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Craig

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Questions and Truth
« on: May 10, 2007, 01:24:26 PM »

I've been associated with this forum as long as anyone except for Dennis.  And in those years I can say that I've nearly seen it all.  I know what happens when certain topics gets brought up and peoples reactions to certain happenings.

One thing that I see posted allot is the statement that nobody knows all the truths of God.  With this I agree, but what about the truths they do know?  The truth is the truth and we can see by all the denominations and religions that the majority has not a clue what the truth actually is.  How much truth did Paul have?  John?, did some of the scripture they brought out have only some truth?

I am not comparing Ray to Paul or John, and Ray will tell you he doesn't know all there is about scripture, but the parts that he writes he believes to be truth, inspired by God as taught by men such as Paul and John etc.  Ray takes his search for the truth seriously and that is why he uses so much scripture and gives very little opinion.  If you study Ray's writing and think he is in error then by all means email him or ask the question here.  Unlike some would have you believe, questioning Ray's articles is allowed here.  It is just the debating of the topic that is not allowed.  And bringing your own teaching to a topic is not either, as we explain in the forum rules.  (The mods don't have the time or talent ;) to determine if your opinion is right or wrong)

In my time moderating this forum, I doubt there has been more than 20 times that a thread has been outright deleted.  That only happens when a thread is posted to do nothing but cause trouble on the forum.  A poster is warned in a PM about a particular subject and they decide to go down in a blaze of glory.   Some of the time a topic is moved to a holding area and the poster changes his/her mind about really wanting it posted or not.

Most times a thread is locked when questions are asked and scripture is given to support the question asked, and Ray's explanation of a topic is given. Then the person asking the questions will either not address the answers given or try and deflect the question entirely.  In those times the thread is locked because the discussion is leading nowhere and we can agree to disagree.  Look at past locked topics and see if that is not the case much of the time.

Even today I still can't believe the number of people who ask questions on the forum or answer a question and have not even read Ray's articles.  How many times do we see this in Ray's emails?  Ray, is often short with these people because he has answered that question many times in his articles.

Another thing I just don't get is those who say they can only be led by the spirit and that leading is were the truth is found.  If that is true why is there so many denominations and teachers who all claim to be led by the spirit?  There is only one truth, so when they disagree, what spirit is leading all of them?  I think we need to be more like the Bereans who prayed and studied the Word for the answers.  They also questioned but they used the Word for the final authority, and the spirit for discernment.

Now maybe some have found where they believe Ray is in error, nobody here can speak for Ray so if that is your opinion then debate it with Ray.  Personally I have not found to much to disagree about on the topics of Ray's articles because the scripture bares witness to his writing.  If there is a topic I don't agree on, then I don't bring it up here.  Why?, Because there is a wealth of information we can grow with and agree upon.

Please folks feel free to ask the honest, trying to understand questions.  But before you do at least read Ray's teachings first.

Blessings!
Craig
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Bill

  • Guest
Re: Questions and Truth
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2007, 03:01:29 PM »

I've been associated with this forum as long as anyone except for Dennis.  And in those years I can say that I've nearly seen it all.  I know what happens when certain topics gets brought up and peoples reactions to certain happenings.

One thing that I see posted allot is the statement that nobody knows all the truths of God.  With this I agree, but what about the truths they do know?  The truth is the truth and we can see by all the denominations and religions that the majority has not a clue what the truth actually is.  How much truth did Paul have?  John?, did some of the scripture they brought out have only some truth?

I am not comparing Ray to Paul or John, and Ray will tell you he doesn't know all there is about scripture, but the parts that he writes he believes to be truth, inspired by God as taught by men such as Paul and John etc.  Ray takes his search for the truth seriously and that is why he uses so much scripture and gives very little opinion.  If you study Ray's writing and think he is in error then by all means email him or ask the question here.  Unlike some would have you believe, questioning Ray's articles is allowed here.  It is just the debating of the topic that is not allowed.  And bringing your own teaching to a topic is not either, as we explain in the forum rules.  (The mods don't have the time or talent ;) to determine if your opinion is right or wrong)

In my time moderating this forum, I doubt there has been more than 20 times that a thread has been outright deleted.  That only happens when a thread is posted to do nothing but cause trouble on the forum.  A poster is warned in a PM about a particular subject and they decide to go down in a blaze of glory.   Some of the time a topic is moved to a holding area and the poster changes his/her mind about really wanting it posted or not.

