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Author Topic: Image of Christ  (Read 7612 times)

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hillsbororiver

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Image of Christ
« on: May 24, 2007, 07:25:50 PM »

You would think that the followers of Jesus would have at least a basic understanding of Him, what His purpose was during His earthly ministry and how the things that he experienced and showed us (all believers) were not only for us but for Him as well.

Since He was an example to all men who call themselves believers it was planned from the beginning that He would have none of the advantages in this life that His glorious position as the Son of God might or could afford Him. Our Lord Jesus humbled Himself to become the lowest of the low, not only in the day leading to the crucifixion but throughout His ministry.

This past Sunday Ray spoke of this and really brought to light the humble heart of the Creator of the Universe, leading up to the presentation were pictures of the Milky Way in all its splendor and the great and vast distances between the celestial bodies in our galaxy, of course creation is not limited to our galaxy alone, there are countless others out there. These pictures and discussion of the sheer majesty of His creation and how the Creator of it elected to become a man, not only a man but an undesirable, physically unattractive, sickly man who knew what day to day pain was through His own experience with it.

Ray passed around a picture that would be one of the popular renderings of what the churches believe (or would like to believe) Christ looked like, you know the look, perfect features a handsome countenance, movie star looks that would be the envy of the top male actors, if only they had People Magazine in those days, Jesus the heartbreaker would have had a huge following of teen age girls and breathless TV interviewers would hang on His every Word. This is the popular perception of our Lord's physical appearance, but what do the scriptures say?


(Rotherham's Emphasized Bible)

Isaiah 53

1 Who believed what we have heard?
2 <When he came up as a sapling before him. And as a root-sprout out of dry ground>
  He had neither beauty or majesty, <When we beheld him> there was nothing to behold that we should desire him; 
3 Despised was he, and forsaken of men, Man of pains and familiar with sickness,-
  Yes <like one from whom the face is hidden> Despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 [Yet surely] <our sicknesses> he carried, And <as for our pains> he bare the burdon of them,-
  But we accounted him stricken, Smitten of God, and humbled.

Not a pretty picture.

I admit that I never contemplated or meditated on this too much, I had come to realize through the scriptures that Jesus was not the handsomest man to ever walk the earth (Adam maybe) but did not see before that not only was He a plain man but actually unattractive even ugly, with physical ailments as well!

Ray also gave an example of how often Jesus was surrounded by "the multitudes" who were there for mainly one reason, to get healed! Well maybe get a free lunch or meal too, He was pressed upon constantly often having to go up a mountain or a boat to get some rest, some down time. (Do an e-sword search on multitudes you'll see what Ray was speaking of). Imagine having physical pain and being pressed upon by crowds constantly, everyone wanting something from you, He volunteered for this because He loves us so much, His way of life on this earth and His horrible death is exactly how He proves this. The ultimate proof.


Luke 4;23 And he said unto them-
[[By all means]] ye will speak to me this similitude: Physician heal thyself- <Whatsoever things we have heard of coming to pass in Capernaum> do here also, [in thine own country].

"Physician heal thyself," taunts from the crowd, wiseguys were as clever then as they are now!

This was an eye opener for me, in fact I was holding back the tears fairly well until I saw a brother actually sobbing in front of me, it was over, I wept in sheer awe of the infinite Love that is our Creator and our God, remember the Father is revealed through His Son, this is also the depth of Love our Father in heaven has for His children.

Joh 14:8  Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
 
Joh 14:9  Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

This is a powerful audio from last Sunday's portion of the Conference, it is an incredible thing to meditate on.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe


 



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Rene

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Re: Image of Christ
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2007, 08:30:16 PM »

Amen, Joe!

I too was in tears after coming to the realization of the physical state of Jesus in the flesh.  This revelation helped me to get a better appreciation of God's love for us, as well as what true humility means. 

1 John 4:19 says, "We love Him because He first loved us."  It is true, the more I get to know the love of our God, the more I love Him.

Rene'
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Kat

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Re: Image of Christ
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2007, 08:30:51 PM »

Hi Joe,

I too was really struck by this.  But you know it makes perfect sense, that Christ would have been willing to go through a life filled with physical suffering.  
I can't help but wonder if His physical appearance was not the reason that He was rejected by some, like the religious leaders.  He did not come up to the image they expected, in the Messiah.  Maybe this has something to do with their reviling Him.

