free will?

[seminole]

So I was reading in the e-mails to Ray. I saw "free will" and read through it. There was a lot of info. in the e-mails section. I noticed in one of them that Ray told a person they wouldn't care about t.v. preachers or evil persons until they repented. No free will but you have to repent? Makes no sense to me. If you have to repent that implies a choice of repent or not to repent. A decision that is squarely on the shoulders of ourselves.

[Craig]

If you have to repent that implies a choice of repent or not to repent. A decision that is squarely on the shoulders of ourselves.

Sure you have to choose, and we all do/will make these choices everyday, it is just that the choice is not free of outside influences or causes.  It is a tough concept, that I still struggle with.   But it is so nice to finally, really believe, that God is 100% in control.

Craig

[hillsbororiver]

Here is an example of what Craig alluded to, you are walking to the store and a man brandishing a gun grabs you and says "give me your cash or I will shoot you and take it anyway" now if you had totally true free will you would;

1 disappear
2 turn his gun into a peanut butter sandwich
3 go back in time and decide not to go back out
4 become bullet proof
5 etc. (infinite amount of choices if we were "free" to choose anything at all within our imagination) you get my drift?

In the real world where we cannot do any of the things above we are restricted to a caused choice;

1 Give up the money
2 Attempt to disarm him (perhaps suffering dire consequences)
3 Use your own gun on him (if through a series of other circumstances you are armed at the time)

If we had "free will" who would will themself to be forced into this situation? So you see we have a limited amount of choices due to these circumstances, who is the only One who has the power to choreograph the circumstances?

This business of "free will" is even debated in the secular scientific community and many have determined the very limited freedom of choice we have is within a small subset of the circumstances we are surrounded by.

In Physical Science;
 
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/fundamentals/mg19025504.000-free-will--you-only-think-you-have-it.html

In Psychiatry;

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/aureview/1983/jan-feb/hunter.html

In Biology;

http://www.santafe.edu/events/abstract/55

Of course the scripture is the best source and Ray uses plenty in his article(s) on the subject;

http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html

His Peace to you,

Joe

[gmik]

Great Joe, thanks!

[YellowStone]

Does this work? 

God's will is free; he thinks, say's and it happens according to his plan or will.

My will is not free, I think, plan and say and 'maybe' something might happen according to my will (see this post)

Yet, did I truly will it? Was I not typing? Oops! How can I will it if I have to do it? Okay, let's see, its 4:17pm I am going to WILL the next sentence!

[YellowStone]

....continued by fingers .....

Well nothing happened. Kind of like me trying to will a cup of coffee in the morning. It has NEVER worked!

We simply CANNOT 'Cause' without action.

I know this is simplistic, but so is the concept when one begins to realize how "unfree" we realy are.



Comments welcome,

Love,
Darren

[skydreamers]

Hi seminole,

No free will but you have to repent? Makes no sense to me. If you have to repent that implies a choice of repent or not to repent. A decision that is squarely on the shoulders of ourselves

The thing is, all of the things which we all will need to do throughout our lives, including repentance, is also brought on by God:

Romans 2:4  Or do you despise the riches of his goodness, forbearance, and patience, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

1 John 4:19  We love him, because he first loved us.

We may think we are doing this or that, by our own power, but the truth is, without God teaching, guiding, influencing and yes, even controlling all things, we would literally be nowhere.

Proverbs 16:9  A man's mind plans his way, but the LORD directs his steps.

This has nothing to do with brute force...I'm not sure how you feel, but I often get the reaction that without free will, God then must be some tyrannical dictator forcing us to do this or that against our will.  But to me, it is much softer than that.  God knows us intimately inside and out, and knows exactly what is needed in our lives and circumstances to mold and bend (like a potter) our will to just where He needs it be at any given time.  This includes, as was mentioned on another thread, going against God's will for a time, in order for the eventual teaching and revealing of God's will to all men.

So he doesn't force us, but he knows what will harden our hearts, and he knows what will soften it.  He alone knows what it will take to change our minds about what we think, or what we are doing.  And I trust fully, that God will in the fullness of all time, soften every heart by the sheer ultimate revelation of his perfect love.  When the veil is finally lifted and we see the full truth, then surely every knee will bow, in awe, reverence and LOVE.  Even if the process is painful in the meantime.  The result will be glorious. 

