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'Brother' in scripture
YellowStone:
Rocky,
You have asked a very soulful question:
I ask this sincerely, as I am troubled by the blanket "everyone in the church" is a wolf, poison, babylon, and not our brother.
To blanket is to act in ignorance, for who is anyone to read the mind of God. :)
Let me ask a question to any who would defend this "blanket" statement.
Would any here not reach out with love and hope to any such people if they came here with a humble heart and an attentive ear? Of course not. :)
It is not the church that is the problem, it is the carnal desires of man himself, who wants nothing more than to write and guarantee his own salvaion. The church is but a vehicle, and has been for a very long time.
It matters not where they come from; rather, it is where they are now and where they want to be.
Great question and thanks for posting it. :)
Love to you my brother,
Darren
Joey Porter:
--- Quote from: Kat on May 21, 2007, 12:58:21 PM ---
Hi Matt,
Though the word brother can be apply to everybody in one way are another. When the apostles use the word 'brother' it invariably means a fellow believer. In just a few verse 'brother' is referring to as humanity.
So I think that it is significant that when when the scripture say 'brother'(in the NT), it is applied to the believers and not the world.
Do we consider the church our 'brothers'? I don't think so. We can see where Paul said to not associate with someone even if they are among the believers, and shows by actions not to be of like mind. The church is certainly not of like mind.
1Co 5:9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
v. 10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
v. 11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
Darren, I too only use the term brother and sister with someone whom I feel a spiritual connection. And I do find that through this forum :)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
Actually, I would have to say the church, or those in Babylon, are our brothers. Not because we are in agreement with them, but just because they are in the house of God.
Remember, in the house of God there are vessels for honor and vessels for destruction. So even the carnal or "called" brothers, the vessels of destruction (assuming we consider ourselves vessels of honor) are still our brothers.
Think back to the story of Joseph. Joseph's brothers represent those who will "cast the 'chosen' out of the synagogues." They represent the "called." But Joseph, representing the chosen, was kind to them and forgave them and always considered them his brothers. That is the attitude that we are to have. And I believe in the future age, they will fall down at our feet as we are in a position of authority over them, just as in the story of Joseph.
But Joseph understood God's sovereignty and the fact that the evil they carried out against him was all a part of God's plan for a greater purpose.
That's why I believe we would consider the church and all those in its denominations to be our ''brothers.''
I also want to agree with what was mentioned in an earlier post. I don't think we want to paint with too broad of a brush when we use the term "church." It's more of an individual thing, depending on each person's heart. I'm sure there are many humble honest seekers who are still in the "church" who have not been spiritually called out yet.
Deborah-Leigh:
From : "THE KISS OF DEATH" by Ray Smith
Judas was a wolf in sheep's clothing. The apostles saw a sheep—Jesus saw a wolf.
Here is what I think : A neighbour is someone who does a good turn for a person. Like a Moslem or a Samaratin picking up someone in the ditch and expecting no payback. There is no connection in spiritual terms. This Good Samaratin Agape love is how we are expected to treat others as we would have them treat us in "good" terms.
Who is my brother and who is my sister has a far deeper significance in the kindred spiritual sense. If an association reveals through dialogue there is common beliefs and mutual acceptance of truths then one can say you have discovered a brother or sister. This would be true in any religious or cultural sense. In Africa many communities in tribal traditionalism are bound together as family although there is no connection biologically.
In Christ, a brother or sister has to be of mutual belief and mutual acceptance of the truth. I see no sisters or brothers who are in Babylon. There are no ties to any systems of heresy and false teachings in Christ.
As I meet up with each others differences I have come to realise there are no brothers and sisters amongst our SELVES. There are far too many imperfections in the vessels. I recognise brotherhood and sisterhood only where there is Christ made visible in the vessel of honour that is accepting and following in Christs ways, mind and spirit.
For me there is only ONE Brother or Sister and THAT IS CHRIST in whomever is revealing HIM. My connection is to HIM. Paul showed in his writings that this was the intention and plan and purpose of Christ that we would eventually come to recognise HIM and that we might develop until we ALL attain oneness in the full and accurate knowledge of the SON OF GOD. Eph 4:13
As Ray says in his Love transcript : We can love our neighbor, with a agape love, we don't need to fellowship, hobnob with them or become part of what they are, in any way, shape or form. When God says, love your enemies. If it said you would have to phileo your enemies, then I would just have to take my 9 pages of notes here, tear them up, throw them away. Close the Bible and say, I have not a clue as to what this thing about love is, not a clue.