Most times a thread is locked when questions are asked and scripture is given to support the question asked, and Ray's explanation of a topic is given. Then the person asking the questions will either not address the answers given or try and deflect the question entirely.  In those times the thread is locked because the discussion is leading nowhere and we can agree to disagree.  Look at past locked topics and see if that is not the case much of the time.

Even today I still can't believe the number of people who ask questions on the forum or answer a question and have not even read Ray's articles.  How many times do we see this in Ray's emails?  Ray, is often short with these people because he has answered that question many times in his articles.

Another thing I just don't get is those who say they can only be led by the spirit and that leading is were the truth is found.  If that is true why is there so many denominations and teachers who all claim to be led by the spirit?  There is only one truth, so when they disagree, what spirit is leading all of them?  I think we need to be more like the Bereans who prayed and studied the Word for the answers.  They also questioned but they used the Word for the final authority, and the spirit for discernment.

Now maybe some have found where they believe Ray is in error, nobody here can speak for Ray so if that is your opinion then debate it with Ray.  Personally I have not found to much to disagree about on the topics of Ray's articles because the scripture bares witness to his writing.  If there is a topic I don't agree on, then I don't bring it up here.  Why?, Because there is a wealth of information we can grow with and agree upon.

Please folks feel free to ask the honest, trying to understand questions.  But before you do at least read Ray's teachings first.

Blessings!
Craig

Criag,

I know you guys have difficult roles as mods and I thank all of you for your efforts.

I am of the mind set that the Truth will always prevail and like to discuss a topic with both sides.  I do remember when that was allowed here in a certain area and it allowed allot of growth for me personally.  Especially seeing that the Truth always did come out on top.  But as you and some others may know that was not the direction Ray wanted it to go.  I have great respect for Ray and respect his decision to do so as it is because of his papers and his work that we have this site and forum.  As Rays says if you do not like go start your own site.

Anyways with that said thanks for the post I know you guys reserve the right to take any action without explanation but it is still comforting to see the why some things are done and allow us to see the other side.


God Bless


Bill 

« Last Edit: May 10, 2007, 03:11:11 PM by Bill »
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mari_et_pere

  • Guest
Re: Questions and Truth
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2007, 03:50:56 PM »

I think I may have offended some by commenting to a recent thread.......if so I humbly apologize because I never want to offend anyone, no matter what. I'd stand behind what I meant to say, but not behind anything offensive.
I guess I was caught off guard with some sort of "censorship" issue that stems from my upbringing. If the rules state we can't challenge Ray, then we/I must abide by that. If not then my only option is to leave, and I'd hate to do that because I was involved in this when it was still a Yahoo group. That's not to say I have any huge issues that would make me think about leaving the group. I'm not involved enough to make an impact even if I did leave LOL! This all isn't even to say that I actually disagree with Ray. I'm in perfect alignment with his teachings so far.
I guess I was offended because of the fact that it wasn't Ray that was being challenged. Far from it. It was simply a discussion about his teachings. Not the man himself. If we all got on here everyday and said "I agree with that." "Yes, met too," then what? We'd all agree to agree all the time. I enjoy the "what if's" and the "what about this or that's?" and the challenges and questions about Ray's teachings. But I digress. I only wanted to post this to apologize if anyone was offended, not to ramble. LOL

Matt
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Kent

  • Guest
Re: Questions and Truth
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2007, 05:24:28 PM »

I have been led down the wrong path so many times that I am hyper-vigilant to deception, because I know that the deceived does not know he is deceived until it is 1) too late, or 2) God reveals it.

