Acts 9:7 and Acts 22:9 ____ Am I on the right track or way off course?

[mrl1970]

Forgive me if this subject was addressed on BT or in the forums previously as there is so much info to sift through.

There seems {at least at first glance) to be a contradiction in Acts 9:7 and Acts 22:9 as to whether or not a voice was heard. (this I believe was addressed however I do not remember a solution given) I will attempt to find the solution.

First look at the following verses.


1 Corinthians 15:44-46 (King James Version)

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Notice the physical comes first then the spiritual.
There are other examples of this such as Galatians 3:23-25 where the physical law comes first then the spiritual law by faith.

Galatians 3:23-25 (King James Version)
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Also we learn the physical stories first then their spiritual meaning.

I will use this to attempt to prove that there is not a contradiction in  Acts 9:7 and Acts 22:9 by using this concept. So as not to add to God's Word I will use brackets

Acts 9:7 (King James Version

7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a [physical] voice, but seeing no [spiritual] man.

Acts 22:9 (King James Version)

9And they that were with me saw indeed the [physical] light, and were afraid; but they heard not the [spiritual] voice of him that spake to me.


Am I on the right track or way off course?

[skydreamers]

Wow, I don't know if you are on the right track or not, but I've wondered in the past about this seeming contradiction and how it could be reconciled.  Your insight may very well be the key.  It's late here for me so I will study this further when time permits, but at first glance, I'd say this is a more than plausible explanation.  Way cool ...thanks so much for sharing!

Peace,
Diana

[Kat]

Hi mrl,

I don't recall this scripture being discussed before.  Neither could I find where Ray had addressed this either.

I do believe you have come to a good understanding of this.
In looking through the different translations I noticed that 'hear' in Acts 22:9, was also tranlated 'understand.'

NASB
Act 22:9  "And those who were with me saw the light, to be sure, but did not understand the voice of the One who was speaking to me.

Strong's
hear
G191
akouō
A primary verb; to hear (in various senses): - give (in the) audience (of), come (to the ears), ([shall]) hear (-er, -ken), be noised, be reported, understand.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[jackson]

Hi MRL,

Loved your post.  I think you are on the right track.  I do see it a little different though.

As you correctly pointed out the physical always comes before the spiritual.  So how would it be if we take Acts 9:7 and apply the physical nature to the entire verse.  Conversly, Acts 22:9 could be read with a totally spiritual mind set.



Acts 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a (physical) voice, but seeing no (physical) man.

   They were given ears to hear this voice, but not eyes to disern its origen (thats kind of a metaphore for many people today wouldn't you say).

Acts 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed a (spiritual) light, and were afraid; but they heard not the (spiritual) voice of him that spoke to me.

    I think the spiritual light here refers to the new life given to Paul.  The men could sense a change in him, indeed they saw him change.  And yet they were not spiritually minded men and could not hear (or did not understand) that the voice (the force behind this magnificent transformation) was of Jesus (the Holy Spirit).

This is just the way I have always read it.  Hope it helps.

In His Grace,
Jackson

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello mrl1970

Firstly, the scriptures do not contradict. God does not contradict Himself. We know that part so when an appearance of a contradiction surfaces we have to go to the next step and that is as Ray says, "notice the words".

So from that basis the first thing that appeared to me is the difference in RELATIONSHIP to Saul between those who heard and those who saw.

Act 9 : 7  The men WITH Saul ( who were ACCOMPANYING him, which journeyed WITH him, were TRAVELLING with him) stood speechless......

Act 22 :9 Now the men who were WITH ME ( those BEING WITH ME not just travelling with Saul but WITH SAUL) .....THEY SAW the light.

From the Expanded Edition Strong's Complete word study.

Light 5457 111 figuratively, moral and spiritual light and knowledge which enlightens the mind, soul or conscience; including also the idea of moral goodness, purity and holiness, and of consequent reward and happiness. (A) Generally, true knowledge of God and spiritual things......(B)  By metonymy, the author or dispenser of moral and spiritual light, a moral teacher; ....used especially of Jesus as the great Teacher and Saviour of the world...

Those who were not just casually traveling with Saul but those who were WITH HIM saw the light.

Those who were accompanying Saul, heard the voice.

Again quoting from the Expanded Edition Strong's Complete word study.

Voice 5456 ...noise, sound.. 91) Generally, spoken of things of a trumpet or other instrument...the wind...rushing wings...chariots, waters...(ll) Specifically the voice or cry of a person.....

So for me to SEE the LIGHT is more intimate an experience. To both see and hear of course is the complete experience as in let those who have eyes see and those who have ears hear.

To add on to what you observe....perhaps we hear before we see...as in "faith comes by HEARING"... and then we get to both see and hear IF CHOSEN!

