Free Speech?

[josh]

A few weeks ago, I met a friend of mine at "The Red Barn," one of the local BBQ restaurants, for a quick bite to eat and to catch up on what was going on in his life. We've been friends since I was 16 and he was 14... we attended "Royal Rangers" together growing up...

Those of you who have any involvement with the Assemblies of God, you will know what I'm talking about, but for those of you who don't... "Royal Rangers" is like the Boy Scouts, except with bible devotionals around the camp fire, rather then ghost stories... Ok, well we told ghost stories after the bible devotionals were over.

We also grew up in the same youth group... and even though we had vastly different backgrounds (I grew up in the church ALL of my life... and He was well into his teens before he had any exposure to the main stream church)... we both felt a calling into full time ministry around the same time in our lives.

When I was 20, I left to attend Southeastern... an Assemblies of God University, in Central Florida. My buddy stayed here and worked as an intern at our local church... several years have passed now and we both have experienced a lot of changes in our ideologies of what following/serving Christ is all about.

Almost a 2 years ago now, I left the church that had hired me only 6 months earlier because I felt deep down that we were not teaching, nor living the truth of the scriptures. Every part of the church felt wrong to me, every part of my so-called "salvation" felt wrong, felt counterfeit to me...

Looking back at this point in my life... I identify so strongly with the rich young ruler who asked Christ "What can I do to inherit eternal life?"

Luke 18:18-23
18 Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
19 So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. 20 You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery,' 'Do not murder,' 'Do not steal,' 'Do not bear false witness,' 'Honor your father and your mother.'"[a]
21 And he said, "All these things I have kept from my youth."
22 So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
23 But when he heard this, he became very sorrowful, for he was very rich.

For me... I had kept all of the commandments from my youth (at least the outward ones)... but I was rich... my religion had given me all that I thought I needed... friends and popularity, the respect of my elders, activities to do so that I didn't get bored, and a measuring rod so that I could see how "righteous" I was compared to the rest of humanity.

But only by the grace of God did I come to understand that all that I possessed, all of my riches of religion had become an idol and a weight that was actually restraining me from knowing the life that God has desired for me.

So, I sold it all... and am still daily, selling the spoils of my religion and trying my best to follow Him.

But my friend, at times... I honestly believe he thinks that I am a fool for believing that God's desire is to actually bring all of humanity into His family... as of a few months ago, he even received his formal credentials from the Assemblies of God and is now working on his ordination as a AG preacher and these titles won't allow him to explore the idea of a God who exists outside of the restraints of their 16 fundamental beliefs.

Instead of God who is beyond our understanding, and whose ways are higher then our ways, He is neatly packaged into an eight page pamphlet. So, as I am sure that you can imagine... and have probably had similar experiences with your friends... our conversations about God rarely end in agreement...

A few weeks ago, as I mentioned earlier... we had sat down for lunch and were catching up on what was going on in each others lives.  While he was telling me about all of the growth the church was experiencing after hiring a new pastor, he began to tell me about a petition the church is involved in against an "anti-hate speech" law that is being passed that would restrict pastors from saying that "the act of homosexuality is a sin" and that "homosexuals will be punished in hell."

He then said something that actually made sense to me... He said he was recently reading a book by a popular Christian writer who has made the statement that Christians have become so good at pointing out darkness, that they have forgotten how to simply shine light.

Personally, it doesn't matter to me if congress says that I can't tell another person that something they are doing is "sin"... and I certainly wouldn't tell anyone that God would damn them to a fabled hell hole... I mean honestly, has anyone ever really changed their mind about a particular habitual action that they were involved in just because someone told them that they believed that action to be wrong?

Have you ever walked up to a person who is smoking and mentioned to them that "those things will kill you?" Sure, lot's of people say stuff just like that... but have you ever seen that smoker throw the cigarette down with a surprised look and say "Oh, geez... thanks for telling me... I didn't know that!"

Well, neither have I... and I most certainly have never walked up to someone who was involved in a certain action and told them that what they are doing is "sin" and received a positive response.

What's so amazing about following Christ is that when you actually live out the message of God's loving chastisement of all humanity, people (including Christians) will hate you without you ever telling them that what they are doing, preaching or the way that they are living is wrong.

Galations 5:13-15
13 For you have been called to live in freedom, my brothers and sisters. But don't use your freedom to satisfy your sinful nature. Instead, use your freedom to serve one another in love.
14 For the whole law can be summed up in this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
15 But if you are always biting and devouring one another, watch out! Beware of destroying one another.

1 John 1:5-10
5 This is the message we heard from Jesus[c] and now declare to you: God is light, and there is no darkness in him at all.
6 So we are lying if we say we have fellowship with God but go on living in spiritual darkness; we are not practicing the truth.
7 But if we are living in the light, as God is in the light, then we have fellowship with each other, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth. 
9 But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we are calling God a liar and showing that his word has no place in our hearts.

Sorry for rambling... it's been awhile.