I think that is a very good way of saying that no one needs to feign affection! To feign affection is the wolf in sheep's cothing and double mindedness is not where the Word of God is leading. On the contrary, Woe to them that lead down feigned affections doubleminded dark alleys. ;D with expectations of entitlement that they should be treated with affection or kissed up too!
Sadrach Meshach and Abendigo did not bow and neither did Christ. That is what got Shadrach Meshach and Abendigo thrown into the furnace and lead Jesus to His death. I have to follow suit and I think letting go of the need for approval, agreement or being right is part of the process in active Agape love for Gods creation and Phileo love for His Son. The papers on LOVE and THE KISS OF DEATH by Ray, inspires comfort and confidence in this regard.
For me anyway! :D
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
Kat:
Hi rocky,
I think I understand your question;
--- Quote ---and a carnal Christian who is a believer in the resurrection and is a "brother in Christ"?
--- End quote ---
I will admit that what you call someone who is like minded can be different for different people. But what I am saying is those who are, now in the age, Christ' brother are those who have Christ in them.
There certainly are those new to the understanding of the truth that need time to grow in knowledge, they are babes, but no longer decieved, as those in mystery Babylon.
The blanket statement about the church in general, as not being brothers/elect/ saints, I believe is true. Now I will admit that there are indiviuals believers in the process of coming out of the church or who will be brought out, but as a whole I think they are lost in this age.
Rev 17:4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her sexual immorality.
v. 5 And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: "Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth's abominations."
v. 6 And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. When I saw her, I marveled greatly.
v. 13 These are of one mind and hand over their power and authority to the beast.
v. 14 They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful."
Here is a segment of Ray's no. 10 article 'The Synagogue of Saran.'
http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html --------------------------------
WHERE IS THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN?
The synagogue of Satan is located in the churches—in The Church!
"…you have tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and have found them liars" (Rev. 2:2).
Where did the Ephesians try those false, lying, apostles? In some pagan temple or church down the street, or across town, or in some foreign land? Or maybe in the pagan religion of the Roman occupation? No, in the Church. Jesus Christ says:
"Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write… thou have tried them which say they are apostles [in the church of Ephesus], and are not" (Rev. 2:1a & 2b).
Where did Jesus know these lying apostles? Why, in the Church, of course. Of what consequence would "lying apostles" of some pagan religion be to the churches of God in Asia?
And where did Jesus say the synagogue of Satan is located? Same place—in the Church:
"And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write… I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews [in the Smyrna church], and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan… And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write… I will make them of the synagogue of Satan [in the Philadelphia church], and are not but do lie…" (Rev. 2:8 & 9; 3:7 & 9).
------------------------------------------------------
Here is segments of Ray's no. 7 article 'THE SEVEN SYMBOLIC CHURCHES OF REVELATION.'
http://bible-truths.com/lake7.html ---------------------
COUNTING THE COST
Would you have taken up Christ’s invitation to become an apostle with Him? Oh really? And just what idol of your heart are you willing to give up? You say, "I am not rich, or I would give it up to be an apostle of Jesus Christ." Well then, I guess we can eliminate "wealth" as one of the idols of your heart. But what is still left in your heart that you idolize? I believe that I have the mind of Christ when I say that there are many readers of this paper on the lake of fire that have as their idol their own false religious doctrines. And they are not willing to give them up, not even for Christ. And, many will not even go away "sadly" after reading this paper because they are so spiritually blind that they do not recognize their idols as idols.
Many spiritually blind believers think that they truly are disciples of Christ, but they go out telling the world that Jesus Christ will not take away the sin (singular ‘SIN’—ALL SIN) of the world, as John the Baptist plainly said under inspiration of God, that He would (John 1:29). And that Jesus Christ is NOT the SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD, even though His Father plainly said that He is (I John 4:14). And that God will not have all mankind to be saved, though God inspired Paul to say that He WILL save all mankind (I Tim. 2:4, & 4:10). Are such deceivers worthy to be called disciples and apostles of our Lord? I speak as a fool!
IS THE NEW COVENANT THE OLD COVENANT IN YOU HEART?
