What areas do you agree, or agree to disagree with Ray's teachings ?

[mrsnacks]

The title says it all.

I want to be honest with you all and I don't mean to be negative. I have been on this site here for about 4 -5 months, not long. But I have observed most here with few exceptions follow whatever Ray says on virtually all subjects concerning the Scriptures. Kat especially. She has been very helpful to me by the way. I am in no way coming down on anyone for this. But I can't help but think isn't it dangerous ? I say this because I have been involved in cults growing up where a leader was held as almost a god to be worshiped.

But in my life experiences I have learned that we are all human and have our strengths and lack in areas as well. For example a brother or sister in the Lord may be well versed in church history, apologetics, or what have you but not so knowledgeable in other areas.

I have a friend who is a prayer warrior. She prays and intercedes and spends a great deal of time doing that. While she may not be so knowledgeable in church history or Hebrew or Greek etc. She knows about prayer so if I have questions on prayer and interceding I would ask her. If I had questions concerning Biblical answers I would go and ask someone else seeking God perspective ultimately of course.
Does this make sense ?

We are to test everything as the Bereans did with Paul. What areas do you agree and agree to disagree with Ray is my question.

I will start. I have learned much from Ray and will continue to. I am in agreement with him concerning his comments on free will, the hell doctrine,
The lake of fire, judgment of God, and a few others. I do have a slight problem with him on areas of eschatology. Also I am going through ( not sure his total position ) what one person said to me awhile ago about the Garden of Eden story being an allegory. It is not to be taken literally he puts it. But that the 2 trees are planted in our beings. It is about us.

Plus salvation. If I am to understand Ray on that is that we are being saved. Those that endure to the end will be saved. So to me that takes the security blanket away from me. I may be deceived. I can't know for sure. It leaves me with the feeling of not knowing so how could one go to sleep at night at peace. Anyway there is my 2 cents.

[Bill]

The title says it all.

I want to be honest with you all and I don't mean to be negative. I have been on this site here for about 4 -5 months, not long. But I have observed most here with few exceptions follow whatever Ray says on virtually all subjects concerning the Scriptures. Kat especially. She has been very helpful to me by the way. I am in no way coming down on anyone for this. But I can't help but think isn't it dangerous ? I say this because I have been involved in cults growing up where a leader was held as almost a god to be worshiped.

But in my life experiences I have learned that we are all human and have our strengths and lack in areas as well. For example a brother or sister in the Lord may be well versed in church history, apologetics, or what have you but not so knowledgeable in other areas.

I have a friend who is a prayer warrior. She prays and intercedes and spends a great deal of time doing that. While she may not be so knowledgeable in church history or Hebrew or Greek etc. She knows about prayer so if I have questions on prayer and interceding I would ask her. If I had questions concerning Biblical answers I would go and ask someone else seeking God perspective ultimately of course.
Does this make sense ?

Mrsnacks,

I will keep this short as I do not believe this thread will be around long.  There is very little tolerance for disagreement on Ray on this forum.  This is not what this forum is for.  In the past it has been said that there is no one that Ray agrees with 100% and those area of disagreement do not get aired out in the public.  Do you not think there is a proper way to handle disagreements?

We are to test everything as the Bereans did with Paul. What areas do you agree and agree to disagree with Ray is my question.

How are we to test everything? That is the question.

Plus salvation. If I am to understand Ray on that is that we are being saved. Those that endure to the end will be saved. So to me that takes the security blanket away from me. I may be deceived. I can't know for sure. It leaves me with the feeling of not knowing so how could one go to sleep at night at peace. Anyway there is my 2 cents.

I see salvation as this is,was and will be and I do believe so does Ray.  We can rest assured because we know that we are as good as being saved.


God Bless

Bill

[hillsbororiver]

Hi mrsnacks,

I speak only for myself here, I have not been able to scripturally refute the points made in Ray's articles, nor have I seen it done convincingly by anyone else.

Plenty of times I have seen people's emotions and feelings claim Ray is mistaken but not with 2 scriptural witnesses. Also, I have heard people who complain about some of Ray's e-mail responses saying he is unloving or rude, I have not seen that when the writer asks a sincere question in a God fearing humble manner, quite the contrary, a sincere question gets a sincere answer, but when the intent is challenging, abusive, accusational or threatening Ray pulls no punches in his responses, I believe he uses very good discernment in his answers.

