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[mrsnacks]

I have to think about what you said.

But mother's milk is not what is giving in the church. Mother's milk is good for you and always will be. We mature as you said but we don't quit drinking mother's milk because it is bad. But what the church teaches and what it gives you is bad. The milk that is good from the church is that is the introduction to God. That there is a God who exist and the Bible is the Word of God etc.

I think a better analogy is that today's kids and youth eat McDonald's or fast food. I do sometimes I admit when my wife isn't looking ( smile). It takes good and it's quick. But we know as mature adults that is terrible for you. Cokes and processed foods etc are bad. Ever see the movie about the guy who ate McDonalds for a month and what happened to him ?

So we move from eating the fast foods to eating raw vegetables, and if we eat meat that is organic not shot up with chemicals and hormones and we drink juices instead of cokes etc. And my wife and I eat a lot healthier. Why ? Because we have learned that fast food and most of what the masses eat is horrible for your health. My wife is in the medical field and lectures on diabetes and health issues.

So yes good comes from fast foods. It fills you up. It taste good at times. The cokes satisfies your thirst. But it is bad for you. And the teens now are getting diabetes, coming down with cancer. The doctrines of the church are the fast processed foods.

[YellowStone]

Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?

Is this a trick question?   

I ask because I do not think anyone got it? 

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.  

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Is there any truths coming out of the church. YOU BET!    The Spirit of Truth is dragging people out. What could be more truthful than that?

I think the question was meant as: "Is the church teaching any truth?"

Just a little humor to brighten a day.

Love to all in Christ,
Darren

[Redbird]

  That's good Darren

[skydreamers]

Hebrews 5:11-6:2
11  About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.
12  For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food,
13  for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child.
14  But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.
1  Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
2  and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.

How many people in the church even understand the truth in depth about "the resurrection of the dead" or even "eternal judgment"?  Yet the Hebrew writer calls these things the "elementary doctrine of Christ".  So it almost seems to me that even when we are called out of the Church and it's "false doctrines" we are most of us still in need of milk;  we are in need of someone to teach us AGAIN the basic oracles of God.  When we come out of mystery Babylon, we are just beginning to understand for example, what the resurrection of the dead is all about, and what eternal (aionios judgment) is, which I think is referring to "universal salvation".  It is in aionios judgment that the rest of the world is being brought to salvation....So the doctrine of universal salvation is EVEN YET the elementary teachings (milk) of the word.  We have yet to go even far beyond understanding these things before we are partaking of the meat of the word.  So coming out of the church, seeing the truths of universal salvation and that the dead sleep, and maybe even the truth of free will....is still, it seems to me, considered "milk". 

I heard Ray say in an audio (sorry, can't remember which one) that he understood these truths many years ago but he was still intensely struggling with sin, and so he likely would not have considered himself back then as having "powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil".  It has still taken him many years of prayer and study to get to where he is now, and through him we are only beginning to be exposed to the hidden truths (the meat) of God's word.  No offense to anyone, (and I include myself in this) but I think it is a rare few   even here on this forum that are understanding the "meat".  That is why we are in need of someone sent by God to teach us. 

So my thought is then:  milk or meat, we are all brothers and sisters....

Peace,
Diana

[rk12201960]

 
I would say there are truths in the church. as they do know who Jesus is, but the one thing they don't have is GODS SPIRIT.

If you are here that Spirit has called you here. this is the place of the elect in training as I can not say that we are the elect because till the end we're still under test and judgement.

I learned some things of value in satans church as they did come from the bible but ,he does lie and acts as if he is with God but, that is his job to misdirect and confuse.

The truth I've learned in Rays papers and backed up by scripture is what I base my answers and understanding on. there are things I had to change in my understanding (and they are plenty) but there is also things I've learned that are true to light in Gods word before God lead me here. Remember God has control of all things he desires.

Just my understanding,
Randy
    

[jackson]

Is there any truths coming out of the church. YOU BET!    The Spirit of Truth is dragging people out. What could be more truthful than that?

I think the question was meant as: "Is the church teaching any truth?"

This was the point I was trying to make.  Sorry for my ambiguity.