Shine Light My Friends. God's Peace.
Josh

[YellowStone]

Awesome Post Josh.......

It's not the truth that is complicated, but the world. Who can make sense of it?

I liked how you tied in religion as the "prized possession," I hadn't looked at it like that before. Some people would rather die than change a belief. Is that insurmountable faith or total insecurity, hanging on to the death in a vice grip.

I am a software developer / project manager and the first thing I ever learned was that, If I couldn't break what I was designing or working on, no one could and didn't I try.    Applications have to stand up to anything and everything, users will not accept a clause of "this progam will only perform under the following conditions!" Yep, all we get is "BUT, I need...." 

However, churches will not tolerate any scrutiny. Why? Surely truth is truth is truth from any angle or direction. Well of course, if it is indeed truth. But they peddle not the truth but lies and they know full well that even a liar can trap a liar. So a mandate of "No questions!!" is given and enforced to the letter. Simpy amazing.

Great Scriptures,

Your brother in Christ,
Darren

[nmendes]

Hi Josh! I liked your post. It was very touching.

One thing I realized as God has revealed His truth to me (one morsel at a time) is how much brainwashing is going on in the church.

Nicole

[Kat]

Hi Josh,

Good to here from you.

The church is doing things their way, and their foundation is not Christ, so what they are building on it can not stand.  I have no need for their fellowship and am happy just to have the brothers and sisters on the forum 

2Co 6:13  I speak now as though you were my children: show us the same feelings that we have for you. Open your hearts wide!
v. 14  Do not try to work together as equals with unbelievers, for it cannot be done. How can right and wrong be partners? How can light and darkness live together?
v. 15  How can Christ and the Devil agree? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?
v. 16  How can God's temple come to terms with pagan idols? For we are the temple of the living God! As God Himself has said, "I will make My home with My people and live among them; I will be their God, and they shall be My people."
v. 17  And so the Lord says, "You must leave them and separate yourselves from them. Have nothing to do with what is unclean, and I will accept you.
v. 18  I will be your father, and you shall be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty." (GNB)

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[gmik]

Good post Josh.  I'm like you Kat, I don't look for fellowship anymore.  That was my first fear when coming to BT--Oh, whatever shall I do-no church, no pot lucks, no home bible studies....etc etc

The Lord is good and I don't miss it at all.  I love the forum and I can talk to my hubby and son.  I basically do not discuss my private life w/ anyone else.  Now, I am looking forward to fellowshipping at the conference, but no way would i go if thats all there was!  I am going to meet Ray and get taught!  Amen!

I just got an e mail from "friends" back at the church I left.  Went like....haven't seen you in ages, lets do dinner after church.....I haven't responded yet.

[mari_et_pere]

I just got an e mail from "friends" back at the church I left.  Went like....haven't seen you in ages, lets do dinner after church.....I haven't responded yet.

My dear wife doesn't share my beliefs so I know how might feel about your friends being lost in Babylon. I have to admit that I don't speak of my beliefs because she's one of those who get offended when you try to sway her. I'm not sure why. You know that type? They're okay for a few minutes but after a few minutes the discussion turns into a fight. Maybe I tried to hard, or other circumstances of her day had her edgy already, I'm not sure.
Do your friends know exactly how you believe? It's possible that in telling them your beliefs, you could become the means that God uses to open their spiritual eyes. It's just a thought......

Matt

[dogcombat]

One thing of note about the Rich young ruler is that Jesus said sell what he had, give it to the poor (to have a treasure in heaven), then come, take up your cross  and follow me.  That said, Josh's points about religious spoils are definitely worth heeding.  Josh, you've seen how "you learned the way of the heathen" which is a no-no with God.  And since then, He's been FREEING you one step at a time when you've died to self, taken up your cross, and follow HIM at the spirit's leading.

Something we're constantly reminded of.
Ches.

[skydreamers]

Josh, thanks for a great post!

Have you ever walked up to a person who is smoking and mentioned to them that "those things will kill you?" Sure, lot's of people say stuff just like that... but have you ever seen that smoker throw the cigarette down with a surprised look and say "Oh, geez... thanks for telling me... I didn't know that!"

Well, neither have I... and I most certainly have never walked up to someone who was involved in a certain action and told them that what they are doing is "sin" and received a positive response.

That is a great point.  I'm sure most of has have been on the receiving end of this as well.  Knowing you are doing something wrong, yet lacking the power to change it is a devastating feeling.  And if we're still in the stubborn state, we certainly don't want to hear someone else pointing out our faults!  But then again, God may well be using those situations to bring us to our knees, to be disgusted by our own behaviour, and to hate our sin enough so that we can run from it. 

