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Author Topic: Lazarus  (Read 2880 times)

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Craig

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Lazarus
« on: May 13, 2007, 08:51:07 PM »

        I read your article on Lazarus and the Rich Man and am completely amazed at how one person can understand the fact that this IS a parable, yet completely miss the point of the parable. The parable is an anthropomorphism to give us an idea of what death means. It is proof positive that the dead are in a state of consciousness at this point in time. When you allegorize the Bible you miss the point, just as you do when you take verses and passages out of context. 

        Steve

         

        Dear Steve:

        In other words you believe that it IS a parable which IS LITERAL? Is that somehing like square circles?

        God be with you,

        Ray


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Craig

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Re: Lazarus
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2007, 08:52:56 PM »

Dear Ray,

Donít be ridiculous. As I stated, it is an anthropomorphism, which is a story told in terms so humans can understand it. Obviously there is not a literal pool for Lazarus to dip his finger into and they were not standing across a divide looking at each other. This is not a corporeal place because they did not have corporeal bodies. The parable DOES illustrate the fact that people are conscious after they die and that those who die apart from Christ are in torment. Jesus told the thief that he would be with Him in paradise on that day. Christ did mean that literally.

In Christ,

Steve

 
Dear Steve:
Don't be ridiculous!  You are not one for actually believing what the Scriptures teach, are you?  Jesus said that His words "are SPIRIT," but you say that this parable "illustrates the fact that people are conscious after they die."  Oh really?  And by whose authority do you conclude that?
Their bodies are not literal, the water is not literal, the gulf is not literal, but that there is consciousness in UNconscious DEATH, well that IS LITERAL. Give me a break.
 
You also unscripturally suggest that this is "a story told in terms so humans can UNDERSTAND it."  You are a "human," and YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND IT!!
 
Jesus told His disciples when asked why He taught in "parables" (like the Lazarus parable) that the reason was so that THEY WOULD NOT UNDERSTAND.  Not even the disciples and apostles understood His parables. Here is Point #2 from my Twelve Point paper on understanding God's Word:
 
 

TRUTH NUMBER 2

    [A] "All these things spoke Jesus unto the multitude in PARABLES; and without a parable spoke He not unto them" (Matt. 13:34).

    "But without a PARABLE spoke He not unto themÖ" (Mark 4:34).

    [C] "This PARABLE spoke Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which He spoke unto them" (John 10:6).

Jesus taught in parables only, and no one understood His parables, hence Jesus taught in a way that He knew no one would understand His message. This truth of Scripture is so revolutionary to the minds of most Christians that many will think it blasphemy, and yet the Scriptures abound with statements that fully support it.

I heard Matt Croach (elder son of TBN President, Paul Croach) state on international television that Jesus spoke in parables to make the meaning of His teachings simple and clear and understandable to the simple farmers and uneducated people of Judea. My Wycliffe Bible Dictionary has a similar explanation: "Purpose of parables. The obvious purpose of Jesusí use of parables was to make spiritual truth clear and compelling." What a crock.

Is anyone interested in what Jesus Himself had to say about His use of Parables? Good. Here it is:

    "And the disciples came, and said unto Him, Why do you speak unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but unto them it is not given" (Matt. 13:10-11).

Now then, does anyone see any similarity between "to make spiritual truth clear and compelling," and "Öbut unto them it is not given?" No? Neither do I. What I see is a diametric opposite. What I see is a flat out contradiction between Christian teachers and the Word of God.

"Jesus spoke in parables to make His quaint little stories clear and understandable to the uneducated farmers of Judea," my foot: "and when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard His parables, they perceived that He spoke of them" (Matt. 21:45). The Chief Priests and Pharisees were generally highly educated people. But even they didnít know what Jesusí parables really meant, but they on one occasion at least, "perceived" that Jesus was speaking about them.

So surely, if Jesusí parables were "clear and compelling" to the uneducated farmers of Judea, then they would be even more so to His own disciples, not?

    "Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and His disciples came unto Him, saying, Declare [expound, define, explain] unto us the parable of the tares of the field" (Matt. 13:36).

Even Jesusí Own disciples had to have these parables explained to them. And just how did Jesus "declare" these parables to His Own disciples? You wouldnít believe me if I told you. You wouldnít believe me if I showed you. Okay, hereís how Jesus explained His parable. He explained His parable to His disciples by telling them ANOTHER PARABLE! I told you that you wouldnít believe me. More on this later.

