Islam. (anyone know anything about Islam?)

[gmik]

Matt, cool analogy

[mari_et_pere]

Why thank you very much Gena! 

Matt

[Bamabee]

Pax, are you saying that Ray's quote are taken out of context and do not represent the general teaching of Islam?

Everyone else, I hear alot of people say the Quran teaches the murder of all who aren't Muslims.  Not that I am doubting you, but do we have chapter and verse?  I would like to read this for myself and am looking for a reference point.

[fe32k]

Islam is dependent on works which already contradicts the scriptures in itself. The books go in entirely different directions when it comes to salvation and worshiping God. The 5 pillars of Islam are 100% based on works and have very little to no spiritual value (maybe with the exception of prayer). It is a violent book, but our very own scriptures are not far behind so it is not a very good point to try and convince a sincere Muslim. I love Muslims and pray that their eyes are opened to truth. They criticize Christianity based on mainstream doctrines which we mostly hate ourselves (the Doctrines that is, I love Christians too). In reality, just like Christians and Jews, they haven't a clue as to the spiritual and delve on the physical and carnal. As we all know, God is Spirit and those that worship must worship Him in SPIRIT and TRUTH. Sorry if there is already a response similar to this one.

God be with you,
Roy

[Pax Vobiscum]

No.  Ray picked passages from the Qur'an which describe Hell (and its future inhabitants) in very graphic, violent terms.  So, in that respect, it was contextual and Hell (eternal torment for unbelievers and general riffraff) is in the teachings of Islam.

The Qur'an is written in surahs -- essentially chapters -- which someone long ago ordered by length rather than subject or chronology.  Since it took something like 26 years to recite, it can appear disjointed and contradictory (sound familiar?). 

As far as Islam being based on works -- that is partially correct.  Yet Islam has some powerful mysticism and poetic spirituality which, they say, is lost in the English translations.  I do not pretend to understand Arabic.

But here's the rub and why I join in on this conversation when I think I can contribute:  EVERYONE on Earth is on the same journey.  Think of it not as a bunch of different religious, sectional traditions opposed to one another, but as humans trying to gain understanding of this life.  Everyone is seeking Truth.

Can we really hate people just because they are not as "enlightened" as we?  Were we all not at some point in our lives conviced that we had the tiger of truth by the tail?  And now (we think) we know better?

Is there anyone out there who is silly enough to say that all has been revealed and understood by humans?  Of course not, so if there is still truth and understanding out there to be gained, then everything we believe today (within limits, I hope) is subject to that more complete revelation.  That puts everyone in the midst of the spectrum of Truth and no one on either end of it (that is to say I doubt there is anyone who has no Truth as well as anyone who knows all Truth).

If we are on on the same spectrum, then how might I so arrogantly claim such violent thoughts toward a fellow human being only because he is not "up" where I am!

The Cross is not for us to climb upon (with apologies to Camus) to see better who is not up here with us, it is a heavy spiritual burden.  Perhaps seeing these people as brothers and sisters who share our journey is what Jesus was talking about after all!

Peace

[gmik]

Pax, I would think we all agree.

Your quote by Ghandi says it all

[mari_et_pere]

Can we really hate people just because they are not as "enlightened" as we?

I hope you realize soon that nobody here is speaking hate toward any people. If I were going to hate others who's beliefs didn't line up with mine, I'd hate my sister, parents, and my own kids and wife, and probably you too. Who said anything about hate?

I agree we're all on a spiritual journey. I'm wise enough to learn from the scriptures and Islam that Islam is not the way to go. 

Matt

[hillsbororiver]

Islam is dependent on works which already contradicts the scriptures in itself. The books go in entirely different directions when it comes to salvation and worshiping God. The 5 pillars of Islam are 100% based on works and have very little to no spiritual value (maybe with the exception of prayer). It is a violent book, but our very own scriptures are not far behind so it is not a very good point to try and convince a sincere Muslim. I love Muslims and pray that their eyes are opened to truth. They criticize Christianity based on mainstream doctrines which we mostly hate ourselves (the Doctrines that is, I love Christians too). In reality, just like Christians and Jews, they haven't a clue as to the spiritual and delve on the physical and carnal. As we all know, God is Spirit and those that worship must worship Him in SPIRIT and TRUTH. Sorry if there is already a response similar to this one.

God be with you,
Roy

Roy,

That is the key, an excellent point you made.

The Muslim religion is works based rather than faith or spiritual based, it is as carnal as Judaism.

No one really understood the OT until the NT and New Covenant gave us keys to understanding, unless one has the Spirit of Christ within and is being spiritually converted into His Image no matter what good works they might do the same result applies, judgment after death to many stripes or a few stripes.

Sure the OT reads as a violent work in many of the pages but the deeper spiritual truths revealed in those Words is awe inspiring.

God is sending strong delusion to those who see the OT as strictly literal.

As far as shellfish go they are creatures of the sea and we know the sea represents the unbelieving multitudes, we should not partake or consume any of their pagan doctrines (religious food). The multitudes were also not chosen to understand the parables or even Christ Himself (presently).

Dietary law was also used in a vision Peter had after Pentecost where he saw the "unclean" foods spread on a sheet and was commanded to eat, when Peter refused he was given the meaning of the vision, "Christ is now calling Gentiles as well," the unclean have been deemed clean. All men are eventually brothers in Christ but the doctrines of paganism should not (and will not) be incorporated into His Spiritual Kingdom.

In many ways I agree with Pax that the religion of the Muslims is not a whole lot different than some of the christian churches especially after about 300 AD through the middle ages, but both religions are physical, carnal and dead. Without the Spirit of Christ there is no real life. It is obvious some Muslims (at least the ones getting all the attention) are stuck in this old time period as well.

His Peace to you,

Joe 

[mari_et_pere]

It is obvious some Muslims (at least the ones getting all the attention) are stuck in this old time period as well.

This is very true. Not all Muslims are following the same beliefs totally. Much like Christians, they have different factions/ sects/ denominations or whatever you want to label them. They have the Sunnis, the Shiites and others. SO...it's hard for us, who aren't involved in it, to pinpoint exactly what they believe because they all don't believe the same. Just like "christians", a Baptist will give you a different set of beliefs than a Mormon for example. But like I said before, they're all in God's hands.

Matt

[gmik]

My son is taking muslim history in the middle ages at college this summer and I was looking thru some of the notes.  Lordy, very violent they were to one another.  They called christians and jews "people of the book", and were fairly tolerant- however that all changed down thru time.  Besides the koran, are the "hadith" the sayings and doings of the prophet and the "Sira" the biography of the prophet, and the"maghazi" the history of the prophet and his military battles.  All these are used in their religion, altho the koran is strictly the word of Allah

The first battle in the history of Islam is in 623CE-started as a raid on a caravan but the Meccan's responded w/ an army outnumbering the muslims 3-1.  And they won!!! they credit Angels for divine intervention. Just FYI.

[indianabob]

Gena said: "Islam is one of the many daughters of the harlot" AND "we/they too, are to come out from her"

Exactly correct.  Thank you for understanding the basics.

Bob

Pax you must have misunderstood me.  My son had a wondeful experience in Pakistan.  He loved and fellowshipped w/ the PEOPLE.

Matt, you didn't sound hateful to me.  Just calling a spade a spade.  Darren good points.

I think islam is one of the many daughters of the harlot and we are to come out from her.