I am sure there is MUCH more to this!

Peace be to you

Arcturus

[YellowStone]

Hi Mrl1970,

I think this "seemingly" contradiction can be easily dispelled when viewed as a whole.

Acts 9:3-7 [NIV]
3 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"

5 "Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked.

"I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. 6 "Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."

7 The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone (No mention of not seeing the light, the text states not seing anyone. Upon hearing the voice, would they not have expected to?)


Acts 22:6-9 [NIV]

6 "About noon as I came near Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me. 7 I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me, 'Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me?'

8 " 'Who are you, Lord?' I asked.

" 'I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting,' he replied. 9 My companions saw the light (Saul is not saying that they seen a person, just the light. I do not see a contradiction) but they did not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me.

I agree with Kat on the rendering of the Greek word: akouō [G391] to understand, perceive the sense of what is said

It would appear contextually that when Christ spoke to Saul on the road, he did so in a manner that only Saul could understand; His message was for Saul only.

Christ spoke similarly in Matthew

Mat 13:9  [NIV]
Who hath ears to hear, let him hear akouō [G391] [understand]. (Christ gave Saul the ears of discernment, not his travelling companions)

This should not sound to unusual because Christ seemed to be able to materialize in any form He wanted, following His ressurecion.

John 20:10-16 [NIV]
10 Then the disciples went back to their homes, 11 but Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb 12 and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus' body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot.

13 They asked her, "Woman, why are you crying?"

"They have taken my Lord away," she said, "and I don't know where they have put him." 14 At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.

15 "Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?"

Thinking he was the gardener, she said, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him."

16 Jesus said to her, "Mary."

She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, "Rabboni!" (which means Teacher).


As a side note, it would appear that the events as recorded in Acts 9:7 were the fulfillment of Daniels vision / prophecy in Daniel 10:7.

Daniel 10:7-9
7 I, Daniel, was the only one who saw the vision; the men with me did not see it, but such terror overwhelmed them that they fled and hid themselves. 8 So I was left alone, gazing at this great vision; I had no strength left, my face turned deathly pale and I was helpless. 9 Then I heard him speaking, and as I listened to him, I fell into a deep sleep, my face to the ground.

Well this is how I have been given to understand.

Comments welcome,

Love to you in Christ,
Darren

[Deborah-Leigh]

Upon reflection of this topic and what has been posted :

Looking into the Message Translation. Acts 9 : 7 does not say that the companions did not see the light. It simply says "they could hear the sound, but couldn't see anyone...."

I have also noticed that Acts 9 : 7 ...and Acts 22:9 is written for a different audience where Paul is saying "My companions saw the light but they did not hear the conversation."

So I believe that they all saw the light and did not comprehend the conversation or discern the dialogue coming to Saul from Christ.

I will need to do a deeper study of the words regarding the companions.

Peace to you

Arcturus    

[jER]

My sheep hear my voice...(John 10:27)...every one that is of the truth, hears my voice (John 18:37)

And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying...(Acts 9:4)

Christ's voice...the truth!

-Jer

[Deborah-Leigh]

Good point Jer!

Ray says : God's truths are like treasures hidden in a field.

Your observations mrl1970 I found are mirrored in Rays Truth number on from his paper one Twelve God given truths to understand His Word.

Ray says " The sequence of God's plan of salvation for manking is most important - First is the physical and then comes the spiritual.

Ray calls this a PRINCIPLE OF SCRIPTURE!

So I think you've got your principles straight mrl1970. Hang on to that!

I still have not been able to do my word study on companions yet. If I find any treasures I will get back to you to ask you all to help me to dig some more.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[mrl1970]

Perhaps the hidden message is the unbeliever the called the chosen. Though in Acts 9:15 it clearly states he is chosen.
He was journeying to Demascus to get permision to persecute Christians.
He was not a believer at this point. When the light shone around him Jesus made him believe.
He was blind and led by the hand to Demascus where his eyesight was to be restored and to be filled with the Holy Spirit. At this point he was clearly chosen. Also it says in Acts 9:16 that he will suffer for Christ's name sake. This of course his chastisement. At least this is the way I'm seeing it.

I think it  shows the order of the life of a believer. At least this is the way I'm seeing it.

Any comments?

[Deborah-Leigh]

When God chooses you who can undo that? Well noted Mrl1970.

I have finally been able to access the tools I use to analyze the Scriptures. My computer that has the data base for this has just been reconnected and I found what I was suspecting to be confirmend!

Here it is.
Acts 9:7 the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer translates that the men journeying with Saul as sunodeuO.
This word is used only once according to the Analyzer.