Now we are coming down to it. The church today teaches that the NEW Covenant or testament is keeping the OLD Covenant better. That’s right. They say that the New Covenant is keeping the OLD Covenant in your heart. That is clearly NOT what the Scriptures say. The New Covenant is decidedly,
"NOT IN ACCORD with the [Old] covenant which I made with their fathers" (Heb. 8:9).
"In that He says, A NEW covenant, He has made the first OLD. Now that which decays and waxes OLD is ready to VANISH AWAY" (Heb. 8;12).
And many more such Scriptures.
Now we already have clearly seen that Paul kept this Old Covenant Law of Moses contained in Ten Commandments (Deut.4:13), and he kept it BLAMELESSLY! And so Paul may be the only person who has ever came close to keeping the law "blamelessly" or perfectly. Most of Christendom would love to say that they keep the law of Moses "blamelessly!" They would be sooooo proud.
THE CHIEF OF SINNERS WAS THE PERFECT LAW KEEPER
Now then for the shocker! In I Tim. 1:15 we read this:
"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation [in other words, what Paul is about to say is the absolute truth and worthy of considerable contemplation] that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, OF WHOM I AM CHIEF"!!
I covered these verses in great detail in a previous installment. Paul REALLY WAS the WORST, PREEMINENT SINNER THAT HAS EVER LIVED. Paul was truly "CHIEF of sinners"!! And we read where Paul was once "BLAMELESS in the keeping of the law of Moses."
Now then, WHEN was Paul (1) "BLAMELESS IN LAW KEEPING"? And WHEN was Paul (2) "the CHIEF OF SINNERS"? The answer: AT THE SAME TIME!!!
WHEN PAUL HAD REACHED THE ZENITH OF TOTAL OBEDIENCE AND ZEAL TO GOD UNDER THE OLD COVENANT LAW OF MOSES, IT CAUSED HIM AT THE SAME TIME TO BE THE WORLD’S WORST SINNER!!!
Paul was both THE MOST PERFECT LAW-KEEPER AND THE WORLD’S WORST SINNER, AT THE SAME TIME!!!
NO WONDER PAUL WROTE:
"Who also makes us competent dispensers of a NEW covenant, NOT of the letter, but OF the spirit, for the letter KILLS but the spirit gives LIFE" (II Cor. 3:6).
The Old Covenant written in Ten Commandments on stone tablets was an "ADMINISTRATION OF DEATH" (Ver. 7). And the letter will ALWAYS KILL:
"They shall put you out of the synagogues; yea, the time comes, that whosoever KILLS YOU will think that he does God service [by following the law of Moses under the Old Covenant]" (John 16:2).
To prove to God his GREATEST ZEAL, Paul persecuted and slaughtered the church, which was legal for him to do under the authority of the High Priest, Chief Priests, Elders and Council at the Temple in Jerusalem, of whom Jesus Himself said, "They SIT IN MOSES SEAT." And it was this very ZEAL FOR GOD that also made him the world’s WORST SINNER! Unbelievable! UNBELIEVABLE!! UNBELIEVABLE!!!
But we must believe it—it is the Word of God!
PHARISEES ALWAYS COMMAND
KEEPING THE LAW OF MOSES
"But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed [yes, they were Christian Pharisees] saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to KEEP THE LAW OF MOSES" (Acts 15:5).
Did the church and the elders and disciples now under the Apostles’ care agree with these Pharisees that the Gentles must "keep the law of Moses?" No, they absolutely did not. Read chapter 15 of Acts for yourself.
Paul came OUT of the religion of the Jews COMPLETELY.
"Yea doubtless, and I count ALL THINGS but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for Whom I have suffered the loss of ALL things, and do count them but DUNG, that I may win Christ" (Phil. 3:08).
The Christian world is teaching and striving to KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF MOSES IN THEIR HEARTS—The Apostle Paul already accomplished that feat and he called that great accomplishment of perfect commandment keeping—"DUNG"!
It was at this stage of Paul’s spiritual development and accomplishment that God labeled Paul "THE CHIEF OF SINNERS." Need I say more? Does anyone reading this "have an ear to hear what the Spirit is saying to the Churches?"
And so the Pharisees today are still commanding everyone, everywhere to "KEEP THE LAW OF MOSES?" The Church does not understand that Jesus Christ is the REALITY of what the Old Covenant Laws of Moses were but the shadow.