1Peter 2:23  who when He was reviled did not revile in return. When He suffered, He did not threaten, but gave Himself up to Him who judges righteously.

For me this actually gives me a greater degree of awe for Him, if that is possible.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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YellowStone

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Re: Image of Christ
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2007, 09:33:19 PM »

Hi Joe, my dear brother,

Thanks for sharing your wonderful insight, once again. Rene & Kat, thanks too for sharing :)

By no means am I suggesting that Jesus was a Hollywood type.  :D

But then I reject the idea that he was downtrodden, with sad broken eyes as many modern day pictures dipict him.

Could Christ have had physical ailments? Most surely, but did he hide his face like many men would. (Isaiah 53:3)

I truly do not believe so. There was something about Christ the man that attracted people, even children, other than his appearance. It could not have been his "puffed up, go get em' attitude" because his heart was not boastful nore flamboyant. His heart was meek and lowly.

Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek (gentle, mild) and lowly (humble) in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

So what was it about him? Well my answer is only conjecture, yet I am sure that there was something about Christ that transcended his dress, appearance and or physical condition. I would think that he would have had the most captivating eyes of any man that ever walked, I am sure that they would have been bright with truth and love. Could it have been his eyes that offended the Pharisee and "their" followers; perhaps because they could "see" the simple truth of his words.

Perhaps it was his eyes that held the attention of the children.

Mat 19:13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put [his] hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them. 

Mat 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.  

However, the reference to the children is more inline to their childhood innocence and playful nature than the "self-righteous, all-knowing and unforgiving" nature of all to many men and women. :)

1Pe 3:8 Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble.

9 Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing.

“10 For, Whoever would love life
and see good days
must keep his tongue from evil
and his lips from deceitful speech.

11 He must turn from evil and do good;
he must seek peace and pursue it.

12 For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous
and his ears are attentive to their prayer,
but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.”

There has been a lot of interest in the 'Brother' in scripture thread and I think this topic fits like a glove.

Mat 5:5 Blessed [are] the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. 

If any is to be a brother or sister with Christ, having a meek and lowly heart for one another is not an option, but rather a prerequisite. :)

Thank you again Joe for your wonderful, yet gentle insight.

Your brother in Christ,

Darren
« Last Edit: May 24, 2007, 11:43:19 PM by YellowStone »
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psalmsinger

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Re: Image of Christ
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2007, 10:16:27 PM »

I had to look up all the Hebrew and English words used in these scriptures to get the depth of the meaning.  The Miriam-Webster's online dictionary is right handy:)

Etymology: Middle English comly, alteration of Old English cymlic glorious, from cyme lively, fine; akin to Old High German kumig weak
1 : pleasurably conforming to notions of good appearance, suitability, or proportion
2 : having a pleasing appearance : not homely or plain
synonym see BEAUTIFUL
- come·li·ness noun

I really like this definition of Beauty.  You can see that to most people He had no beauty that we should desire Him, but some are drawn of His spirit.

Beauty
1 : the quality or aggregate of qualities in a person or thing that gives pleasure to the senses or pleasurably exalts the mind or spirit :


Some of the other translations of the word comliness from the Hebrew include "glory"........Beauty isn't always physical or on a physical level.  Beauty is in the eye of the beholder according to what is their own personal preference. I have known beautiful people whose spirit was ugly and therefore physically ugly to me and physically unattractive people whose spirit was warm and beautiful and therefore physically beautiful to me.....Everyone knows with enough "glory" from the right make-over and enough pomp and circumstance even the ordinary or ugly can appear beautiful to the eye of the crowd.   He had no comliness may be speaking of physical unattractiveness, but it is most definitely speaking of not having the glory that he had with the Father.  He came divested of His glory. Perhaps He was just an ordinary looking human with no "glory" that could be seen with the naked eye......He certainly was not esteemed as having any glory.  He did have an extraordinary load to bear of the pain, suffering, sickness, of all those that He healed.  That  would have taken a great toll on His physical health.  Remember the "virtue" went out of him when the woman touched the hem of His garment?   

I was looking at the definition of ugly too.  Surely the scribes, pharisees, and unbelievers felt He was exactly like this in the spirit.  I would even dare to say that according to doctrines of the church today (a god who tortures his children in hell for eternity comes to mind) that many esteem Jesus Christ as spiritually ugly.