So, yes, we must repent (change our ways and thinking), but how is it possible to do this while engulfed in the carnal mind, when the carnal mind is in hostile opposition to God??  The answer is that it is only possible when God decides it is time to LEAD you to repentance by his exquisitely clever high ways....we may not be aware that He is doing it, or how He is doing it, but the scripture says that it is, nonetheless, God who is bringing about all repentance in man.  It's certainly not from our power. 

God may decide to keep us under the illusion of free will for a time, but when our eyes our opened and we embrace this truth, this to me, has been REAL freeedom!

I hope this helps,
Peace to you,
Diana

[skydreamers]

Hi again,

I just wanted to add a quote from Ray:

Sure, it would not be fun to be forced to, for example, write a book that you don't want to write, but it's wonderful to be inspired to write a book that you can't wait to write!

(taken from the audio on free will)

[seminole]

With the leading, from God, towards repentance , still requires a "Yes, I will repent", or "No, I will not repent". Of course you can't type just by thinking of it, you have to choose to put your fingers on the keys and write something with some sense to it. Cause and effect is a given in our lives. Regardless of the cause or effect , we still have to choose an option. The bit about a gun was ridiculous. Sarcasm is not effective when one is asking a question and seeking an answer. I know that Ray uses sarcasm because he says Jesus did but I don't agree with him on that. Come on guys, if this is "Bible-Truths", let there be truth and respect among all those who seek. Just to get back to the analogy of someone holding a gun to me, I still have a choice to make: give over the goods, try to take the person down or try to flee.
Seminole

[hillsbororiver]

Seminole,

I am sorry my answer offended you but I was using an extreme example to make a point.

Did you check out the links I attached? Not to mention the link to Ray's paper on free will, sometimes it takes more than one reading to digest the message.

There are some very persuasive arguments showing that "free will" exists mainly in the minds of Babylon.

His Peace to you,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

Great Joe, thanks!

You are very welcome Gena.

His Peace to you,

Joe

[YellowStone]

Hi to everyone,

Before to many feathers get ruffled

How about a comment on my two posts. I know, there is no scriptual proof. Just simple laws of the universe that God created. Need we need more. 

Love to everyone.

Darren

[rocky]

For me, what was the turning point to not believing in free will was to do a study on the state of unregenerated man.  Who are we without the spirit??

The saying always is, Christ's sacrifice offered salvation to all, but until man reaaches out and takes the sacrifice, it's not effective. 

But when you look at the state of man spiriutally who is not regenerated, he is blind, deaf, leprosy, mute, demon possessed, lame, sick etc.  The healings of Christ physically are examples of our spiritual state without the Holy spirit. 

So how can a blind, deaf, mute, leporous, lame man reach out and take the gift of salvation unless he first is given eyes to see, ears to hear, and arms/legs to reach out. 

Faith is a fruit of the spirit, not the means to the spirit. 

Gal 5:22  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

For something to be of the spirit, it's origin is the spirit.  Faith's origin is the spirit, not free will. 

[skydreamers]

With the leading, from God, towards repentance , still requires a "Yes, I will repent", or "No, I will not repent".

Hi seminole,

Yes, you are right, choices are made by man.  Man has a will.  But if we assume that man's will can supersede God's will in a matter, than what are we really saying?  Man's will has more power or holds more authority than God's will? 

Even if, (for the sake of looking at both angles), man is able to say "no" to God...would God at some point give up on His creature, or is He able bring about endless circumstances until man says "yes"?

2 Samuel 14:14   And God does not take a life, but has devised plans so that the outcast is not cast out from Him.

Luke 15:4-5
4  "What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture, and go after the one which is lost, until he finds it?
5  "And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6  "And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!'

A sheep can make all sorts of choices as to which way he is going...but the Shepard does not give up until he finds it, and then brings that sheep home on his shoulders!!  How cool is that?  It is "on God's shoulders" to bring us home, into the fold.  It is by His strength and His power.  So while a sheep can make foolish choices and wander away from God into danger....and we have been all sheep who have gone astray...our heavenly Shepard does not get tired, or give up, or run out of ideas as to how to get His sheep home. 

