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Author Topic: Does God have free will ?  (Read 3083 times)

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mrsnacks

  • Guest
Does God have free will ?
« on: May 30, 2007, 03:00:45 PM »

I have heard it said that God is the only one who has free will. Is that true ?
I have a hard time with that. God 's choices aren't really free of causation are they?
God cannot lie. God cannot do evil. God could be faced with two choices but is not free to make the evil choice. It would be like someone asking me to make the choice to fly to Alaska via jet or beam myself ( Star Trek method ) there. I am not able to beam myself there in a million years so I can't exercise my free will by choosing that option. It is impossible so I really have one choice. So is it the same  with God ? He cannot lie or do evil or do something against His nature.   

I do realize I did start up quite a few posts. I just want to stir up some new discussions here. Hope you don't mind.
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Does God have free will ?
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2007, 05:40:42 PM »


Hi mrsnacks,

I would say the only way that God has limitation,
is if they are self imposted  :)

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Does God have free will ?
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2007, 06:12:00 PM »



God is the SOURCE of EVERYTHING and EVERYONE. I think that puts God the Father into a different league to how we think, reason and understand!

I also think what Kat says is most applicable and why would God limit His limitless, omnipotence, omnipresence and omniscience! WHY DO THAT?  ;D (Rhetorical question only!) ;D

Peace to you

Arcturus
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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: Does God have free will ?
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2007, 06:56:26 PM »

MrSnacks,

1Cr 14:33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints,  

Think for a moment of the significance of the above verse. :)

Look out into a star filled night sky and marvel at what is unseen in the seemingly endless chaos of space. Everything is in place, and man with his puny wisdom can measure the distance to objects in space millions of light years away.

Look also at a tiny living cell, this minuscule little form of life is the envy of man, for man cannot produce a factory capable of self reproduction, nor with it's complexity of design.

God was Free to create all of this, is He not also free to let it go? :)

Yet, we read that God is a God of Order, and we have proof of this.

1Cr 3:6  I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow.

We see here a natural progression, first the planting, then the watering, then growth.

Mal 3:6 For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. 

I do not think that we should be to worried if God is free to change or not, not when He clearly states that He will NOT change. :)

Love to you in Christ,

Darren
 

 


« Last Edit: May 31, 2007, 09:09:49 PM by YellowStone »
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mari_et_pere

  • Guest
Re: Does God have free will ?
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2007, 11:43:03 AM »

Quote
God cannot lie. God cannot do evil. God could be faced with two choices but is not free to make the evil choice.

I'm not saying that God DOES evil by saying this, so don't jump me okay? LOL. But don't forget who created evil in the first place. And when our carnal minds THINK He is doing evil, remember that it's just our limited understanding that makes it seem that way.

Realistically, God does do evil in a way, for He brings about consequences for evil to influence our lives and for our lives to produce evil. See? But I definitely agree with Kat; God's limitations are self-imposed.

Peace,

Matt
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mrsnacks

  • Guest
Re: Does God have free will ?
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2007, 08:46:31 PM »

I recall an apologetics class I took years ago and the professor said that God didn't create evil, but He created the possibility of evil. Evil is not a thing. It is a
privation.
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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: Does God have free will ?
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2007, 09:05:07 PM »

MrSnacks,

You wrote: "Evil is not a thing. It is a privation. "

Not sure from the context whether these are your thoughts or not, but seeing as how you ended on that note....  :)

Maybe then you wouldn't mind explaing the words of God. :)

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Lamentations 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

Oh and not fully understanding the use of the word privation I looked it up to learn. ;)

  Quick definitions (privation)

noun:   act of depriving someone of food or money or rights (Example: "Nutritional privation") onelook.com

Seems to me that the word does not apply in this context. Besides it is pretty clear, that God did indeed create "Evil."  :D

By no means is this an attack on you. :)

Love in Christ,
Darren
« Last Edit: May 31, 2007, 09:08:14 PM by YellowStone »
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GODSown1

  • Guest
Re: Does God have free will ?
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2007, 09:55:15 PM »

Hey Hi all,
            Well I jus wanted 2 say it is defintly GODS WilL, lastnite mE & my Wife actually sat & talked (fellowshipped), wow! I just Thank GOD so much, az my Wife usually would say aw! darln I really dont wana Hear it so I wouldnt go der. But! lastnite she just came out wit all dez Questions & man! I just so Thank da LORD! I could answer dem (even Kat wouldntve answered dem n e betta lol!) (muchLOVE! Kat :)). I just referred her back 2 da old Testiment & every fing d@ went on in dem daeZ! combined wit all d@ goes on bhind da scenes JUST! hw much GOD!!! really!!!! is in Control!!!!!!, Then & NOW!!!, & I really believe it really started Hitting! home, Thank YOU FATHER muuaaahhhh!!!!!, I em so ova da moon bcoZ! everyfing! is so bcummn Klearer!!! every second & minute of da day! n da mighty! name of our LORD! & our SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST! Amen! & Amen!.
           muchLOVE!! Pera
ps. Just want 2 Thank the LORD! again! lol! muuaaahhhh!!!!!
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mrsnacks