How many other here have been deceived by false teachers? I bet 100% have been.

So, it's not that Rays teachings, that are really based on scripture, are being doubted or questioned, it's the lack of my undstanding that leads to these questions. The answers that are provided are true, IMO. I have yet to find anything that I really disagree with when it omes to freewill and hell topics. I thank God for the articles he took the time to research, write, and post.

Just because someone asks a question does not mean they have ulterior motives.
And the inability to ask questions is a hallmark of cults. Talk about a red flag to someone that has been deceived numerous times already...!

We're all adults here, we know when a question has been adequately answered using scripture and other legitimate references, and when the person that has been enlightened continues to be a problem. It is obvious.

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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: Questions and Truth
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2007, 05:43:14 PM »

Matt,

I think there is a marked difference between a discerning question and accusatory remark.

I am sure the moderators will support this. No one said that questions are outlawed. :)

But please understand that a question is not always a question, not if is framed with hostility or an ulterior motive, evident by the thought pertaining to the question.

However, it is not hard to frame a question in order to determine the motive. For example: "Please forgive me, but this is all new to me and I am not sure if I get it. Hopefully God, with the help of some of you will help me understand, because I always believed this......"

Clearly the above example does not indicate that you are unwilling to learn, or that you wish to impose a different view. Of course it is useful knowing what you believe or were taught, I find it hard to believe that you believe something that at least someone here has never heard or believed before. :)

So Matt, ask away, but please always ask with an open heart and an open mind and be prepared to hear something you may never have before considered. Remember also, that some here may plant the seeds of truth, but only God can make it grow.

1Cr 3:6  I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

1Cr 3:7  So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

Love to you my brother,
Darren
« Last Edit: May 11, 2007, 10:55:18 PM by YellowStone »
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mari_et_pere

  • Guest
Re: Questions and Truth
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2007, 03:25:20 AM »

Darren, I was actually referring to someone else's question because of the reaction that they got when they asked the question, and I thought that thread plus my reaction (sorta angry) may have prompted Craig to post this thread, but thanks for what you said. I'm in total agreement with all of it. I just felt bad after reacting harshly in my reply the other day......if it had been in person, you'd have seen my red-faced and yelling, making myself seem like a fool, only later to tuck my tail and say "sorry for being a jerk." Thank God it's just the internet LOL!

And Kent, I totally, totally 100% agree with ya dude! For real.

Matt
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Questions and Truth
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2007, 05:00:11 PM »

Even though this Forum isn't the same as meeting with others face to face in some ways this can be a more effective tool for each of us in regard to learning patience, discernment & longsuffering.

We do not have the advantage of being able to see body language, hear voice intonation or see the furrowed brow or the mischievous smile in our communication with each other, what may initially seem to be a flippant or callous response may just well be a sincere attempt at communicating an idea. We are a very diverse group from different parts of the U.S. and the world, different education levels and lifestyles. A lawyer from New York will have a totally different vantage point, communication style & background than let's say a potato farmer in Iowa, a shopkeeper in London a different style than a lifeguard in Australia. For that matter just watch the difference between an architect and a Construction Manager as they discuss/debate the merits of certain designs and materials, they could be twins and not see eye to eye or communicate and hear ear to ear!  ;) 

We need to remember our common bond, the Lord Jesus Christ and we also need to keep in mind that the writings of Ray on Bible Truths is the reason we all were interested in joining this Forum. So if our initial reaction to a member's post is anxiety or even anger, let us first remember the reasons we are all here together and cut the brethren some slack, let us err on the side of patience rather than on the side of self righteousness or pride or a need to "be right." I have been just as guilty as anyone else in the past and I am learning to refrain from the emotional man speaking as I pray for His spiritual patience to grow within me, learning from each opportunity, step by step.

