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End time prophecy not related to hell
mrsnacks:
For me Matthew 24 I do take the preterism side after being a futurist for many years. I am not a full preterist. I would say an orthodox preterist understanding that the Great Trib happened in 70 A.D. when Titus came and desecrated and destroyed the temple. Read Josephus recording the events in 70 A.D.
Jesus told to the Disciples about things that were going to happen in that generation. And they did. But I haven't done an in depth study in prophecy even though I have studied under Hal Lindsey and Gary DeMar. But Lindsey has changed his tune so many times and his ways of interpreting scripture as many futurists today is a joke. I didn't see it then. Black helicopters are the locusts in Rev and the the moon turning red and not giving light is according to Lindsey cause by pollution or nuclear basts . This is clearly Apocalyptic language you can see it in the OT. This language is used ( stars falling from Heaven and etc ) is judgment from God.
I do have a question. Ray said that the churches in Rev were at that time being addressed. But he also said these same churches exists today and the scriptures are addressing those. My question is what makes him think so . Saying it doesn't make it so. I do believe scriptures can be applied to the world's condition today.
I am being honets here. I have following Ray's teaching for over 5 -6 months now. And I believe God has led me to this site. But I am very careful and skeptical because I have been in error thinking certain teachings were from God. So my life has been a journey of unlearning 99.99 % of what I have been taught.
When I first heard about UR I believed it . It made sense. I was convinced in my spirit. God is love. Love never fails. And God is the Savior of all mankind the church will say yet act like He isn't. And it makes sense to me if Jesus came to save all mankind and the majority of billions end up in this eternal hell then Jesus failed. Seems simple and plain to see. And Jesus isn't a failure. God is all powerful . How can God's mercy endure forever if there exist this eternal hell. Contradiction big time.
So back to my point. I was in a Bible study and the subject was the end times. And all were futurists in the class except my wife and I . And the crazy interpretations everyone comes up with is nuts. Speculations. They would say stars will be falling to the earth literal. I responded that if a star fell to the earth , the earth would end up being a vapor. Does anyone know how big a star is ? So then they say well maybe it isn't a star but a meteor or a flying saucer.
And Kat you said " Then the world will be ruled by Christ and the saints, with a rod of iron, that has not happened yet." So there is a time when Christ will rule over the earth with a rod of iron ? I thought that Christ's Kingdom is spiritual ? The Knigdom of God is within you .Now here you go to physical. So is it like a police state where He acts as dictator ? This part is confusing. Also the 1000 years part. What is the purpose ? IS it a literal 1000 years ? One theologian said when someone said in his class that God owns the cattle on a thousand hills , " who owns hill number 1001 ?
I have learned that there is so much to learn. Once you think you have sort of arrived at knowing something - God shows me that I have just barely scratched the surface.
Laren:
I've been struggling with the "is, was and will be" of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.
Similar to the thinking of the "churches" which Ray refers to as every church since that time,
the "is, was and will be" of Christ is in every age too, not just to a group of people at a certain time in the past. Well if this is true, how can there ever be an end to the Revelation of Jesus Christ? How will he finally defeat all his enemies, and turn the kingdom over to the father? As there can never be a consumation of the age of the Revelation of Christ, because there always will be another "will be".
The Revelation of Christ is the process of "death to life" through baptism into Christ, him revealing himself in us.
So if the revelation of Christ always "will be", there can never be an end to death to life, and death can never be conquered as a whole, but only on an individual basis.
Yet we all know there has to be a point in time when Jesus returns, and the first resurrection occurs. At this point, and from there on, there can not be any more first fruits/elect; as they will have been resurrected as we move into the next age.
But if we believe that the Revelation of Jesus Christ always "will be", then there can never be a consumation of this current age, because each individual can never be the last to make up the body of Christ/first fruits, because there will always be another "will be".
Does that make any sense? help would greatly be appreciated.
thanks.
hillsbororiver:
Hi mrsnacks,
The following is an e-mail response from Ray that touches on your question, LOF Part 10 goes much deeper into this;
http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html
Dear David:
Thank you for your email and comments about preterism.
I do comment from time to time on this theory, however, I have not ever handled it as a separate paper. I am at least a little familiar with the preterist and futurist approach to prophecy.
David, what if there is a third approach? The Scriptural approach? Would you be ready to consider that? I cover this principle in passing in Part X of my series on "The Lake of Fire."
Let me let the Scriptures shatter BOTH the preterist and futurist theory on prophecy fulfillment. I'll not attempt to harmonize all of the prophecies of Daniel, Joel, Zachariah, Matt. 24 and the the book of Revelation in one email. I have sixty more emails to answer. Hope you understand.
I think we can all agree that the Book of Revelation covers a larger assortment of prophetic world events than the rest of the prophets put together. The Book of Revelation is "the TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST." (It is decidedly NOT the revelation of St. John the Divine). And just what is "the testimony" of Jesus Christ?