Main Entry: 1ug·ly
Pronunciation: '&-glE
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): ug·li·er; -est
Etymology: Middle English, from Old Norse uggligr, from uggr fear; akin to Old Norse ugga to fear
1 : FRIGHTFUL, DIRE
2 a : offensive to the sight : HIDEOUS b : offensive or unpleasant to any sense
3 : morally offensive or objectionable <corruption--the ugliest stain of all>
4 a : likely to cause inconvenience or discomfort <the ugly truth> b : SURLY, QUARRELSOME <an ugly disposition> <the crowd got ugly>
- ug·li·ly  /-gl&-lE/ adverb

I hope I didn't bore you to death with details.  I have enjoyed looking up the importance every word for a while now.

Barbara
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LittleBear

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Re: Image of Christ
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2007, 11:40:36 PM »

Hi Joe,

Thanks for sharing this. This truth is another pearl of great price to be added to all the others I've acquired since God started to open my eyes. I will hold this in my heart to know that Jesus even gave up physical beauty in this world.

People are attracted to beautiful people. Now, as well as in the time of the Bible. We strive to keep up appearances because beauty is a sign of success and power in our society.
Hi Joe,

I too was really struck by this.  But you know it makes perfect sense, that Christ would have been willing to go through a life filled with physical suffering.  
I can't help but wonder if His physical appearance was not the reason that He was rejected by some, like the religious leaders.  He did not come up to the image they expected, in the Messiah.  Maybe this has something to do with their reviling Him.

1Peter 2:23  who when He was reviled did not revile in return. When He suffered, He did not threaten, but gave Himself up to Him who judges righteously.

For me this actually gives me a greater degree of awe for Him, if that is possible.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat



I so agree with you Kat. I think that his appearance would certainly have contributed to Him being reviled and looked down on and rejected. He amazes me!
I'm going to be thinking about this for a long time.

Love,
Ursula
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gmik

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Re: Image of Christ
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2007, 01:03:38 AM »

Joe and Barbara thanks for the awesome reminder!!  That too stuck w/ me all week.

Jerry(hubby) went to Dr office the other day and came back with that exact flyer that Ray passed around of the hollywood Jesus.  Exactly the same.  We had a laugh!  Had never seen it before and then see it twice in one week!

Why they want to add to the Word of God and placate the masses w/ a picture totally opposite of scripture!! Just more deception.
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Redbird

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Re: Image of Christ
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2007, 07:40:52 AM »

Hi Barbara,

Thank you for doing that research.  I tend to think that is a good rendering.  "Physician, heal thyself" might also demonstrate how the pharisees thought Jesus was "sick" himself ~ as they surely did not recognize him as the Christ.  Because they were blind.

Peace to you,
Lisa
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Image of Christ
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2007, 09:58:36 AM »

*Since this topic has apparently split into two threads I will put this reply in both.

I agree that the most important result of topics such as this is that we open our bibles and study the Word for enlightenment.

I tend to disagree that it is an unimportant and insignificant issue in regard to the (physical) sufferings of our Lord and the obstacles in His own path. If He were a perfect (our carnal version) specimen and only truly suffered in Gethsemane and on Calvary then it could be said that He really did not have a true human experience. I believe that what He went through will prove to be the most difficult journey ever experienced by any man, compounded by the knowledge of His former glorious state of existence.

No one will be able to face Jesus in judgment and make the claim "You really did not know suffering, sure you had one tough day but my whole life was full of trials and misery, you knew that once you got past that day you would be back to glory, I went through my whole life in pain, being mocked by others and never enjoying any popularity with men or women. You think you suffered? Yeah right!"

He covered those bases by His humble sufferings.   

Peter was crucified upside down, Paul suffered through all sorts of health issues and natural disasters, are we to assume their human experience was more difficult than our Lord's? Will there be anyone at all who can make that claim?


2Co 1:5  For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.

Col 1:24  Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

1Pe 1:11  Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

 1Pe 4:13  But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

1Pe 5:1  The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

Is this really speaking of only one day?

As far as the rejection of Christ by the religeous leaders of His time, I cannot see this being primarily a spiritual rejection as these leaders were totally carnal, looking for a messiah that would lead them to victory over the Romans not to victory over their flesh, they sought a worldly kingdom, not the spiritual Kingdom of God, they were looking for David, a physical warrior and an insatiable womanizer who appealed to the masculinity of men as a leader in war and who was desired by women because of his stature and worldly power.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

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LittleBear

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Re: Image of Christ
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2007, 11:10:29 AM »

I just thought of a scripture which is related.