Peace,
Diana

[chav]

Hi Josh
Great post, it's always interesting to see other peoples journeys in their walk with God.
Unfortunately so many of those who think they can see are blind themselves and are in as much darkness as those who they think need illumination. (John 9)
Although free speech is highly cherished here in the West I wonder some times, whether it is just another man made idol of the heart a bit like like man's so called 'free will' ? However I wouldn't want to live in a society like North Korea or Iran  either ,where  just saying the wrong thing could get you killed.
cheers
Dave UK

[gmik]

I just got an e mail from "friends" back at the church I left.  Went like....haven't seen you in ages, lets do dinner after church.....I haven't responded yet.

Well, Matt, I did e mail back thanks etc, but we have stopped going to church there.  Then I said I believed in the Salvation of All according to 1Tim 2:3-4.  But gee if ya still wanna get together we'd be happy to. -- Haven't gotten a response back.

Even if we did have dinner, it would be hard to NOT talk about any of this, and I think they would want to know why we left w/o them feeling like we were prosyltyzing (sp).

[seminole]

Just in response to the name of this thread, I don't think free speech really exists. It is dependant on whatever group you find yourself in at the time. Not to knock the rules but the rules here do limit what is or can be said. When I worked in the mill it was forbidden to speak of the union in any kind of positive way because the company didn't want to be unionized. It would have been better for us employees but more costly to the owners. People who did speak of wanting the union were fired. Free speech doesn't exist. It depend on what you say and where you are. If I said something like," Ray is blind, hell is real, the church has all the answers, and so on, I would get kicked out just like I would have been fired for speaking favorably about a union.
Nole

[mari_et_pere]

Nole,
I agree with ya, however think about this: If I went to a "celebate teens" forum and posted porn, or a "new parents" forum and posted pics of dead babies, I probably wouldn't be very appreciated.

On the same token, if I came here spreading heresies, I wouldn't be very welcome. Now I could come here and ASK, "Is hell real?" Or "What's really wrong with church?" Nothing wrong there. That's different than just blatantly spreading crap. There's trouble-making statements, then there's honest questions. There's also the option of saying the appropriate thing in the appropriate place.

I do agree though that we don't really have free speech. We have LIMITED FREE SPEECH. 

Practicing my right of almost free speech,

Matt

[hillsbororiver]

I would also not recommend shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre! 

A couple quotes on free speech;

"The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously."
Hubert Horatio HUMPHREY
U.S. Vice President 1965–69 (1911–78)

"I have always been among those who believed that the greatest freedom of speech was the greatest safety, because if a man is a fool the best thing to do is to encourage him to advertise the fact by speaking."
Woodrow WILSON
28th President of the United States (1856-1924)

And some verses on how we should always exercise our speech and words with others;

Pro 10:19  In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise.

Pro 17:28  Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

Pro 23:9  Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.

Pro 26:21  As coals are to burning coals, and wood to fire; so is a contentious man to kindle strife.

Pro 29:20  Seest thou a man that is hasty in his words? there is more hope of a fool than of him.

Ecc 10:12  The words of a wise man's mouth are gracious; but the lips of a fool will swallow up himself.

Is anything at all really "free?" Are there not causes and consequences for every thought we think, words we speak & actions we have taken?

Peace,

Joe

[mari_et_pere]

Joe, I'm a pretty quiet dude, to the point that some people probably think I'm a bit weird, so Pro 17:28 is my verse!  Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding. I love it LOL.

quietly Wise and Understanding  ,

Matt

[skydreamers]

We have LIMITED FREE SPEECH.

Hey Matt, is that something like "limited free will"

Just kidding of course,

Peace,
Diana

[hillsbororiver]

Joe, I'm a pretty quiet dude, to the point that some people probably think I'm a bit weird, so Pro 17:28 is my verse!  Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding. I love it LOL.

quietly Wise and Understanding  ,

Matt

Hi Matt,

LOL 

I really wish I had learned that technique as a young man! As a matter of fact I can honestly say I still haven't got it down. 

His Peace to you,

Joe

[seminole]

I agree completely with Matt. I think that holds true in any situation we are in. I also agree that it serves people better to keep quiet till they think it through!Freedom is always limited in one way or another and often for our safety and well-being. I may think I can take a curve at 90 m.p.h. when I clearly see a posting of 40m.p.h. I was always one of those kids who hated to be told what to do. My Mom figured me out enough to tell me the opposite of what she wanted me to do as the way to get what she really wanted.
Nole

[skydreamers]

My Mom figured me out enough to tell me the opposite of what she wanted me to do as the way to get what she really wanted.

Hey Nole, maybe I should try this with my five year old?! lol   (Some days I'll try anything...!)

Peace,
Diana

[mari_et_pere]

LOL don't bother. Today's generation's kids are unnafected by reverse psychology. If I tell my 4 year old boy the opposite of what I want, he just laughs at me for being "silly" becase he already knows what I'm trying to do. God help me LOL!! 

Still trying to figure it out, 

Matt

[seminole]

Before my Mom figured me out I gained a lot of scars for doing things she told me not to. We peeled the top off a Camaro like peeling a banana. Drove it under an 18 wheeler. How we survived who knows?
Nole