In a previous installment I showed you how that God converted Saul into Paul in a giant flash of light. God took Paul from the world’s greatest law-keeper and the world’s greatest sinner into the reality of Jesus Christ in a matter of SECONDS! Paul was shaken to his very foundation on that glorious day on the road to Demascus.
Paul had to COME OUT of the mother church of which he was totally dedicated all the days of his life. Paul was a good Jew, but he was a bad Christian.
Many things that the Church today aspires to are the very things that Paul repented of and called "dung."
The "Jew’s religion" as Paul called it was the true Church of God that settled in Jerusalem after coming out of Egypt and out of the Wilderness. But within a short generation after our Lord’s crucifixion and resurrection, the Church of God, at the temple in Jerusalem, came to an end. And to this day, there is no more sacrificing, there is no more a temple and there is no more a Levitic Priesthood.
Ironically, in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, "church" is mentioned in but two Scriptures. In Matt. 18:17 Jesus refers to "the church" and in Matt. 16:18 He refers to "My church" which He said HE would build. And the seven churches in Rev. 2 & 3 are representative of and the personification of the church that Jesus Christ built. It was THAT church that Jesus built, that Paul the Judaic Pharisee, persecuted. Jesus prophesied that the church would be persecuted and scattered:
"And Jesus said unto them, ALL YE shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, ‘I will smite the Shepherd [the Christ], and the sheep shall be SCATTERED" (Mark 14:27).
The church multiplied in numbers very quickly after the Resurrection, but persecution multiplied also:
"And Saul was consenting unto his [Stephen’s] death. And at that time there was a GREAT PERSECUTION against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were ALL SCATTERED ABROAD throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles" (Acts 8:1).
GOD’S PEOPLE ARE STILL SCATTERED AND PERSECUTED
Well don’t think that the persecution of the Church stopped just because God converted Saul/Paul, the chief persecutor. It did not. Following Christ is synonymous with persecution:
"Yea, and ALL that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer PERSECUTION" (II Tim. 3:12).
Don’t be deceived into thinking that this persecution will come from the world of godless atheism.
God is creating Sons that bear His Name, have His Spirit, have the Mind of Christ, and are the express image of our Elder Brother, Jesus Christ. It is the highest calling in the universe! Although the sacrifices are great, the rewards are FAR GREATER!
If God is calling you to be a Son, you must come out of "Mystery Babylon the Great, mother of harlots, and the abominations of the earth."
When you see the truth of the seven churches of Revelation in our next installment, it may be the most troublesome truth you will ever encounter. There are few things in this world more bizarre or shocking than the truth of the Seven Churches of Revelation!
--------------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
YellowStone:
Arcturus, I would like to ask you what you mean by your following statement, so that I can gain a greater understanding of where you are coming from. :)
--- Quote from: Arcturus on May 21, 2007, 02:17:31 PM ---
For me there is only ONE Brother or Sister and THAT IS CHRIST in whomever is revealing HIM. My connection is to HIM. Paul showed in his writings that this was the intention and plan and purpose of Christ that we would eventually come to recognise HIM and that we might develop until we ALL attain oneness in the full and accurate knowledge of the SON OF GOD. Eph 4:13
--- End quote ---
Are you saying that you do not acknowledge fellow spiritual brothers and sisters in Christ, by stating that for you there is only one brother or sister and that is Christ? I am not understanding the "in whomever is revealing him" qualifier.
Based on what the Scriptures teach, asserting that their is only one brother or sister is a pretty bold statement and my intent is only to share the ramifications of such a stance. (in no way am I saying it is) :)
The Scriptures clearly instruct that those who recieved Christ, he gave power (the spirit of truth) and these became "sons of God."
Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
By definition, this makes such as these, spiritual brothers and sisters of Christ.
Paul spoke of the importance of this brother and sisterhood, and though he did not use this exact terminilogy, his intent is clear. :)
Eph 4:14 That we [henceforth] be no more children (the spiritual brethren), tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part (each spiritual brother and sister has a specific role in the body), maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Paul clearly understood the importance of recognizing his spiritual brothers and sisters and treating them well, for he knew full well that on this we shall all be judged.
Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in [his] brother's way.
I hope that you take all of this in the good spirit in which it was written.
Love to you, In Christ Jesus Our Saviour,
Darren
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