This is another one of those marvelous spiritual truths of Scripture, which you will never hear explained in the Church. Just what do they teach all these future clergymen in seminary? The fact is, Jesus did not want the people to understand Him and Jesus did not want them to repent and Jesus did not want to spiritually heal or save them. He clearly said so. But why? Because God has a plan that involves calling MANY, but choosing out only a FEW.

    "For whosoever has, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever has not, from him shall be taken away even that he has" (Matt. 13:12).

Does anyone understand what Jesus just said here? Probably not too many, for this too, is a parable explaining a parableóand no one understood either. I wish they would let me teach a few classes at seminary.

    "Therefore speak I to them in parables, because they seeing, see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of IsaiahÖ for this peopleís heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should BE CONVERTED, AND I SHOULD HEAL [SAVE] THEM" (Verses 13-15).

Wow! Jesus didnít want them to understand and He didnít want to convert them and He didnít want to save them. How could Isaiahís prophecy be true if Jesus were to contradict it by teaching them plainly so that they could understand and repent? Now, thatís what Jesus said, and thatís what Isaiah said, but thereís a problem:

    "But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah said, Lord, who has believed our report?" (Rom. 10:16).

Yes, who? Have you believed this report I have just given you? It is almost frightening how few truly believe Godís Scriptural reports. Hence, precious few believe and understand the Scriptures, and fewer yet, obey them.

There is good news, however, concerning the Parables, which virtually no one understands, and it is this:

    "And when He was alone, they that were about Him with the twelve asked of Him the parable. And He said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God, but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables." (Mark 4:10-11).

I have never met a Christian in my life that believes this verse. Not one. They all have told me that Jesus spoke many times, in fact most of the time, in plain language to the multitudes and the people, and not in parables only.

Hey, Iím glad that it is they who are contradicting Jesus and not I. Add to this denial the heresy that anyone can at any time, accept Jesus and believe, and then be saved. Jesus says they canít; the Church says regardless of what Jesus says, they can. Who ya gonna believe?

Continuing:

    "That seeing they may see, and not perceive: and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted and their sins should be forgiven them. And He said unto them. Know ye not this parable? And how then will you know all parables?" (Verse 12-13).

Say, did you get that? If you would know but one parable, you would know all parables! This is because all parables are speaking of the same subject, just presented from different perspectives. Wouldnít you just love to know just one parable so that you could know all parables?

What is so utterly amazing is that not only does the Church not understand all of the parables of Jesus, but, they do not even understand the parables which Jesus explained. I assure you that I am as serious as I could ever be when I say that. In a future paper I will explain what all the parables mean. But for now, just understand, that Jesusí entire ministry was preached in such a way that no one would understand Him, except to those very few to whom it was later (much laterósee Truth Number 3) given to understand. Pray that God will grant you spiritual understanding of His parables, or you too, will "Öunderstand not."

God be with you,

Ray
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Craig

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Re: Lazarus
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2007, 08:55:43 PM »

You clearly donít even understand what a parable is. It is a story to illustrate heavenly truth. You take parts of verses out of context to try to make you case. CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT !!!!

 

Dear Steve:

"GOD IS LOVE" (I John 4:08). Yes, but only in CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT.  Take God "OUT OF THE CONTEXT" of I John 4:8, and He is no longer love.  And if you don't believe me, just ask Steve ...... or one of the other hundreds of thousands of theologians who despise the word of God and think that they can "context" the truths of God right down the drain.

For it is written in the book of the Psalms, "LET HIS HABITATION BE DESOLATE, AND LET NO MAN DWELL THEREIN, AND HIS BISHOPRICK LET ANOTHER TAKE."

Oh really?  That's "context, context, context," is it?  Find that or almost ANY of the prophecies regarding the Messiah "in context"!  What did the Apostles know about the Scriptures that neither you nor the rest of Christian theologians have even a clue about?

God be with you,

Ray

PS   You need not answer. I am not interested in your unscriptural theories. I don't hate you for them, but I'll have nothing to do with them, so this conversation is over.

PPS  I forgot more about what "parables" are than you even know about parables. Trust me, I do. All the parables are but ONE PARABLE.  Know what it is?  No, I don't think you do.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2007, 10:50:17 PM by Kat »
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