"...for the testimony of Jesus is THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY" (Rev. 19:10).
Now then, is this prophecy of Revelation futurist or preterist? IT IS NEITHER! The answer is so simple, but who will believe it? I will give you the answer (not a full explanation, JUST THE ANSWER -- for now anyway):
"The Revelation OF JESUS CHRIST, which God gave unto Him, to show unto his servants things which must SHORTLY [or QUICKLY, is this 'preterist'? -- see my Series on the Lake of Fire for an explanation of this statement] come to pass; and He sent and SIGNIFIED [symbolized] it by His angel unto His servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Blessed is HE THAT READS ['futurist'?], and THEY THAT HEAR [those in John's day? Or those during the middle ages? Or those in these latter days?] the words of this prophecy ['futurist'?], and KEEP those things which are written therein; FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND ['preterist'? I cover this phrase in my Lake of Fire series]."
"John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto YOU [just the seven literal, physical, churches in Asia during the first century? Remember that this 'testimony' of Jesus is SPIRITUAL, Rev. 19:10. "Hear what the SPIRIT says unto the churches, 2:7, 11, 17, etc.], and peace, from Him WHICH IS, and WHICH WAS, and WHICH IS TO COME..."!!! (Rev. 1:1-4).
There is your SCRIPTURAL ANSWER, David. Everything in the Book of Revelation (which is the testimony--the prophecy of Jesus Christ), leading up to the consummation of all things, differs not from Jesus Christ Himself which, "IS, WAS, AND WILL BE." See, Rev. 1:4,8; 11:17; 16:5, etc. Preterists deny the FUTURE: Futurists deny the PAST: BOTH deny THE NOW -- what presently "IS"!
Hope this helps your understanding a little better.
God be with you,
Ray
hillsbororiver:
--- Quote from: Laren on May 07, 2007, 04:14:45 PM ---I've been struggling with the "is, was and will be" of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.
Similar to the thinking of the "churches" which Ray refers to as every church since that time,
the "is, was and will be" of Christ is in every age too, not just to a group of people at a certain time in the past. Well if this is true, how can there ever be an end to the Revelation of Jesus Christ? How will he finally defeat all his enemies, and turn the kingdom over to the father? As there can never be a consumation of the age of the Revelation of Christ, because there always will be another "will be".
The Revelation of Christ is the process of "death to life" through baptism into Christ, him revealing himself in us.
So if the revelation of Christ always "will be", there can never be an end to death to life, and death can never be conquered as a whole, but only on an individual basis.
Yet we all know there has to be a point in time when Jesus returns, and the first resurrection occurs. At this point, and from there on, there can not be any more first fruits/elect; as they will have been resurrected as we move into the next age.
But if we believe that the Revelation of Jesus Christ always "will be", then there can never be a consumation of this current age, because each individual can never be the last to make up the body of Christ/first fruits, because there will always be another "will be".
Does that make any sense? help would greatly be appreciated.
thanks.
--- End quote ---
Hi Laren!
Great to see you Brother, it has been a while, how are things with you?
It's ironic you posted your question approximately the same time I was referring mrsnacks to LOF Part 10 which is where you will find your answer,
"I am Alpha and Omega, the BEGINNING and the END"
Jesus Christ is the BEGINNING and the END; He IS, WAS, and WILL BE. The book of Revelation is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, therefore, the book of Revelation tells us what "IS [or ARE], WAS, and WILL BE." Everything spoken to the churches is, was, and will be. But not everything that "is, and was," "will be" eternally.
Virtually everything in the Bible pertains to the ages [Greek: aions]. All of these ages will come to and end, as will some things that are only used during eonian times or the times contained in the ages.
One of the prime examples of something that is only used during the ages, is JUDGMENT. When judgment brings about righteousness among all mankind, judgment will become a thing of the past, never to be used in the Kingdom of God again. No, something's "will be" NO MORE. Not until later in the book of Revelation are we told of NEW things to come and OLD things that "will be" no more.
I also had confusion over the is, was, will be but when we consider that it is primarily the charactor of Christ and the plan of salvation that does not change, it was set in place before the foundation of the earth and will not change until Christ hands the Kingdom to the Father and we are All in All. The is, was, will be is for all generations (especially the elect) in their season until the end of the ages.
Hope this helps a bit.
His Peace to you Brother,
Joe
Laren:
thanks Joe, helpful post.
I check in time to time, read a lot, but not posting much; still studying away.
I personally don't see the preterist view as denying the now, they just see the now as the fufilled, where new covenant/grace reigns, and God is all in all. If one studies the preterist view, there is some pretty convincing scriptural reasons they see it that way, but if we look around us, it's pretty hard to imagine this is the New Jerusalem.
Makes an interesting study.
If anyone interested in reading a great read on preterism/fufilled grace, PM me, it's a long book 968 pages.
Laren
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