Not only that, but also although we have been called out of the church we are not to smit our brothers and sister still being held in the church.

I think we are all of the same mind on this; just looking at it from different perspectives.

Jackson

[cherokee]

I would also have to say there are truths in the church.

This is how I have come to understand it.

In the church one learns half(milk) truths.

Once we are dragged out we learn whole(meat) truths.

I just don't think I would appreciate as much the truths(good) I have learned here and from Ray if I had not experienced the lie(evil) in the church.
 

Ever learning,
Suzie

[skydreamers]

church just served flavored milk!

That's funny Darren, I like that!

Also, I think you're probably right, in that many of us are at least wanting to be ready for the meat.....I know I want it, but only God knows if I'm ready .

I see the flood as kind of a shadow of our baptism of the spirit (of water)...it was after the flood (this baptism) that God gave humanity meat to eat...and really it was only Noah and his family who first got to partake of "meat"...and they are representative of the Elect as I understand it (the few out of the many....8 people out of likely how many who were living on the earth at that time....wow, very few indeed!)

Matthew 3:16-17
16  And Jesus, when He had been baptized, went up immediately out of the water. And lo, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting upon Him.
17  And lo, a voice from Heaven, saying, This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Matthew 20:22
22  But Jesus answered and said, You do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They said to Him, We are able.

I pray that God make me able....I pray for spiritual meat....but I'm thinking I have only gone through the first baptism (of John) and perhaps not yet baptized by the holy spirit...I don't know, I can't tell.  All those people baptized by John did not yet have the holy spirit dwelling in them.  This is why I think I still have a ways to go before I can receive the "meat".  And I think that the church experience may well be like that first baptism....the second is still to come.

The church experience is extremely valuable and necessary and it begins to show us the need to repent of our sins.  Secular people have no concern for such things.  Church people are at least aware of sins and are being convicted to confess them. 

Mark 1:3-4
3  The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4  John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

For this and many other reasons I am thankful for and appreciate the importance of my church experience as well, as I think most everyone here does. 

As Suzie said

I just don't think I would appreciate as much the truths(good) I have learned here and from Ray if I had not experienced the lie(evil) in the church.

God seems to teach us most everything by way of contrasts.

Peace,
Diana

[seminole]

I admire so much how so many here can reason things out. It's beyond my ability I'm afraid. I don't know if it is just me or if human beings in general have difficulty wrapping their minds around resurrection, eternal , etc. It is not logical but miraculous. There isn't a step 1, step 2 thing to it. The bottom line to me is this: It is not right to get rich off doing anything for God, Jesus is for everyone, He is love in the greatest sense and all will be as the Father has planned. I don't think it right to put people down. I get real confused when I read stuff here about church. It sounds like every person and every church is evil according to many on the forum. To me that is not right. It is judging and I am not supposed to do that. That is for God. I think back to a precious lady when I was little who taught me about Jesus in Sunday School. Was she evil? I say no! She made an impression on my life. She didn't have to take of her time to do that, she did it because she wanted to.
Seminole

[skydreamers]

Hi Seminole,

I think I understand your concerns, but I'm also wondering if you are maybe misunderstanding a little about where people are coming from when they are discussing the church.

You say:

I don't think it right to put people down. I get real confused when I read stuff here about church. It sounds like every person and every church is evil according to many on the forum. To me that is not right. It is judging and I am not supposed to do that. That is for God. I think back to a precious lady when I was little who taught me about Jesus in Sunday School. Was she evil? I say no!

I guess I shouldn't speak for everyone, but the way I understand it, is that no one actually considers the people themselves in the church as "evil".  It is the teachings of false doctrines that is evil.  There is much scriptural evidence to show that Satan dwells in the churches, so much of what is taught stems from evil and false doctrines originating with him.  A good paper to read on this would be Ray's paper entitled:  The Synagogue of Satan
http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html

This does not mean that there aren't many sincere, honest and loving Christians doing the very best they can with what they know.  Everyone on this forum was part of a church at one time or another, and most appreciate how the church has helped us get this far.  You need to first be IN a church to be CALLED OUT of a church.  I for one, have great respect and love for all those who are in a church and I realize fully that only God can open their eyes to see what is false, just as He has done for most of us.  To be deceived does not necessarily mean you have an evil character, but you are ensnared by an evil system of religion. 