Luke 1615. Ye are they which justify yourselves before men but God knows your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

It seems to me that Jesus came into the world stripped of all the things that are esteemed  among men. I don't know if he was rich or not, but I wouldn't think so because wealth is revered in the world. Now we are learning that he did not have physical beauty and he suffered during his life. He was a perfect man living among fleshly, carnal, men. And he alone sought the things of His Father. That too would have made him lonely and unpopular. He can certainly relate to our sufferings! This totally humbles me, because he went through this life and suffering, without complaining. He is a true example for all of us when we go through afflictions because he went through all of them Himself, and He did it perfectly.

I'm just wondering, is it the actual money, beauty, social status that are the abominations in the sight of God, or is it the worship of them that is abominable to God?

Much love,
Ursula
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Image of Christ
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2007, 11:27:17 AM »


I'm just wondering, is it the actual money, beauty, social status that are the abominations in the sight of God, or is it the worship of them that is abominable to God?


Hi Ursula,

It is the worship of these idols of wealth, beauty & social status that is an abomination, anything that we love more than doing His will is a stumbling block and a dead end to spiritual growth in our journey. There is no moral superiority in being poor in and of itself, there are poor, ugly & homeless people out there just as wicked as the most selfish of the rich, beautiful & famous.

His Peace to you,

Joe   
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LittleBear

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Re: Image of Christ
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2007, 11:49:29 AM »

Hi Joe,

That is a good point. I'm reminded of the rich young ruler who did not follow Jesus but stayed with his wealth instead. He had a choice to make, either give away all his riches, which were an idol in his heart, or give it up and follow the Lord. We all have that choice at various times in our lives; it may not be riches, but it will be SOMETHING that we so love that it becomes a stumbling block in our spiritual growth if we don't let it go.

This walk with God just gets more and more exciting!

Ursula
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YellowStone

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Re: Image of Christ
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2007, 12:08:29 PM »

Hi Ursula,

Thanks for a very insightful post. :)

(Your text in blue)

I would like to comment on the similar parallels between Christs life as a man, and our own. :)

It seems to me that Jesus came into the world stripped of all the things that are esteemed among men. I don't know if he was rich or not, but I wouldn't think so because wealth is revered in the world.

Not so dissimilar to how we came into the world; small, defenseless and naked. How many today are rich in the world? Wealth in material objects is itself not a sin; however, as Joe said, the love of such over God is. :)

Now we are learning that he did not have physical beauty and he suffered during his life. He was a perfect man living among fleshly, carnal, men. And he alone sought the things of His Father.

Did we really learn this? Are we confusing physical beauty with spiritual beauty? There is not one word in the Greek Scriptures that mention that Christ was ugly, deformed or handicapped. We are NOT told that the world scorned him because of His physical appearance, so to assume such is mere speculation.

However, we do know very well that the self-rightous scorned Jesus, because of the Spirit of Truth he was speaking. Surely, the indignant, so called "spirit of the world" leaders found Christs True Spiritual message UGLY and DEFORMED :)

1Cr 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

I will admit that I am very careful of whom I reveal the Spirit of Truth to; I hide the words and do not reveal them. Not so much because of fear for ridicule, but because I know that the "spirit of the world" would find the Truth ugly and would not see or understand.

Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of Truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

It is my belief that this fullfills spiritually, the following from Isaiah :)

Isa 53:3  He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. :)

This is not saying that they hid their faces from Christ, but rather their hearts. :)


That too would have made him lonely and unpopular. He can certainly relate to our sufferings! This totally humbles me, because he went through this life and suffering, without complaining.

He was very unpopular with the "spirit of the world" leaders. His Truth, is still hated and despised by the same today, perhaps even more so? :)

Luk 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you [from their company], and shall reproach [you], and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake. 


He is a true example for all of us when we go through afflictions because he went through all of them Himself, and He did it perfectly.

Is not the entire message of the Gospel of Christ for our TRUE Spiritual growth. I believe that the scorn, hatred and suffering was not because of his physical condition, because the world cannot hate its own.

Jhn 7:7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.  

Jhn 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.  


Christ suffered for our Spiritual afflictions; were they not then and all the more so in the "spiritual world" today; cancerous, malnourished, half starved, ugly, deformed, crippled and all but dead?  I think so!  :D

Well this is at least how I see it.

