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End time prophecy not related to hell
hillsbororiver:
Hi Laren,
The statement you made in regard to this doctrine is that God is all in all now?
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
No more death, no more sorrow? Like I stated earlier, I don't see this at all. Is this true in your own life? Am I missing out on something or is this a fanciful theory requiring scriptural somersaults that makes for an interesting debate?
His Peace to you,
Joe
YellowStone:
Hi Laren,
This thread seemed to have enough support without me weighing in. :)
However, I think a small point may provide a great deal of understanding in regard to the many Scriptures you quoted.
You correctly stated that 'a' gospel of Christ has been preached to the ends of the Earth, yet there is an insurmountable difference between hearing the words and understanding the truth or the TRUE Gospel. Paul even knew of this, which no doubt prompted his following words.
1Cr 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Believe what? The words of man; the promise of instant perfect life in Heaven or an eternal unceasing torture in a firey hell hole?
Really? Is this what was meant when Christ said the folowing: :)
Mark 16:15 And He said to them, ‘Go into all the world (Greek kosmos) and preach the gospel to every creature.
I think not. For the gospel I was taught as a child, is very different than the truth that God's Spirit has now allowed me to see. It is not the same, and the truth as I know it now surely has never been preached to the ends of the Earth. Ask any so called Christian on the street about what happens when they die and see what answers you get. I believe you would get more truthful answers from atheists, who say there is nothing, simply death. Well at least they got that part right! :)
Yet it not up to man to find his own salvation, hearing it is simply not enough.
Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
And yet, there are still those who will never come to Christ, because it is not God's plan.
Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
For not all will recieve the Spirit of Truth.
Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
I think it is somewhat presumptuous to suggest that God's spirit, the Spirit of Truth is in everyone this present day. The Spirit of Truth is a gift from God and is life changing. No man can read the heart or the motive of another man, yet their actions speak volumes.
Mankind as a whole has simply neither seen nor heard the truth and will not until the Spirit of Truth opens the eyes, ears and heart to the truth.
Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again (spiritually), he cannot see the kingdom of God.
I hope this helps a little :)
Love to you,
Darren
Laren:
Hi all, I didn't mean to turn this thread into a preterism thread. I am not necessarily convinced of it either, but i have learned a lot from reading and studying about it. All your questions and observations I have had too, and each one can be answered, if you want to read and study the idea of it. If it is something that doesn't interest you, or you fear will led you away from staying faithful to the end, then by all means don't.
I have some interesting website links and like i said a great book that really goes into detail re: the idea if anyone is interested. For the best interest of this forum and respecting Ray's teaching's, I haven't listed them, and PM me if you want to be referred to some of these sites.
thanks all for your replies, and i appreciate your sincereness (is that a word? :))
Laren
Kat:
Hi Darren,
That was really well put :)
The gospel has been preached to the whole world, and that does explain all the scripture that Laren provided concerning this.
In Matt 24:14 it does say 'this' gospel, and I was wondering about Christ saying specifically 'this' gospel. But I did notice the rest of the verse, and that needs to be considered. So I have looked up some scripture, that I think relate to this verse.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
In 1Cor. we have the order of things that lead up to "then comes the end."
1Co 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
v. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
v. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
v. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
v. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
v. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
v. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
v. 27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.
v. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
It looks like in Matt. 24:14 "this gospel of the kingdom will be preached ... then the end will come." maybe this is the same 'end' as "Then comes the end," in 1Cor 15:24. And it shows in 1Cor.15 that this is talking about after Christ has put all things under His feet in the kingdom, and "then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all."
We do know that 'this' gospel will be preached in the kingdom when Christ reigns on earth.
Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having the everlasting(agelong) gospel to preach to those dwelling on the earth, even to every nation and kindred and tongue and people,
I just found this to be very interesting, and thought I would bring these scripture out in considering Matt 24:14.
Now I think to understand the is, was, and will be of Christ, you have to consider where God's plan is at any given moment in time. The 'is' for anyone, is what is happening at any particular point in God's plan. The 'was' are the things that have been fulfilled, before any certain point in God's plan. And the 'will be' are those things yet to be complete, from any point in God's plan, until "God may be all in all."
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
Laren:
--- Quote from: Kat on May 08, 2007, 01:53:09 AM ---Hi Darren,
That was really well put :)
The gospel has been preached to the whole world, and that does explain all the scripture that Laren provided concerning this.
In Matt 24:14 it does say 'this' gospel, and I was wondering about Christ saying specifically 'this' gospel. But I did notice the rest of the verse, and that needs to be considered. So I have looked up some scripture, that I think relate to this verse.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
In 1Cor. we have the order of things that lead up to "then comes the end."
1Co 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
v. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
v. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
v. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
v. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
v. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
v. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
v. 27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.
v. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
It looks like in Matt. 24:14 "this gospel of the kingdom will be preached ... then the end will come." maybe this is the same 'end' as "Then comes the end," in 1Cor 15:24. And it shows in 1Cor.15 that this is talking about after Christ has put all things under His feet in the kingdom, and "then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all."
We do know that 'this' gospel will be preached in the kingdom when Christ reigns on earth.
Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having the everlasting(agelong) gospel to preach to those dwelling on the earth, even to every nation and kindred and tongue and people,
I just found this to be very interesting, and thought I would bring these scripture out in considering Matt 24:14.
Now I think to understand the is, was, and will be of Christ, you have to consider where God's plan is at any given moment in time. The 'is' for anyone, is what is happening at any particular point in God's plan. The 'was' are the things that have been fulfilled, before any certain point in God's plan. And the 'will be' are those things yet to be complete, from any point in God's plan, until "God may be all in all."
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
excellent post Kat, and I agree with you. The thing is preterists would agree with your post too. It's just that they see the end has come, and death (covenant between man and God through the law has died, the law=the administration of death). God is now in covenant based on the risen Christ and we are beneficiaries of that. In Christ (Christ and first fruit saints), Abrahams promise has been fufilled. And now through them, all families will be blessed. The will be blessed is you and me, according to them. We are not the elect according to preteristic thinking, not the first fruits. We are the "to be blessed", through grace, not through old covenant thinking. We are not under old covenant law, there is no covenant between God and us, which was the ministration of death, it is done. Grace reigns.
So from Joe's post, re: "do i still see death, still see tears", the answer is no, because that was the result of covenant between man and God. Old covenant is tears, death etc. New covenant is life.
Now that doesn't mean as humans we don't try to put ourselved under a covenant that doesn't exist anymore, but through grace and God's timing, we all "awaken" to the grace that is ours, our blessing is now and will continue.
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