Acts 22:9 refers to the men together with Paul as "THE-ones YET TOGETHER to-ME and this wording appears to refer to a much more intimate association to Paul.

Here is how the Interlinear translates Act 22 : 9 THE-ones YET TOGETHER  to-ME BEING THE INDEED LIGHT  gaze THE YET SOUND NOT THEY-HEAR OF-the  ONE-talking TO-me. / the-ones yet together to-me being the indeed light gaze the yet voice not they-hear of-the one- speaking to-me.

The translation analysis of the Greek words de sun egO eimi/ YET TOGETHER to-ME have many other places in the scriptures where they appear and confirm deeper RELATIONSHIP. It will take MONTHS to go through them all!

This is just scratching the surface! E-sword shows up the difference with much greater simplicity.

Acts 22 :9 And they that were WITH4862 = E-Sword/ A primary preposition denoting UNION; WITH or TOGETHER that is by ASSOCIATION....

Acts 9 :7 And the men which journeyed WITH 4922 = E-Sword/ ...to TRAVEL in compay WITH; journey with.

So YES mrl1970 I believe this shows the order of the life of the believer. Are we simply on a journey with Christ or are we in ASSOCIATION WITH HIM?

Peace be to you

Arcturus

[pylady]

Hi Arcturus,

Forgive me for getting off topic.  But you said you had not been able to do a word search on "companions" yet.  Please, what is companions?

Cindy

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Cindy

The travelling companions of Saul/Paul are both mentioned in Acts 9:7 and Acts 22:9.

Earlier on in this thread I suggested a word study on the Greek words that relate directly to the translations we have in our Bibles from both Acts 9 and 7 to compair. As it happened, at that time, I was not able to do the study as my computer that carries the data was off line.

So if you look back in this thread you may be able to pick up from where I continued once my computer came back on line today  Also by reading every ones posts you will see how the conversation has developed up to now which could also make things a lot clearer for you! There are many gems in this thread!

I did write the following but was looking for scripture back up which I did not have then and now do : Those who were not just casually traveling with Saul but those who were WITH HIM saw the light.

I hope this explanation helps! If not, please get back to us.

Peace be to you

Arcturus

[skydreamers]

I think it  shows the order of the life of a believer.

Hi mrl1970,

Yes It think you may be right about that.

Acts 9:3-9
3  But in going, it happened as he drew near to Damascus, even suddenly a light from the heaven shone around him.

This could be the point at which you are called, because directly after this Paul falls to the earth (the earth being the church...and the church is where Jesus is being persecuted, in a sense, because he is not being worshiped in spirit and in truth.  He is being blasphemed as a God who tortures his children, among other things...)....this is the "falling away", leaving your first love...

4  And he fell to the earth and heard a voice saying to him, Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me?

Those that are called in the church, do not truly know Jesus...

5  And he said, Who are you, lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom you persecute. It is hard for you to kick against the goads...

7  And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, indeed hearing a voice but seeing no one.

Those with you (in the church) hear a voice (the voice which called them into the church...but they remain in the physical, they cannot "see" the spiritual Jesus.)

Then Saul is lifted UP from the earth (the church)...now is when God takes you out of the church...and your eyes are opened...but opened to what? because he also still "sees" no one. 
 
8  And Saul was lifted up from the earth, his eyes were opened, but he saw no one. But they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus.

It looks like he cannot see completely....he saw no one....so he doesn't spiritually yet see Jesus...this is just the beginning where his eyes have been opened to the fact that he has been persecuting Jesus his Lord!  As we know, finding out that you've been under the influence of false doctrines is just the beginning. There is so much more to know about our Lord.  I've been repenting of false doctrines for the last two years, all the while getting closer to understanding Jesus.  But even then, you keep finding out how little you know...I'm thinking of this last conference where Ray was speaking about Jesus...wow...that was yet another eye opener...

Then comes something interesting:

9  And he was three days not seeing, and did not eat or drink.

Is this a period of time we do not spiritually eat or drink of Jesus??  why?  Why is there this three days....3 days in the belly of the whale....3 days in the tomb?  There maybe is a period of time between being part of the many, the multitude, and the transition to being a part of the chosen:

Matthew 15:32
32  Then Jesus called his disciples unto him, and said, I have compassion on the multitude, because they continue with me now three days, and have nothing to eat: and I will not send them away fasting, lest they faint in the way.

After this is when God uses a disciple to open Saul's eyes....