Your brother in Christ,
Darren
« Last Edit: May 25, 2007, 12:51:13 PM by YellowStone »
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Image of Christ
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2007, 12:23:06 PM »

Hi Darren,

Where is it written that there were actually spiritual leaders during the time of Jesus?

He was the only One who was "spiritual." Everyone else was carnal! There were church/synagogue/religious leaders for sure, they worshipped the positions of worldly power, physical strengths, beauty and riches, they could see nothing else.

That is why they rejected Him, they were blind to the spiritual and focused on the physical.

Give us Barabbas!

His Peace to you,

Joe
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YellowStone

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Re: Image of Christ
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2007, 12:39:43 PM »

Hi Darren,

Where is it written that there were actually spiritual leaders during the time of Jesus?

He was the only One who was "spiritual." Everyone else was carnal! There were church/synagogue/religious leaders for sure, they worshipped the positions of worldly power, physical strengths, beauty and riches, they could see nothing else.

That is why they rejected Him, they were blind to the spiritual and focused on the physical.

Give us Barabbas!

His Peace to you,

Joe

Hi Joe,

I think you might have missed the words:

     the indignant worldly, spiritual leaders
     "spiritual world"
     spiritual leaders of the world


This is in direct accordance to the words of Paul, regarding the "spirit of the world." 

1Cr 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Do not the so called righteous leaders assume that they have a handle on all "spiritual" matters, yet is the the Spirit of Truth that has granted them such knowledge, or the carnal spirit of the world?  :)

Thanks Joe,

Darren
« Last Edit: May 25, 2007, 12:43:58 PM by YellowStone »
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Image of Christ
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2007, 12:42:32 PM »

Darren,

The "spirit of the world" is carnal and at enmity with God.

His Peace to you Brother,

Joe
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YellowStone

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Re: Image of Christ
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2007, 12:47:00 PM »

Joe,

I agree with you 100% :D

I did NOT say anything different. I did go back and change all references to the "spiritual world" to "spirit of the world" so that my intent can be seen for what it is.

Sorry for the confusion and thanks for the "heads-up"

Love to you my brother,
Darren
« Last Edit: May 25, 2007, 12:53:03 PM by YellowStone »
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Image of Christ
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2007, 04:15:13 PM »

Darren

have you listened to the Nashville Conference ???



As Ray says in LOF part 9 quote:

Remember always as we attempt to enlighten those whom God is calling that we are NO BETTER than those whose doctrines we condemn.

Why tempt? I am not in the Forum to argue or debate about what you think is right or wrong. ;D :D

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
« Last Edit: May 25, 2007, 04:43:15 PM by Arcturus »
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Image of Christ
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2007, 06:36:16 PM »

A thought to ponder....

As far as being diseased please consider that being exposed to every sort of illness, disease, ailment, etc. that can possibly infect man or beast is it surprising that Jesus began to carry the weight of this exposure? He would not, did not use His healing powers or any of His powers for Himself, He had a human body, a human immune system and did not supernaturally give Himself doses of penicillin or any antibiotic that we can see in scripture, is it a stretch to see His body as suffering because of this exposure?

We know His mental state also suffered from the lack of faith and the spiritual condition of the people that constantly surrounded Him (e-sword "multitudes") why would His physical body not suffer as well from exposure to their diseases?

Please refer back to an earlier post where Paul & Peter both refer to Christ's sufferings that "s" means plural, numerous sufferings.

If you have not yet heard Ray's presentation of this topic I beg you to listen, this will not diminish your perception of Jesus, it should enhance it. The love of our Creator toward His children is humbling and worthy of the highest praise!

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe   
« Last Edit: May 26, 2007, 11:34:18 AM by hillsbororiver »
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LittleBear

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Re: Image of Christ
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2007, 11:10:47 PM »

Hi Darren, 

Thank you for your reply. I kind of see where you are coming from. For sure, the spiritual leaders of the world would have scorned and despised Him because of His spiritual message. He delivered it with power and conviction. If he was of great beauty with this message, He would have still been rejected.

Very true.

However.....

Isaiah 53:2  For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of dry ground. He has no form or comeliness; and when we see Him, there is no beauty that we should desire Him.

He made Himself lowly in all ways. He was not rich. He had no worldly status. He was a man of sorrows. And yes, He had no physical beauty.

Does that make you uncomfortable?

Love,
Ursula
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