  • Guest
Re: Does God have free will ?
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2007, 10:07:15 PM »

Hey Hi all,
            Well I jus wanted 2 say it is defintly GODS WilL, lastnite mE & my Wife actually sat & talked (fellowshipped), wow! I just Thank GOD so much, az my Wife usually would say aw! darln I really dont wana Hear it so I wouldnt go der. But! lastnite she just came out wit all dez Questions & man! I just so Thank da LORD! I could answer dem (even Kat wouldntve answered dem n e betta lol!) (muchLOVE! Kat :)). I just referred her back 2 da old Testiment & every fing d@ went on in dem daeZ! combined wit all d@ goes on bhind da scenes JUST! hw much GOD!!! really!!!! is in Control!!!!!!, Then & NOW!!!, & I really believe it really started Hitting! home, Thank YOU FATHER muuaaahhhh!!!!!, I em so ova da moon bcoZ! everyfing! is so bcummn Klearer!!! every second & minute of da day! n da mighty! name of our LORD! & our SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST! Amen! & Amen!.
           muchLOVE!! Pera
ps. Just want 2 Thank the LORD! again! lol! muuaaahhhh!!!!!





---------------------------------------------------

What is this style of writing called. Using words like " dem" and "da " etc. Is this a young thing? ???
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GODSown1

  • Guest
Re: Does God have free will ?
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2007, 10:35:49 PM »

lol! :D :D,
             NO! its da slow! typing fing lol!, az long az U can undastan it I thort is da Meat of it aint it?? lol! I Pray GOD BlesSes U wit undastandn of ma styLZ! of exspresSn! lol!
             muchLOVE!! Pera :P:D:)
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gmik

  • Guest
Re: Does God have free will ?
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2007, 10:40:57 PM »

Pera, I am so happy for you.  It is the Lord's Will and His timing in all things. It is so blessed to be able to share w/ your spouse.

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GODSown1

  • Guest
Re: Does God have free will ?
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2007, 11:06:42 PM »

yeyah! Thank U Gena,
                             Thank U so much bcoz Yes it has been Hard!, But! it just takes patience!, az GODS timing is Perfect! AlwayZ!, GODBlesS! U Gena alwayZ!.
                              muchLOVE!! Pera
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mrsnacks

  • Guest
Re: Does God have free will ?
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2007, 11:18:57 PM »

This is an explanation of evil from my christian philosophy classes.

For Aquinas, God is the cause of things by causing their existence. Evil is a privation, i.e. it is the lack of some due perfection or existence in something that already has existence.

Evil is not something that has an existence of its own; rather it is a corruption of that which already exists. EVIL IS THE ABSENCE OR PRIVATION OF SOMETHING GOOD. Rot, for example, can only exist as long as the tree exists. Tooth decay can only exist as long as the tooth exists. Rust on a car and a decaying carcass illustrate the same point. Evil exists as a corruption of something good; it is a privation and does not have essence by itself. Norman Geisler tells us, "Evil is like a wound in an arm or moth-holes in a garment. It exists only in another but not in itself.

What I am saying in some circles evil is a lack of good. Evil is not a thing that can be created. I am not saying I believe that but that is the response from the Scripture you quoted stating that God created evil. They will say the correct interpretation is that God created the possibility of evil.
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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: Does God have free will ?
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2007, 11:54:06 PM »

MrSnacks,

This will end in a circle, because I could careless of what others think.  ::) I have enough trouble keeping my own thoughts in order ;D

Yet, to quote you: "They will say the correct interpretation is that God created the possibility of evil. "

And my answer to this would be a question. Did God create a smile and the associated warm feelings, a grimmace and the feelings one feels, or even a tear? If none of these can occur on their accorrd, then who then can you say created them. Was it Adam, Eve, or.....  ;D

It doesn't work like that.  :D

They smile, grimmace, yawn, sleep, ....... because something in their design, allows them too. Their ignorance is inexcusable!  8)


Rom 1:20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Rom 1:21  Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Rom 1:22  Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Yours in Christ, with Love,

Darren
« Last Edit: May 31, 2007, 11:55:02 PM by YellowStone »
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GODSown1

  • Guest
Re: Does God have free will ?
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2007, 12:07:35 AM »