My own experience has been that I prayed fervently as a youth for answers from God, I had many terrible experiences as a child and an adolescent, step by step I went through a few churches did not fit in and searched on my own at times sporadically and other times manically, this went on for 34 years, I read scores of Christian and/or prophetic books only becoming more confused. August 2, 2005 I stumbled onto Bible Truths, I was 51 years old and when I began to read the articles I saw that my prayer from 34 years ago had been answered, His Word is alive, my eyes are opening, the Spirit used Ray Smith to reach me and teach me.

I am not a follower of Ray but I am a follower of the Spirit of Christ who I truly believe inspires Ray.

Again, I speak for myself here.

His Peace to you,

Joe 

[rick]

I dont really believe that Ray teaches what "he believes" but he teaches what the scriptures say. and i have to believe that 100% because i can find nothing to refute it.God inspired the scriptures and has inspired Ray to deliver those scriptures to those whom He and only He has opened the eyes,ears and heart to receive it. I too begged God for the truth for many many years and now I am not so sure that is really what I wanted because knowing the truth changes our whole life. if I had died in a deceived state, i would be no worse off, because regardless of what I believe, that does not change what God has in store for man at all. God will work all things after the counsel of His own will. period. Just my thoughts, hope i have not offended any one. .............rick

[aktikt]

Rick,

It's hard for me to accept that you have said this,

"I dont really believe that Ray teaches what "he believes" but he teaches what the scriptures say. and i have to believe that 100% because i can find nothing to refute it.God inspired the scriptures and has inspired Ray to deliver those scriptures to those whom He and only He has opened the eyes,ears and heart to receive it. I too begged God for the truth for many many years and now I am not so sure that is really what I wanted because knowing the truth changes our whole life. if I had died in a deceived state, i would be no worse off, because regardless of what I believe, that does not change what God has in store for man at all. God will work all things after the counsel of His own will. period. Just my thoughts, hope i have not offended any one. .............rick"

If you had died in that state you would not be part of the Lake of Fire if indeed God chooses you, but rather you would be made subject to it!  There is a huge difference there as I understand it.  It is far better to be among the elect come judgment day.  To have Jesus say to you, "Well done good and faithful servant."  Wow.

Josh

[Deborah-Leigh]

Mrsnacks

you write:
I have a friend who is a prayer warrior. She prays and intercedes and spends a great deal of time doing that. While she may not be so knowledgeable in church history or Hebrew or Greek etc. She knows about prayer so if I have questions on prayer and interceding I would ask her. If I had questions concerning Biblical answers I would go and ask someone else seeking God perspective ultimately of course.
Does this make sense ?

Have you read Ray's paper on How to Pray? It teaches that you can not bend Gods will or change His mind. Also there are many e-mail responses from Ray regarding how and why we need to pray! As for being a Prayer Warrior, I personally believe this is a phrase coined in Mystery Babylon. How can one war against God's plan and succeed? No one and nothing can change God's purposes. Jesus said Luke 10:20 ...do not rejoice at this that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are enrolled in heaven.

You say : If I am to understand Ray on that is that we are being saved. Those that endure to the end will be saved. So to me that takes the security blanket away from me.

Isn't this "security blanket" as you say rather an ARTIFICIAL SENSE OF SECURITY? I think so. In which case be glad to be rid of it!
I may be deceived. I can't know for sure. It leaves me with the feeling of not knowing so how could one go to sleep at night at peace. You say

Psalms 31 : 13 For I have heard the slader of many; terror IS on every side!

So this expereince is not unusual or strange. Yet here is what David found out...

vs 13 While they schemed together agianst me, they plotted to take my life. 14 But I trusted in, relied on, and was confident in You O Lord; I said You are my God. 15 MY TIMES ARE IN YOUR HANDS

and that is the BOTTOM LINE....Our times ARE in HIS Hands. That is a good thing and a happy thought  So rather take that as your security blanket!

Peace to you

Arcturus

[YellowStone]

Mr Snacks,

I think Joe said it wonderfully (at least for me)

I am not a follower of Ray but I am a follower of the Spirit of Christ who I truly believe inspires Ray.

I can honestly say that I have learned more through the wonderful discourse of this forum and through the Spirit of Truth that is very evident here, than I have reading Rays articles.