This parable, to me, says so much.  Since when has it been up to sheep to find their Shepard??  And when the sheep is found, can he say:  "No, no, I don't want to go, leave me in the wilderness so I can find some more dangerous cliffs to fall off of."

The sheep is unable to resist the strength of the Shepard who knows what's best for him. 

We can make choices, and I think God orchestrates that we make choices destructive to our own lives, until we are like the prodigal son, wallowing in pig pens....he shows us the unbearable consequences of the wrong choices we make until we begin to make the right choices. 

If we believe the scripture that God is all-wise, all-knowing and all-powerful, than who or what can stop Him from "devising plans so that the outcast is NOT cast from Him"?

Job 42:2
"I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.


Seminole, I know this is a difficult subject.  It took me several months to come to grips with it and believe the scripture.  But God did not give up on me, nor will He give up on you.  For everyone it is different.  I have a friend who understood nearly right away!  You are searching and in time, God will show you His truth, I have no doubt of that. 

Ray's extensive writings on "the myth of free will" hold so much scriptural evidence it's astounding...but it still took me three full reads to absorb it and "get it". 

I hope this is somewhat helpful, but mostly I hope we are encouraging you enough to keep seeking...for God has promised, you shall find.

Peace and love to you,
Diana

[CDJ]

Numbers 22:23-31 "...And the a@@ saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and the a@@ turned aside out of the way, and went into the field: and Balaam smote the a@@, to turn her into the way.
But the angel of the LORD stood in a path of the vineyards, a wall being on this side, and a wall on that side.
And when the a@@ saw the angel of the LORD, she thrust herself unto the wall, and crushed Balaam's foot against the wall: and he smote her again.
And the angel of the LORD went further, and stood in a narrow place, where was no way to turn either to the right hand or to the left.
And when the a@@ saw the angel of the LORD, she fell down under Balaam: and Balaam's anger was kindled, and he smote the a@@ with a staff.
And the LORD opened the mouth of the a@@, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?
And Balaam said unto the a@@, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee.
And the a@@ said unto Balaam, Am not I thine a@@, upon which thou hast ridden ever since I was thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? and he said, Nay.
Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face..."

12 Years ago, I was 19 and left for a working holiday to Israel. In the year I spent there, free from discipline, a jewish waitress at a restaurant where I was a dishwasher, gave me a book "The a@@ saw the angel by Nick Cave" to read. The whole world was open in front of me and I was having a ball with my newfound intelligence, of being free, independant and streetsmart. I was very eager to read the book, but it wasn't the story itself that fascinated me - it was the foreword. I started reading Bible from then on with a newfound passion, but only found out 4 years later, that my little favourite piece of prose/foreword, which I copied onto the back of a restaurant-placemat ("who reads Numbers anyway, was my attitude), was actually quoted from Numbers 22:23-31... I still have that same placemat (miraculously), inside my Bible, because that's how God drew me 12 years ago... :-) ...and although it's sometimes hard to admit, but the story of Balaam's little donkey, jumping out the way the whole time, is basically everyones' little story.

6 or 7 years later, I'm in a meeting with 4 'disciples' and 2 'pastors', because I wasn't yet 'born-again/baptized', as all the others were that started with me. Sure, I had some issues, but was basically just stubborn. One pastor kept on talking when the other pastor interrupted and told me to open my Bible at Acts 17:26 and read out loud...

Acts 17:26-27 "...And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:..."

I've made bad choices in my life, as has everyone else, but, like Jonah chose to run away, God's will had other plans for him... Sit down and look back at your life, look at your choices and where they have lead you. We're always looking for the big earth-shattering stuff, but miss the little things that lead us to something. God knows us better than we think we know ourselves, and causes the right circumstances for your current attitude to make a choice.

I think what's great about us here, is that with our combined experiences, we basically cover everyone's background, where someone else can relate to, and yet everyday each of us learn something new. I've learned a whole bunch of stuff just reading through this thread.

Thanx everyone :-)

Walk strong in Christ :-)

[ciy]

Joe,
I appreciate the websites about free will.  That type of info is interesting and encouraging.

Diana
Great info.  I really like the verse in 2 Samuel.  

