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Trinity question .
mrsnacks:
So am I to understand that the church has the trinity wrong in one aspect.The rest we are in agreement ? And that is the Holy Spirit isn't the third person of the Godhead but is just the Spirit of God. So it is not three persons making up one God.
So instead of three being one God - it is two - God the Father and His Son Jesus ? Thanks.
skydreamers:
1 Corinthians 8:6
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
As I understand it, there is only one God (the Father) who has existed eternally. Jesus came out of the Father, and is like God, and called God, because God the Father gave to Jesus the attributes of being like God.
So Jesus is the son of God, but I don't think he existed eternally with God like the church teaches. In other words, Jesus had a beginning, but God the Father did not.
Peace,
Diana
Kat:
Hi mrsnacks,
This is a little long, but it covers your question really well.
http://bible-truths.com/email17.htm#trinity -----------------------
[Ray Replies]
Dear Layne:
Thank you for your comments. I too do not claim to understand all mysteries.
However, I try to stay in the parameter of what the Scriptures reveal. The Scriptures do NOT reveal that the Holy Spirit OF God is really the Holy Spirit GOD. It is ludicrous to say that the spirit of God is a third part of a triune God when we are plainly told that Jesus Christ was "CONCEIVED by the Holy Spirit" but after Birth is called "The Son of the Father" rather than the "Son of the Holy Spirit." Jesus Christ HAS A GOD (God the Father). God the Father DOES NOT HAVE A GOD!!! Jesus Christ is and always will be "SUBJECT" to God His Father (I Cor. 15:24-28). No Trinitarian has ever even attempted to reconcile such Scriptures with a trinity theory.
Jesus Christ and His Father ARE ONE! What does that mean? Has God not given us other examples of how two can be ONE? A husband and wife in union ARE ONE, yet they are individuals. The Son is the VISIBLE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD. That is Scriptural. God manifested HIMSELF to His Creation SONWISE or SONLY. The Son can be seen, the Father CANNOT BE SEEN. John tells us that we will see Jesus AS HE IS. I know of NO Scripture that tells us that we will ever see the Father (do you?). We pray TO the Father IN THE NAME OF Jesus Christ, through the spirit OF God--Both the Father and the Son have the SAME SPIRIT! That the KJV uses the personal pronoun "he" is hardly justification for making the Holy Spirit the third member of triune God.
The relationship between the Son and the Father are mentioned over and over and over again in the Scriptures. NOT ONCE do the Scriptures speak of a relationship between the Son and the Father and The Holy Spirit.
I have little interest in the trinity theory. I merely wrote a paper on it because people often ask. The one negative I do see in the theory, however, is that a trinity is in effect a "closed Godhead." Yet, the Scriptures plainly tell us that WE TOO CAN BECOME MEMBERS OF THE VERY FAMILY (not trinity) OF GOD. If we could become members of the 'trinity' then by the very nature of words and their meanings, the trinity WOULD CEASE TO EXIST! Think about it.
We too, mankind, also, like God, have a spirit. Our spirit, however, is NOT A SECOND PERSON! If I am with you 'in spirit' then I AM WITH YOU. My spirit is NOT SOME ELSE! Nor is it an ADDITION to me. Without MY spirit I would not exist. Without GOD'S spirit, GOD WOULD CEASE TO EXIST--GOD IS SPIRIT!!! God communicates and operates throughout the whole universe by HIS spirit. We TOO partake of this same spirit, but not through a third person of a trinity.
Jesus Christ told His disciples before His departure:
"Now, whenever the consoler [Gk: 'parakletos '= BESIDE - CALLer] which I shall be sending you [notice that Christ is the Sender, but FROM the Father], that will be testifying concerning Me" (John 15:26).
Now notice this:
"But I am telling you the truth. It is expedient for you that I may be coming away, for if I should not be coming away, THE CONSOLER WILL NOT BE COMING TO YOU." (John 16:7).
Why? If the Holy Spirit as a third person of a triune trinity is what God's spirit really is, then WHY would Jesus have to depart before IT could come if IT is a separate individual FORM Jesus?
What or Who is this "comforter?" Is it the third personality of a triune God? Let's read it:
"Yet whenever that may be coming--the spirit OF truth [Christ is TRUTH. He said "I am THE TRUTH"]..." (John 16:13).
"That will be glorifying Me, seeing that OF MINE will it be getting, and informing you. All, whatever the Father has, is Mine. THEREFORE I said to you that OF MINE is it getting, and will be informing you" (John 16:14-15).
Whatever is coming to comfort His Apostles after He is gone is something that is OF CHRIST that the Father GAVE TO HIM. Did the Father give to Christ the third person of the trinity???
Now John 16:27-28 from the Concordant Literal New Testament:
"...seeing that you are fond of Me, and have believed that I CAME OUT FROM GOD [out from beside God]. I CAME OUT FROM the Father and have come into the world. Again, I am LEAVING THE WORLD and am going TO THE FATHER."