Why, because as you say, this forum speaks of what WE have learned through our readings of the Scriptures and life experiences. Much of what Ray has written resurfaces here, and believe me it gets much scrutiny. But Ray has said nothing that wasn't first said by God, Christ or one of his devoted followers.

This forum is not titled "Ray's Truths" for a reason. He speaks the truth as given him by God. Like Joe also, I cannot refute him Scriptually, although once or twice I tried. If Ray say's something I disagree with, I cannot and do not automatically assume that he is right. It is my duty as a follower of Christ to test everything, and study and struggle I do. Christ is my teacher, and thankfully He has never proved Ray wrong.

Ray cannot teach you anything Christ does not want you to learn. Comforting isn't it.

These are my thoughts, comments welcome.

Love in Christ,
Darren

[Kat]

Hi mrsnacks,

I can understand your thinking I believe whatever Ray says.  I guess I come across that way.  But that's not exactly right, however I do believe what he teaches in the scripture.  I studied his papers 7 months before I joined the forum, because I wanted to spend as much time as I needed to determine if what he taught was true.  I have studied his teaching searching the scripture for any contradiction.  I have come to believe that God has given Ray exceptional discernment of the scripture.  After learning many spiritual concepts about how to study and understand the scripture, I am now beginning to study scripture on my own.  But to took someone to teach me for over a year and only by His Holy Spirit, have I learned anything.

I am not new at this following a man thing, I was in Worldwide church of God for 15 years, and that is exactly what that church was about.  God finally took me out of that church and put me a Baptist for 10 years.  You would think I'd have learned from all that experiences with church and I did.  I understand the churches role in God plan, but I learned nothing spiritual while there.  I do not follow Ray and hang on every word he says, like you must think.  He is a brother and I respect what God is doing through him.  I do know Ray personally, I attend his monthly biblestudies and he is a good friend of mind.  If there is something I don't understand or disagree with Ray on, I ask him about it privately, which anyone can do through email.

Like I said at the beginning I understand how you must think, because I do agree with Ray on most everything, and I guess it shows because I point a lot of the time to his articles that I learned from.  You might have meant what you said about how I look to Ray in a negative way, but I'm going to take it as a compliment  
Ray is nothing but an instrument in God's hand, just like I am, it's all Christ, Ray knows it and I know it.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Kent]

I take no ones word for anything, and that includes Ray. I have been led astray in the past and it could happen again if I dont check out everything that is said against the scriptures. It's not personal.

There is a tendence, in my opinion, to spiritualize every word Christ spoke.
If people had done that in AD 70, there would have been no survivors when Rome sacked Jerusalem.
In other word, when Christ said 'when you see x,y,and z happen, get out of town quick!'
Some prophecies are meant to be taken literally.

Other than that, I thank God for him and this website. It was the first one I came to when UR was revealed to me. I have learned a lot.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Taking Gods Word for EVERYTHING is the way to go for me and God's Word is Spirit. For me that means...Gods Word is Spirit...not anything else.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[Patrick]

If there is something I don't understand or disagree with Ray on, I ask him about it privately, which anyone can do through email.

(Forum rules) http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3.0.html

THE IMPORTANT STUFF:

This forum is primarily a place for people of a like mind to fellowship, and secondarily to discuss and question what they learn on bible-truths.com.

If you seriously disagree with Ray, please email him directly.

Ray is nothing but an instrument in God's hand, just like I am, it's all Christ, Ray knows it and I know it.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

You can meet him "in person" in a few days; you just have to travel to Nashville, TN.

[rick]

Does knowing the truth automatically qualify us as Gods chosen and elect? I really have no idea if God has chosen me as His elect to be raised at the 1st ressurection. is there a way to know for sure?? if so, please tell me............rick

Rick,

It's hard for me to accept that you have said this,

"I dont really believe that Ray teaches what "he believes" but he teaches what the scriptures say. and i have to believe that 100% because i can find nothing to refute it.God inspired the scriptures and has inspired Ray to deliver those scriptures to those whom He and only He has opened the eyes,ears and heart to receive it. I too begged God for the truth for many many years and now I am not so sure that is really what I wanted because knowing the truth changes our whole life. if I had died in a deceived state, i would be no worse off, because regardless of what I believe, that does not change what God has in store for man at all. God will work all things after the counsel of His own will. period. Just my thoughts, hope i have not offended any one. .............rick"

If you had died in that state you would not be part of the Lake of Fire if indeed God chooses you, but rather you would be made subject to it!  There is a huge difference there as I understand it.  It is far better to be among the elect come judgment day.  To have Jesus say to you, "Well done good and faithful servant."  Wow.