Darren
I think it is a good analogy.

Seminole
I do not think Joe was being sarcastic at all.  "No free will" is a hard thing to accept.  I was a big believer in free will and spoke on it often, but when that belief slowly eroded away I began to see how one is set free by this powerful truth of God's will and not my will.  Now I have studied it for several years and know that it is true, but daily I fall back into Bablyon with thoughts like "If I had done this and that I would be in a different place now." Evert moment, I have to capture each thought and forget the past so that I can press on toward that mark set before me.  

An example of you having "no free will", but you do have choices, is a wrestling match.  I remember one particular scuffle I had as a kid where the boy had me down and demanded, "Say uncle"
I said no and continued to struggle against him.  Again the demand. "Say uncle."
My firm will was that I was not going to say uncle, but the boy began to increase the pressure with each say uncle until finally my will changed and I opened my mouth and breathed out my new will and said the word "Uncle".
I wanted to say uncle because I had been caused to want to say it so I could stop the pain.
In my mind, I can very easily apply the verse in Psalm 37 "Delight yourself in the Lord and he will give you the desires of your heart."  See when I started wrestling the desire of my heart was to make him say uncle, but after I had "delighted myself in the Lord" during my struggle the desire of my heart was to say "Uncle".
I hope this does not offend.  This is how simplistic my mind works.  
God is Great
CIY

[YellowStone]

Hi CIY,

Your post makes perfect sense to me.

Returning to my simple analogy of "willing" coffee, or more correctly, my inability to "will" coffee; I can however, "choose" to make coffee and make it. Choice is ours to make.

We can even choose to come to God, learn of him and from him. No one said we cannot choose this, for I myself "chose" this a long time ago.

However, God's choice is vastly superior than my own. No one can come to him until he drags one to him (I can't lay my hands on that vs at this moment) Regardless of how seemingly pure our motives are, truth is God's to give, not ours to take.

I too, for the longest time was on the Free-Will band-wagon; however, I always meant free-choice. But even this is an oxymoron of the highest order.

Because no matter how hard of fervently I choose to be a better golfer than Tiger Woods, my ability is the limititation, not my ability to choose.

If I choose to practice long and hard and if God has given me the ability required, perhaps, and it is a very big perhaps I could become a fair golfer one day. If for example this did happen, what is truly respondsible? Was it that I chose to become, or was it simply the many hours, days, and perhaps years of dedicated practice?

I believe it was both, my choosing to practice, coupled with a goal prompted the much needed practice; this was the cause. The effect was my becomming a fair golfer.

So, even our choice is not really free, for I can choose to do many things, but unless I do them they come to nothing.

Sorry that there is not Scriptual witness in this post

Love in Christ,
Darren

[mari_et_pere]

I kind of see it like this: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Did I reply to this out of free will? Hmm......well I wouldn't have if there hadn't been an original post. I also wouldn't have if I didn't feel the desire to help or add my two cents in. But why do I feel that desire? I didn't choose to care about this post. I just do. And why? If it wasn't here, I wouldn't care, and therefore wouldn't be replying, correct?

The other day me and my wife were tense due to our hectic schedules. (outside chain of influence.) We were a bit snippy with each other. I went to work in a bad mood. On the way I got stuck in road construction. (another result of outside influences, not only at that very moment, but whatever messed the road up in the first place, which in turn made construction/repair necessary, scheduling which made it necessary for the construction to be on that particular day, and the other motorists' own chains of events that put them in that precise place at the moment along with me, who also had his own chain of events that put me there with them.) Ya follow? LOL. It's like a giant web.
Anyway, I was pretty flustered when I finally arrived work. Did I choose that? No, circumstances caused it. I finally "decided" to cheer up when I thought, ACCIDENTALLY THOUGHT, since the thought just occured to me (I didn't choose to have the thought, it was just there) that the right way to be is just brush the negative stuff of the morning away to go about my day the way I know is the right way. So then and only then did I finally "decide" to cheer up.
And of course, during my day "things happened" which caused other things to happen, causing us employees to "choose" courses of action throughout the day. Of course, I suppose I could've excercised my free will, said "forget about it" and left work, but of course that would do what? Cause ANOTHER chain of events that would cause me and my wife to have to "choose" courses of action.