His Peace to you,

Joe   
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seminole

  • Guest
Re: Questions and Truth
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2007, 10:13:34 PM »

I am not sure if "the reaction" mentioned above was the same reaction I got when I ask a question. If that is what the post was referring to please don't give it another thought on my accord. My motive for being here was questioned. I think it was because I was questioning something said by Ray who is no more or less than anyone else in this world. I explained the best I could that I had e-mailed a question regarding something to Ray but I didn't wabt to interrupt the studies of those here so I wouldn't go into the question here. It would be great if we who venture here were not looked at with suspicion. I got here because of the title Bible-truths so as a believer I was interested in reading and study. That's all. Nothing more and nothing less. Censorship, it's not so great. A post I had made was removed becaus of the question I had. It was pretty cold. Felt like a witch hunt or something. I ended up feeling embarrassed because the "dressing down" was up long enough for other's to read it. I ended up saying "whatever you see fit to do with it" when I was censored. All of that by way of explanation and NOT to create a problem. If the explanation is worded wrong, I apologize.
I understand that this site belongs to someone . So if reading and studying and trying to grow in the Lord is okay I am pleased. My way of learning is oftentimes questioning to gain understanding.
Seminole
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mari_et_pere

  • Guest
Re: Questions and Truth
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2007, 03:35:18 AM »

Uh.....actually my reaction wasn't to a question per se, and in a different thread, but the comments struck me pretty hard, but yeah no more thoughts about it indeed. I think though, and this is for real, I think we need to give people a fair chance and not assume that they are attacking or something. I know what you're saying indeed!

And Joe, I totally hear ya man! That was very well said.

Matt
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Questions and Truth
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2007, 08:39:07 AM »

Seminole

You write:

Ray who is no more or less than anyone else in this world.

Not according to me is Ray no more or LESS than anyone else in this world. He is a TEACHER that is far more and not less than others in this world. What an awesome accountability Ray has. What a huge privilege Ray has to be a vessel of the voice of Christs Mind and Spirit blessing us through Ray.

Seminole you write :

Censorship, it's not so great.

Think about that comment. For whom is censorship not so great? The sheep or the wolves? Do you REALLY believe censorship is not so great? What then is it meant that Christ gave to the body Pastors...pastoral shepherds. What does it mean that Christ said that He is the true Shepherd who lays down His life for His sheep? What does it mean that Jesus said He is not a hireling. A hireling is a religious hobbyist hunts with the hounds and runs with the hairs so to speak? Censorship is the boundary of discipline that corrects to the advantage of the one being censored and guided and protected.


A post I had made was removed becaus of the question I had. It was pretty cold. Felt like a witch hunt or something. I ended up feeling embarrassed because the "dressing down" was up long enough for other's to read it.

I did not read it but so what if I had. We are all here to learn.


I understand that this site belongs to someone .

What are you trying to say here. Are you trying to diminish the site by drawing attention to SOMEONE who is accountable for this site? It sure sounds that way and if it is not please explain and clarify this.


So if reading and studying and trying to grow in the Lord is okay I am pleased.

What does THAT mean? IF reading and studying and trying to grow in the Lord is okay. What does that mean? Of course it is OKAY. In fact it is Scriptural to study in earnest the word of God!

My way of learning is oftentimes questioning to gain understanding.

You are not alone in your method of learning. If you look on the home page it says and I quote : Questions about bible-truths articles? Visit our discussion group.[/color]

I think you are at the right place at the right time here at Bible-Truths for your need to grow in the Lord which is more than okay!

Peace to you

Arcturus
:)
« Last Edit: May 13, 2007, 08:42:30 AM by Arcturus »
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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: Questions and Truth
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2007, 11:01:05 AM »


Hi Arcturus, I feel your frustration in regard to Ray being no more or less than any other. ???

Be not suprised, for surely the world can only "see" physical things, so they could not possibly see the "spiritual" aspects of Ray, just as they could not see Jesus for who he really was.

Seminole. the world can only see it's own.

Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.   (Mat 13:13)

To the world, Ray is like any other......in the very same was as Christ himself during his life here on Earth.

Jhn 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.  