Josh
[/quote]

[Craig]

Does knowing the truth automatically qualify us as Gods chosen and elect?

Absolutely..............NOT

Craig

[Robin]

mrsnacks,

I can't count the number of times I haven't been able to sleep at night when I wrestle with new truth that I learn. That is just the kind of personality I have. My brother learns with excitement and I head into the unknown with fear. That is the carnal part of me that God deals with when he teaches me. God has never failed though to give me the faith needed to move forward in what he has taught me. I can vividly remember learning that I can't trust myself. I can't trust myself to keep myself from being deceived. Deceived people don't know they are deceived. I am not beyond being deceived and I have to put my trust in God. If I am chosen in this age God will not let me be deceived.

When I first found this site the only thing God had taught me was the free will series. It's the first thing I read when coming here. I laughed and cried when reading it. There were some things written that I had learned and never heard anyone else say. Ray said it though. It is the first time I'd ever heard anyone besides my brother believe the same thing that God taught me. That is the only reason I was able to read and bring Ray's other teaching before God.

Before coming here I knew the trinity teaching wasn't correct, but I didn't have the answers. I tried for years to prove hell wrong, but couldn't do it. I was very excited that Ray had the answers to there being no hell. Learning who Christ is was much harder for me to accept and I struggled with it before God and was able to accept it after reading all the scripture that Ray wrote out and testing all of it. It threw me into one of those head spins for a few weeks though.



Ephesians 4
7But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8This is why it says:
   "When he ascended on high,
      he led captives in his train
      and gave gifts to men." 9(What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[c]? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. 16From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.[/b]

God chose not to continue teaching me through revelation of scripture. I spent 10 long years waiting for God to teach me something new. I searched the internet for years looking for anyone who believed the way I do and found no one. I finally looked to God and prayed. If you have a teacher alive anywhere in this world please lead me to him if it is your will for me to have a teacher. That is when I found this site.

I have always had a million questions since the time I was 4 years old. God doesn't mind that I have questions and he is always faithful to answer them. If I believe something is true you can be assured that I have questioned it to exhaustion, broke it into a million pieces, and put it back together in a way that I understand it. That's why it takes me so long to learn anything. I'm glad God is patient with me.

I believe that God has appointed Ray to be a teacher. If he taught something against what God has already taught me I'd be asking some serious questions. I haven't found anything yet though and I'm learning much more.

John 10
When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice."

[skydreamers]

Hi Mr. Snacks,

But I can't help but think isn't it dangerous ? I say this because I have been involved in cults growing up where a leader was held as almost a god to be worshiped.

It's understandable that this would be a fear of yours.  I think you are wise to be cautious.  I may be generalizing here, but I think that Cult Leaders generally seek to exalt themselves for some sort of personal gain, monetary or otherwise.  Or they are just plain crazy.  Obviously, I don't think that Ray falls into either of these categories. 

Sometimes it's the people who seek to exalt a leader...I think sometimes this is human nature, to want someone tangible to look to and seek answers from.  We are like sheep, afterall yearning for a shepard...and the carnal mind wants that to be a physical type thing.  This is the danger; not continually seeking Christ and his Word for the answers, and checking everything against scripture. 

I came into Christianity through the SDA church.  Along with the Bible, members also highly respect and study writings from a woman Ellen White who was one of the pioneers of the church.  She claimed to have direct visions from God and wrote hundreds of books and papers....they say she had the "Spirit of Prophecy".  Needless to say, there are some members of the church (not all mind you) who become very upset if you question any of her writings.  SDA's are accused of holding her as at least equal authority to the bible...I think this is why this particular church is often thought of as a cult.  (Not all SDA's view her with such authority).  She has some beautiful writings that at the time, drew me closer to Christ.  But in time, I discovered that she also claimed some things that can not be proven scripturally, or they just don't line up with scripture. 

Since coming into some truths and then stumbling on bibletruths and seeing how scriptural Ray's writings are...I've left the SDA church and their teachings behind.