Acts 9:10-20
10  And there was a certain disciple in Damascus named Ananias. And the Lord said to him in a vision, Ananias! And he said, Behold me, Lord.
11  And the Lord said to him, Arise and go into the street which is called Straight (Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.)

and inquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus. For behold, he is praying,
12  and has seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him so that he might receive his sight.
13  And Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard from many of this man, how many evil things he has done to Your saints at Jerusalem.
14  And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your Name.
15  But the Lord said to him, Go! For this one is a chosen vessel to Me, to bear My name before nations and kings and the sons of Israel.
16  For I will show him what great things he must suffer for My name's sake.
17  And Ananias went and entered into the house. And putting his hands on him, he said, Brother Saul, the Lord, Jesus, who appeared to you in the way in which you came, has sent me to you that you might see and be filled with the Holy Spirit.
18  And instantly scales as it were fell from his eyes, and he instantly saw again. And rising up, he was baptized.
19  And taking food, he was strengthened. And Saul was certain days with the disciples in Damascus.
20  And immediately he proclaimed Christ in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God.





This has become a fascinating study for me!

Peace,
Diana

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Diana

I got a few things from you post. Thank you for sharing. I would like to put a few thoughts forward that are perhaps another way of looking at the same thing. You say : It looks like he cannot see completely....he saw no one....so he doesn't spiritually yet see Jesus..

To add to that observation Paul says to the Ephesians 3 : 16 May He grant you out of the rich treasury of His glory to BE STRENGTHENED ( a PROCESS!) AND REINFORCED WITH MIGHTY POWER in the inner man by the Spirit Himself indwelling your innermost being and personality. 17. May Christ through your faith actually dwell, SETTLE DOWN (a PROCESS!) abide, make His permanent home in your hearts! May you be rooted deep in love and founded (a PROCESS AGAIN!....BEING FOUNDED) securely on love 18 That you may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, length, and depth and height;  19. That you may recall COME TO KNOW ( a PROCESS of COMING to know) practically, through experience for yourselves the love of Christ.......

Eph 4 : 12 His intention was the perfecting (PERFECTING.....a PROCESS_) and the full equipping (a PROCESS AGAIN) of the saints that they should do the work of ministering toward BUILDING UP
(A PROCESS! _.....Christs body 13 That it might DEVELOPE until we all attain (ATTAIN....a process) oneness in the faith and in the comprehension of the full and accurate knowledge of the Son of God....

You observe Diana : Is this a period of time we do not spiritually eat or drink of Jesus??  why?  Why is there this three days....3 days in the belly of the whale....3 days in the tomb?  There maybe is a period of time between being part of the many, the multitude, and the transition to being a part of the chosen:

My thoughts as I read this turned to Isaiah and Saul who both went out of society ahead of returning to their prospective ministries. Saul in his transition spent three years and so did Isaiah if I am not mistaken. In this time they did not eat again of false teachings or the food of Mystery Babylonian Paganism and Heresy. The carnal mind was starved of its usual food and drink. So I think the meaning here could refer to a change of diet! starting with DETOX

Peace be to you

Arcturus

[hebrewroots98]

Wow, what beauty there is in the deepness and in the richness of HIS Glories!!!  Amen brothers and sisters!!!  What glorious treasures that are coming to the surface in this wonderful thread! 

I have contemplated on how the PROCESS actually has taken place (and still is) in my life and it is quite interesting.  I remember coming out of the church and THEN someone shared with me of there being no Hell...for 3 days after I had read THE TRUTHS for the first time, I just sat in my chair speechless and in utter amazement as I was thinking on the new revelations that were swimming in my head that I had just been given...I could not even put my new thoughts into words for 3 days in order to share them w/ my DH, b/c it was too shocking and too transforming for me  to put into words at that time. 

(I remember all the while thinking...'why me Lord?'  Why am I seeing these wonderful truths and no one else that I know of are seeing these things (except for the person whom shared them with me.)  I just sat and contemplated my whole life of being in the church up to that point and it took just sitting and being still and quiet for me to go through (in my mind and heart) of all of the things that I had been taught and I was not even really thinking about Yeshua...just thinking about all the errors that I needed TO LET GO OF...(THIS WAS THE VERY BEGINNING OF A PURGING PROCESSESS FOR ME) ....AND THEN I FINALLY SAW THE LIGHT OF THE TRUTH...AND THEN I SAW YESHUA AS THE AUTHOR OF THIS WHOLE PROCESS.  Then the shock turned into powerful enlightenment, as well as a new me! 

So, yes, there is an essential need for going through those 3 days of being blinded so that we can  just sit in awe of THE SPIRITUAL TRUTHS OF OUR NEW LIVES IN CHRIST...it is a time to bury the old man and be baptised in the Spirit of Christ for the first time in our lives, thus after 3 days we have become new creatures in HIM.   ...kind of like the cacoon that turns into a beautiful butterfly....

thank you all for the new and deeper insights that this thread has brought out...