So I don't think anyone is "putting down" others who are still in the church.  We are no better...it is only by the grace of God that we've even been given the privilege of understanding certain things.  It was not by our own power or works.  As you so rightly say:

I don't know if it is just me or if human beings in general have difficulty wrapping their minds around resurrection, eternal , etc. It is not logical but miraculous.

It is only by a miracle and the power of God that we are able to discern any truth.  So what have we got to be haughty about?  All of us must always remain humble when dealing with God's children, for we are all his creation.

I do think that most, if not all, on this forum feel similar to this.  If not, then that is between them and God.

1 Corinthians 10:12
Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.

I hope I have not confused you more  

Peace to you,
Diana
 

[mrsnacks]

You have said it well Skydreamers. I think of what Jesus said on the cross " Father forgive them for they know not what they do. "  It is the same with the church today. They don't know what they are doing. You can't get mad at anyone for being blind. It is like getting upset at a 3 year old for not being able to drive a car.

[rk12201960]

Hi seminole,

Its a hard thing to know everything about God. As I understand our understanding doesn't even come close to Gods. We therefore keep it simple (KIS) and try to hang on. Thats why if I come across something that seems to hard to understand then I go back to the basics, such as the church { false teachings) belong to Satan. This is how God wills it.

I could put tons of scripture in this but if I don't get across to whom I'm speaking then I'm just a clashing noise, not understood and a pain to the ears.
So 'm going to keep it simple.

The dear Lady who took the time to teach is not evil, in that respects. (I don't know her)
We don't throw out the baby with the bath water, even tho they are in satans church dose not mean that they are evil, it just means that their understanding is led in confusion by Satan.

Listen Sem, don't feel bad because you don't understand all that is here on the forum. You are here because God seen something in you and put you right where you are.

Satan might be driving the car  (church) but for sure that doesn't mean all others in the car are the same as the driver (Satan, evil) They are just there for the ride and can't control where they are going.
Then God (red light) stops the car a pulls you out. Most whom is taken out really doesn't want to get back in the car because they now understand thats not a good place to be.

I rode in that car for a LONG time as many here have, so when they say that the church is evil its the driver we are talking about.

Hope this helps,
Peace and wisdom

Randy  
 

[Craig]

Seminole,

There is a wealth of wisdom in what Randy said, please take it to heart.

Blessings

Craig

[Deborah-Leigh]

I have posted this quote in another thread and I see it fits here too! It is from LOF part 9 quoting Ray :

Remember always as we attempt to enlighten those whom God is calling that we are NO BETTER than those whose doctrines we condemn.

The whole Church is called .

Peace to you

Arcturus

[Kat]

The many years I went to church was to 'worship' God.  I thought that was where I needed to be to show God how much I loved Him.  Looking back I can see all those years I never worshipped in the Spirit of Truth while there.  I was trying to serve the church, to show God I loved Him    I do not regret the service I did in the church, but I know now that I want to worship God in Truth and that is not the place to do it.
 
Here is an email from Ray on worship.

http://bible-truths.com/email16.htm#worship --------------------

[Ray Replies]

Dear Barry:

Excellent question.  Sometimes we fail to see the trees for the forest, as they say. It has come to be commonly believed by the whole world of Christendom that "worshipping" is something that takes place Sunday morning and Wednesday evening in a church BUILDING.  Now I don't want to throw out the baby with the bath water, but most of these "worship" services are anything BUT worshipping God.

They are times of ENTERTAINMENT.  Young people go to rock concerts for entertainment, and many Christians go to church for entertainment.  Turn off the sound and just watch the audiences and you will see that both the rock concert and some church services are virtually identical.

What is true godly "worship," and how and where is it done? The answer may shock some.

Jesus said that: 

"Howebeit IN VAIN do they WORSHIP me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men"  (Mark 7:7).