It's a lesson for me in realizing that no one man or woman holds ALL the truth.  I imagine that would be overwhelming for one person.  But certainly there can be people who teach a pure truth that is not mingled with lies.  So far, the portions of truth I have studied that have been pointed out by Ray, seem hard to refute, as others here have said.

All we can do is continue to ask God to open our eyes and lead us out of deception.  I look at other material from time to time but keep coming back here.  I have never met Ray, but it seems to me he is a humble man who is willing to admit when he may have been off the mark (as he did on a recent audio).  It's a lot of work to do what he does, for literally no gain, and I think he tries very hard to make sure he has studied and prayed long enough over a topic before he posts a paper about it.

I think most of us here are more in awe of the truths we have learned in scripture, rather than being in awe of Ray.  But I respect and admire the sacrifices he's made to share what he has learned in his life's spiritual journey.

Peace,
Diana

[mari_et_pere]

Someone stated in this thread:

I will keep this short as I do not believe this thread will be around long.  There is very little tolerance for disagreement on Ray on this forum.  This is not what this forum is for.  In the past it has been said that there is no one that Ray agrees with 100% and those area of disagreement do not get aired out in the public.  Do you not think there is a proper way to handle disagreements?

I have a MAJOR problem with this! The "Christian" school I attended for 12 years had that same type of argument! If not for debate, then what? Complacency? Does questioning things politely and orderly not pave way to progress or knowledge? Do you not think that that IS a proper way to handle "disagreements"? If anyone here believes that Ray is the first person to ever come to the truths that he writes about, then they are sadly mistaken! He's obviously a great man of God, and he's obviously led by God for God and is 100% sincere, or at least seems to me to be. HOWEVER I emphatically WILL NOT be told that "there is little tolerance for what you have to say" when what I say is honest question or comment.
If to question one of "Ray's teachings" is intolerable here, then I don't even know what to think of this forum anymore! Fact: questioning "Ray's teachings" is not questioning Ray, it's questioning the teaching. Shame on anyone who won't allow one to ask why or how a certain teaching came about. Do you think that Ray never questioned anything? Are we to not discern or "test as the Bereans" as the original poster stated?
It's funny; when I saw this thread title I thought "I'm gonna check out what they're saying and warn them that while we believe what Ray says, that doesn't mean we should be accidentally putting our faith in RAY." But the very first post did that for me. My apologies to anyone who thinks I am seeming to react in anger; I truly don't want to come off that way, but it really irks me when myself or somebody else is told that "you can't say that here" when it's an honest, politely stated question or comment.
Imagine for a moment if you will: Jesus is teaching a multitude, and a man comes to Him with an honest, potentially life-changing question, and one of Jesus' disciples steps in and says, "There is little tolerance for disagreement with Jesus and his words here! You can't ask things like that in public! That is a private matter!"

If that were the case, WHERE WOULD YOU BE RIGHT NOW?

Matt

[Robin]

Anyone is free to email Ray and express their disagreement with his teaching. Most emails are posted on the public forum. We can't speak for him.

The rules are here if you have questions.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3.0.html

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3614.0.html

[Chris R]

Hello folks,

Before I lock the thread, I'm going to explain for the 100th time what it is that we are trying to accomplish here.

"We" the Bible truth moderators, Including Dennis, In no way wish to "silence" you, or what you believe. It is not our intention to persuade one single person to beleive what is written on this site, nor can we!

It is our intention to create a place were like minded believers can come and discuss the writings of L. Ray smith.  You can disagree with Ray all you want!
We just ask that you go/write to him directly, IT IS NOT FAIR THAT RAY IS CHALLENGED WITHOUT HAVING A CHANCE TO DEFEND HIMSELF.

Now that being said..these threads about agreeing/disagreeing with Ray Are useless to our readers, they ALREADY KNOW were they agree, or disagree with Ray Smith, We dont need to take a poll!

And now since I locked the topic, I'm sure 20% will feel i'm being unfair, and Am a follower of Ray, and blind, and want to silence the opposition, and on..and on..and on.. [ive heard it all before]... And i'm sorry i cannot convince you otherwise.

But beleive me when i say, There are hundreds of pages of material on this site yet to be discussed.

I hope you can understand.

Chris R