A whole chain of events is what caused another chain of events. That chain has been turning since God created the earth. In fact, it appears that Creation itself was a chain of events. Our "free will" is extremely limited at best.

Ya see what I'm saying. Maybe not....................Just thought I'd "free willingly" add to the confusion  

Matt

[Kat]

Hi Matt,

I understand what you are saying completely.  I've tried to explain that everything is connected by circumstances beyond our control, but it's a hard thing to explain. 
If you think about it every thought, word, and action that happens is connected to everybody else's thought, word, and action so that every single thing is like a chain reaction that He controls and is "work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose." (Rom 8:28) 
To try and think of all the people in the world, having all things caused every second, wow.  How awesome God is to control all these things.
It is a very hard concept to contemplate, but He controls all things.

Eph 4:15  but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,
v. 16  from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[YellowStone]

To All,

I am a little confused

Is the line of thought regarding "free-will" only free if the effect comes without cause?

Well, if this is true then God surely has not free-will either; (Shock Horror)

Please follow along.......

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Why? Was this some random event that God had no control of? Did he not first choose?

Gen 1:3  And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

So when God said: Let there be light, it was NOT caused by some random thought, it was deliberate, God wanted light.

Gen 1:4  And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

God wanted there to be light and he "willed" that there was light. The light did not magically and suddenly appear with out cause.

God said prior to making man: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" (Gen 1:26)

Will anyone stand up and say that this thought came to God without reason or without cause?

Surely on this premise, God decided to create man for a reason. Could it be that he had already planned it? I simply do not believe that the creator of the entire universe, including the delicate petals and sweet fragrance of a rose did so without reason or cause. God is free to think, plan and do. There is nothing random about him.

So what is Free-Will when viewed in the context of God? Whatever God wants, regardless of motive, simply happens. Cause and effect, not effect without cause, everything happens (effect) because of God wants it too; he decides (cause) God has no constraints, inabilities or limitations in His ability but he is not without order. God first formed man, then he gave gave life to the lifeless form. (something we cannot do because we cannot cause life out of dust)

Gen 2:7  And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

God is free to will anything, not only because he is the creator of everything, but simply because he can. It is not the "free" in free-will that is important, it is the "will."  Can we say "Let there be light" and will a darkened room be lit? Well of cause we can, all we need is a voice activated light switch. The thought process is very similar to Gods, God did not want darkness always, and neither do we. Yet we need some electrical device to switch an electrical circuit so that electricity can light an electric light bulb (oh we better have electricy or we are still in the dark)

How many provisions must be in place for us to turn darkness into light? Plenty! Yet God needed only darkness. God said, "Let there be light" and possibly all of the stars including our Sun were made. Were they made in an instant, that is irrelevant. The simple fact is that he "caused" it, because he willed it, not because he was "free" to do so. God is under no such constraint.

I can "will" an object to fall to my feet, by releasing my fingers; however, I can only do so if I have control of my fingers, that the object is free to fall, that I can actually hold it, that I am not hanging upside down (I cant will it to fall up) Oh, and I need gravity, for a helium filled balloon would not fall.

Gosh, I can't will it to fall. I have to set everything up so that the object can fall, and even then I am reliant on gravity which is of God. I am free to choose what I want, but I CANNOT cause it to happen without intervention. I cannot "will" the words onto the computer screen, they appear because of a myriad of thoughts, systems, electrity, ideas, plans, failures, break throughs, etc. Which all occured (sometimes many years) before I press a key.

Everything we do is intrinsically based on what God allows to happen. He caused gravity when something falls; He created water so we can get wet. He gave us a sense of smell and he created fragrences; he gave us a mind and the ability to think, feel and discover, yet we will never discover anything that God knew not first. I can plan and build and I can make something happen; however, everything I do, think or feel is surrounded by myriads of constraints and my inept inability. I simply cannot "will" a cup of hot steaming coffee in the morning without intervention or action

God can, I can't!   

Please let me know your heartfelt thoughts on this. Of course my thoughts are limited by my experience, but my ability to cause like God, is simply non existent, free or not.

Much Love to Everyone,

Love in Christ,
Darren