Wow!  This is a biggie.  If we do not teach the commandments OF GOD, we are worshipping God in VAIN!  Yet what is it that is taught during these so-called "worship services" but the commandments of MEN?   (See the forty Christian contradictions that I present in Part II of my series on "The Lake of Fire," on the last three pages).

When Paul went up to Jerusalem "to worship," did he go to the Temple? 

"...I went up to Jerusalem for to WORSHIP. And they neither found me in the TEMPLE..." 

What about the synagogues?

"...neither in the SYNAGOGUES..."   

What about in the city, Jerusalem? 

"...nor in the city"   (Acts 24:11b-12).

WHY didn't Paul worship in the Temple or in the synagogues or in the city?  Because: 

"Howbeit the Most high DWELLS NOT in temples made with hands..."  (Acts 7:48).

"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth, DWELLS NOT in temples made with hands"  (Acts 17:24).

But why didn't Paul worship God in the City of Jerusalem?  Because:

"The woman said unto Him [Jesus], Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet.  Our fathers worshiped in this mountain; and ye [all of you Jews] say, that in JERUSALEM is the place where men ought to worship"  (John 4:19-20). 

And what did Jesus have to say about the "location" of our worship?

"Jesus said unto her, Woman, believe Me, the hour comes , when ye shall NEITHER in this mountain, NOR YET AT JERUSALEM, worship the Father"   (John 4:21). 

Jesus then gives is the truth about WHERE and HOW to WORSHIP GOD:

"But the hour comes, and now is, when the TRUE worshippers shall worship the Father IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH: for the Father seeks such to worship Him.  God is Spirit: and they that worship Him MUST WORSHIP HIM IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH."

There my brothers is the true answer as to where and how we are to worship God.

I am not suggesting that we cannot worship God in hymn and song, or in praise and prayer, but it always MUST BE IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH.  Most Christian worship is in the FLESH and in ERROR.

We are to worship IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH, and let me be quick to add that this kind of worship should take place in our lives, EVERY DAY,  ALL DAY LONG! 

Start teaching these marvelous Truths in your meetings and soon you will all be "worshipping God in Spirit and in Truth"!  Let me know if there are further questions you have regarding this or other subjects.

God be with you all,

Ray
-----------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[LittleBear]

Hi Seminole,

There are excellent answers to your query. I can't add anything that hasn't already been said. I came out of the church because I couldn't stand the system any longer. And I couldn't sit there and listen to untruth any longer.

I love the people. I want to be with them. But I want to be WITH them. I want to be able to talk about what's in my heart, I want to be able to share with them about who God really is and about His kingdom. I don't want to compromise or just go along with things when I know they are not right.

This is how I feel about it.

Love,
Ursula

[mari_et_pere]

I think people's hearts are in the right place generally speaking. Just because they believe what we consider wrong is no reason to hold them in disdain. I don't think anyone here feels that way. I hope not! My grandpa on my mom's side was a preacher man. His heart was golden. I know for a fact his congregation was golden also. They may have all been misguided, but evil? Certainly not!
My grandma on my dad's side had a golden heart for children. She taught bible school in her basement for as long as I knew her, which happened to be 23 years, and I'm sure she was teaching it before I was born. Her heart was in the right place. She held on to some mistaken views, but I guarantee that you've never met a sweeter old woman in your life. To call either of them evil would be fighting words.
Just my two cents.

Peace

Matt

[Deborah-Leigh]

My Father was from Russian Jewish descent and my Mother from Irish Scottish descent. My Father converted to Catholicism. As a child I was bred into the Catholic indoctrinations! My Great Grand Parents had Spiritualist associations. So there I was with Judaism, Spiritualism and Catholicism to navigate through. It took me more than thirty years of searching through that lot. 

Our Lord sure shows us some interesting territories as He leads us in His Wisdom Understanding and Plan!

When finally I gave up the search, I was blessed to be found...then dragged...then shown Bible Truths Alleluia...at LAST 

Peace to you

Arcturus

[mari_et_pere]

Arcturus, glad you could make it! 

Matt

[seminole]

I thank you all for your responses. It is a lot to think about and that is what I will be doing.
Seminole