Hi,
   Ive just read dis frm da "Hebrew Translation", (ISAIAH 45:7) one-forming light and one-creating darkness one-making welfare and one-creating evil I Yahweh one-doing all of these. Well dis 2 me says GOD did create evil how ever it happens, just my take on it.
    muchLOVE!! Pera
« Last Edit: June 01, 2007, 12:15:33 AM by GODSown1 »
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skydreamers

  • Guest
Re: Does God have free will ?
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2007, 01:41:34 AM »

Quote
Hey Hi all,
            Well I jus wanted 2 say it is defintly GODS WilL, lastnite mE & my Wife actually sat & talked (fellowshipped), wow! I just Thank GOD so much, az my Wife usually would say aw! darln I really dont wana Hear it so I wouldnt go der. But! lastnite she just came out wit all dez Questions & man! I just so Thank da LORD! I could answer dem (even Kat wouldntve answered dem n e betta lol!) (muchLOVE! Kat Smiley). I just referred her back 2 da old Testiment & every fing d@ went on in dem daeZ! combined wit all d@ goes on bhind da scenes JUST! hw much GOD!!! really!!!! is in Control!!!!!!, Then & NOW!!!, & I really believe it really started Hitting! home, Thank YOU FATHER muuaaahhhh!!!!!, I em so ova da moon bcoZ! everyfing! is so bcummn Klearer!!! every second & minute of da day! n da mighty! name of our LORD! & our SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST! Amen! & Amen!.
           muchLOVE!! Pera
ps. Just want 2 Thank the LORD! again! lol! muuaaahhhh!!!!!

Awesome brother!  Amen and high-fives to ya! 



It's exhilerating when we see God's power working!

Matthew 10:19-20
...take no thought how or what you shall speak; for it shall be given you in that same hour what you shall speak. For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.

God has blessed you and your wife, Praise the Almighty!! 

Peace,
Diana
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mari_et_pere

  • Guest
Re: Does God have free will ?
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2007, 03:42:37 AM »

Snacks, just a suggestion here, but remember to take the words of God over men. Your christian philosophy class couldn't hold water against what God says, IMHO. No offense bro, just reminding you of something I know that you already know.  :)

Matt
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mrsnacks

  • Guest
Re: Does God have free will ?
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2007, 06:01:23 AM »

Snacks, just a suggestion here, but remember to take the words of God over men. Your christian philosophy class couldn't hold water against what God says, IMHO. No offense bro, just reminding you of something I know that you already know.  :)

Matt



--------------------------------------------

I do agree. I was just presenting you with the response to God and evil as presented from the seminaries and this is what is being taught in Christendom. What we do need to do is present an apologetic ( defense of the gospel ) from the Greek word "apologia." Which in English is a reasoned defense as they do it in a court of law for our beliefs. Is there anything said by Aquinas is right  concerning evil ?
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skydreamers

  • Guest
Re: Does God have free will ?
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2007, 01:05:29 PM »

Quote
Evil is not something that has an existence of its own; rather it is a corruption of that which already exists. EVIL IS THE ABSENCE OR PRIVATION OF SOMETHING GOOD. Rot, for example, can only exist as long as the tree exists. Tooth decay can only exist as long as the tooth exists. Rust on a car and a decaying carcass illustrate the same point. Evil exists as a corruption of something good; it is a privation and does not have essence by itself. Norman Geisler tells us, "Evil is like a wound in an arm or moth-holes in a garment. It exists only in another but not in itself.

What do you call then that which caused the rot, tooth decay, rust and decaying carcass?  Something happened before these states to cause these states.  Not every tree rots and not every tooth decays.

Evil: Hebrew word "Ra"

BDB Definition:
1) bad, evil (adjective)
1a) bad, disagreeable, malignant
1b) bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)
1c) evil, displeasing
1d) bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)
1e) bad (of value)
1f) worse than, worst (comparison)
1g) sad, unhappy
1h) evil (hurtful)
1i) bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)
1j) bad, evil, wicked (ethically)
1j1) in general, of persons, of thoughts
1j2) deeds, actions
2) evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity (noun masculine)
2a) evil, distress, adversity
2b) evil, injury, wrong
2c) evil (ethical)
3) evil, misery, distress, injury (noun feminine)
3a) evil, misery, distress
3b) evil, injury, wrong
3c) evil (ethical)

It seems to me, since God himself is not evil, and therefore does not directly do evil, he creates a being (Satan) and uses him as an instrument to perform the necessary evil (which God does not take pleasure in but knows it is necessary).

Job 26:13
13  By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

I can't find right now where Ray talks about this, but he points out that it is God's spirit which garnished the heavens, suggesting intimacy.  But it is his hand which forms the serpent, suggesting he forms it at arms length, away from his heart.  I thought this was cool.

Peace,
Diana
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mrsnacks

  • Guest
Re: Does God have free will ?
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2007, 07:12:21 PM »

Thanks for all your comments.

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