After Pentecost the apostles never saw Jesus again the THE FLESH. And therefore Paul plainly informs us that:
"Yet even if we have known Christ ACCORDING TO FLESH, nevertheless now we KNOW HIM SO NO LONGER. So that, if anyone is IN CHRIST, there is a new creation..." (II Cor. 5:16-17).
Back to John:
"Remain IN ME. I also AM IN YOU...He who is remaining IN ME, and I IN HIM..." (John 15:4-5).
We are IN Christ and Christ is IN us. Next:
"If anyone should be loving Me, he will be keeping My word, and My Father will be loving him, and WE SHALL BE COMING TO HIM AND MAKING AN ABODE WITH HIM" (John 14:23).
And the Father ALSO will make His abode WITH US. How is this done? By the third person of the trinity? No. Christ said HE would be in us. And Christ said the Father would be also. But specifically HOW? And why must Jesus go away first?
Remember that Paul said we no longer know Christ according to the flesh. And Christ never appeared to the Apostles after Pentecost IN THE FLESH. Christ went back to the Father, but He said He would not leave us comfortless, but that He would send a comforter. He also said that it would be the "spirit of truth" and that it came TO Christ from the Father and now it IS CHRIST'S to do as He will with it.
Then who or what is this comforter, this 'parakletos'? God's Word tells us. John is the only writer who uses this word 'parakletos.' So where else does he use it? I John 2:1:
"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate [Greek: PARAKLETOS!!!] with the Father, JESUS CHRIST the Righteous" (I John 2:1)!!!
There it is! Jesus Christ IS THE COMFORTER. Jesus Christ IS THE PARAKLETOS!
When we receive the Comforter it is CHRIST, IN SPIRIT [no longer according to the flesh]! IT IS CHRIST THAT COMFORTERS US THROUGH HIS SPIRIT WHICH JOHN PLAINLY TELLS US HE RECEIVED FROM HIS GOD AND FATHER! It is THEIR [the Son's and the Father's] SPIRIT that comes in us! No trinity here! No trinity anywhere!
"Hereby know ye the SPIRIT OF GOD: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is COME IN THE FLESH is of God" (I John 4:2).
"Hereby know we that WE DWELL IN HIM, and HE IS US, because He hath given us OF [genitive--OF] His spirit" (Verse 13).
It is JESUS CHRIST Who comes IN OUR FLESH. To deny that that it is JESUS CHRIST Who comes in our flesh is the spirit of ANTICHRIST.
CHRIST is our comforter. CHRIST leads us into all Truth. It is CHRIST in us the hope of glory. CHRIST is the parakletos. And this is all accomplished by the spirit OF God which the Father gave also to Christ and so we have the spirit of both the Son and the Father making its home IN US, not a third person of a fabled trinity!
OF COURSE Jesus Christ is God. He is the VERY IMAGE, THE EXPRESS IMAGE, OF THE INVISIBLE GOD HIMSELF--and that makes Christ GOD. And Jesus and His Father ARE ONE and they operate through ONE SPIRIT--THEIR spirit, not some OTHER person of a trinity.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2717.0.html -------
Dearr Robbins:
I John 5:7-8 should read: "For there are three that bear record, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." The words "...in heaven the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And thee are three that bear witness in earth..." are not Scriptures and are found in NO Greek Manuscripts or even the early Latin Fathers writings and translations. These spurious words appear in no reputable manuscript, and no manuscript period, before the FIFTEEN CENTURY! No Biblical Scholar thinks those words are part of any original manuscripts or Scriptures. They are as spurious as the pagan trinity doctrine.
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mercy, peace, and love
Kat
berniekruger:
--- Quote ---So Jesus is the son of God, but I don't think he existed eternally with God like the church teaches
--- End quote ---
May I draw your attention to the following?
John 1
The Word Became Flesh
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
and
Passage John 17:5:
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
and
Revelation 19:13:
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
See also Matt 22:41-45
All NIV translation
I personally think Jesus existed with God for all time, to me whether God, Jesus and Holy Spirit = 1 persona or are individual persona is unimportant. Jesus is the appropriation for our sin, none other.
Likewise the baptism in water 1 immersion vs 3 immersions, irrelevant! Sprinkling however ???
Luv to all
YellowStone:
Hi All,
Just a short note that might add some light to the subject.
There is one God and of course one Jesus Christ. Christ came out of the Father, but is yet internal to the Father; Christ is in no way external to God. There are not "1" + "1" equalling two external , eternal, separate Gods. :)
So even the dual God concept is flawed, because Christ is internal to the Father. Kind of like placing a balloon inside another and blowing them up. Now let's imagine for a minute that we are inside the "two" balloons. We can only see and touch the inner balloon, the outer balloon would be invisible to us for the two balloons are so close to each other that for all sense and purposes, there is only one balloon.
Both balloons in this instance are identical, yet one is visible to us, while the other is not. One is subject to the other. (the outer)
I fully realize that this might be a poor analogy but I in my mind it fits the concept of God and Christ pretty well.
Moderators, if this is plainly against what Ray teachers, please delete it.
Comments welcome,
Love in Christ,
Darren
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