The world is simply not equipped to "see" or understand spiritual matters.

However, all is not lost. Because Christ has promised the Spirit of Truth to some.

Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.  

All is working according to God's plan; he is giving eyes to see and hearts to understand accordingly.

Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
 
Jhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

Clearly it is not up to man to even have an opinion regarding spiritual teachings. They neither see the Spirit of Truth and nor can that understand. To such, Ray IS like anyother, as are all of God's spiritual children.

1Jo 3:13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.    

Hate is a very strong word; however, it does encompass many of the following attributes:
  • scorn
  • antipathy
  • aversion
  • belligerent

And surely judging by the many emails Ray recieves daily, many in this world feel this way. We need not be suprised, rather we should rejoice because we can know from this that Rays Scriptual teachings is Scriptual Truth.

Jhn 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before [it hated] you. 

With love in Christ,
Darren
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Questions and Truth
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2007, 02:33:53 PM »


Gee Darren I wasn't frustrated and not a bit surprised either! ;D :D

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: Questions and Truth
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2007, 02:40:17 PM »

Yeah.....me either   ;D

Perhaps "amusement" would have been more appropriate?

Love to you in Christ,
Darren
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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: Questions and Truth
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2007, 03:06:58 PM »

Too true, I should not have spoke in regard to your feelings.  ::)

I said amusement in retrospect of the way I find myself feeling more and more these days. For once I would feel hurt, indignant, anger, frustration because of what someone said, implied or did. Even still, I feel my carnal self begin to react in this way; yet, as I ask God to forgive me and to give me strength to overcome such emotions, my whole being begins to smile inside and out; because everything is working to God's will, everything for OUR GOOD. I know in my heart and soul that GOD has given me the means to suppress the desires of the carnal mind and I cannot help by smile at my carnal ignorance; it is a great defuser and the carnal emotions simply vanish.

I can see, hear God teaching me in everything; that there is no event in this life that is not for my ultimate good. This is comforting and worth smiling about. Truthfully, it puts everything into perspective. :)

Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God [be] for us, who [can be] against us? 

Does this make sense?  :)

Love in Christ,
Darren
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Questions and Truth
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2007, 03:18:15 PM »

Here is the post I deleted ahead of your response Darren.  I deleted it because I did not want to make you look wrong and I see you have understood it is not so appropriate to assume we can read one anothers feelings as we communicate on the Forum. So here, for the benefit of the Forum is the post you have responded to.

Wrong again.  :D

It is painful to be on any learning curve for anyone. I simply pointed out what I think not in trivialising or making fun or jest of anyone. You would understand this I am certain.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: Questions and Truth
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2007, 03:43:23 PM »

Arcturus,

All is wonderful and NO ill-feelings  :D :D :D

When Christ and the love for him comes first, the REAL life is grand!

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 

Thank you my sister,

Darren
« Last Edit: May 13, 2007, 03:48:53 PM by YellowStone »
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Questions and Truth
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2007, 04:00:14 PM »

Great! 8) :D
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Questions and Truth
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2007, 10:09:52 AM »

Uh.....actually my reaction wasn't to a question per se, and in a different thread, but the comments struck me pretty hard, but yeah no more thoughts about it indeed. I think though, and this is for real, I think we need to give people a fair chance and not assume that they are attacking or something. I know what you're saying indeed!

And Joe, I totally hear ya man! That was very well said.

Matt

Thank you Matt!

His Peace to you Brother,

Joe
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seminole

  • Guest
Re: Questions and Truth
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2007, 12:35:57 PM »

Apologies to anyone for any offense caused by saying Ray is just a man like any other human being. I never met the man just read what was here.
Seminole
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mari_et_pere

  • Guest
Re: Questions and Truth
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2007, 12:41:04 PM »

Quote
just a man like any other human being. I never met the man just read what was here.

I'm pretty sure that Ray would be the first to tell you that he's just a man like any other man. He just has more things to teach than others do. (Thank God for that!)

Matt
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