only from His Spirit.

The vessel of honour is made by the author and finisher of our faith. The vessel of dishonour is the vessel  appointed to the wrath of God to come. Yes, humanity begins in spiritual weakness.

That really clicked for me, because you're right...there are the two types of vessels...and the dishonorable ones would be the ones appointed to wrath.

Joe,

Thanks for pointing us to further information in Ray's writings...that always helps a lot!  I think this subject is beginning to become clearer for me, though I know I still have a ways to go to really "get it"...all in God's time.

Peace to you brothers and sisters, and thanks as always for you generous and kind spirits!
 
Diana
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.127 seconds with 24 queries.