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Jesus coming out of the Father means that Christ was created by God ?
humblebob:
Hi to all from Humble-Bob. With regard to the Trinity:
Does not Revelation chapters 1 and 2 disclose that Jesus, the Son of God, may be properly identified as the Supreme God (i.e., of equal divinity with the Father)? In Revelation 1, the Speaker addressing John identifies Himself as both "the Alpha and the Omega" (1.11) and also as He who "died, but see, I am alive forevermore" (1.18). And in 1.8, we find that "the Alpha and the Omega" is also "the Lord God" and "the Almighty." In Revelation 2.8 we find that He who "died and came to life again" is also identified as "the First and the Last." And Isaiah 44.6 identifies "the First and the Last" with "God"---not just "a God" but as the one, unique, unparalleled, unchallenged, unduplicated God.
Moreover, if the Greek in John 1.1 can bear no other construction other than that "God was the Word," then does this verse not confer Deity upon the Son of God? If Jesus had not thought of Himself as God, would He not have corrected those who worshipped Him, and corrected those who thought He was equating Himself with God?
I see no conflict in assigning full deity to the Son of God, and also embracing 1 Corinthians 11.3 and 15.28, which speak of distinctions in the offices of the Father and Son. In our effort to honor the distinctions between Father and Son in their respective roles, I would rather not jettison clear references to the divinity of the Son. Until I can see clear exegetical reasons for rejecting the divinity of Christ (as opposed to purely philosophical arguments against His deity), I would rather accept His divinity AND His distinctions in office from the Father. I don't believe these two positions are mutually exclusive.
Blessings to you all. Humble-Bob.
Kat:
Hi Bob,
--- Quote ---I would rather not jettison clear references to the divinity of the Son. Until I can see clear exegetical reasons for rejecting the divinity of Christ (as opposed to purely philosophical arguments against His deity), I would rather accept His divinity AND His distinctions in office from the Father. I don't believe these two positions are mutually exclusive.
--- End quote ---
I'm not sure why you think anyone here does not believe in the divinity of Christ ???
Here are a couple of emails from Ray, where he shows Jesus is indeed God and this is Ray's teaching all through his articles and audios. This is a very basic belief, that I'm sure we all hold.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4519.0.html ------
Dear Mark:
Two weeks ago I conducted a Bible Conference in Nashville in which I spent a good deal of time discussing just Who and What Jesus Christ is. Jesus in indeed the "God" of the Old Testament. What you and most of Christendom do not understand, is that "God" is neither the first name nor the last name of His Father. Thomas called Jesus "MY GOD" (John 20:28). Jesus emphatically declared that no man at any time has ever seen or HEAR THE VOICE of God His Father (John 1:18; 5:37; Matt. 11:27; John 6:46; Luke 10:22, etc., etc.)
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3965.0.html
Okay, listen: "GOD IS ONE." Now I have a Scripture for that (Gal. 3:20). And this, "Hear O Israel, the Lord our GOD IS ONE LORD" (Deut. 6:4). But Jesus is called "God" also, John 8:28, Heb. 1:8, etc. But then Jesus said this: "I [one] and My Father [two] are ONE" Now how do you figure that? Come to our Nashville Conference and I will spell it out in great detail.
My first morning lecture will be: IS "THE LORD THY GOD" OF THE OLD TESTAMENT THE SAME IN THE NEW TESTAMENT? And this thought: Is "THE LORD said unto MY Lord..." of the Old Testament (Psalm 110:1) the same as "The Lord said unto my Lord..." of the New Testament (Matt. 22:44)? And just who are these two "Lords?" Are you sure? Can you prove it? And in as much as no man has EVER seen the Father and no man has EVER heard His voice, EVER; what do we really know about Him? Do we have record of God the Father every saying anything, ANYWHERE? Where? I think you will be in for a shock. You better make plans for Nashville.
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mercy, peace, and love
Kat
Craig:
??? ???
I would like to know the answer to that question too Kat. Why would you think that Ray or anyone on this forum rejects the divinity of Christ? Christ is God and of the Father. And Ray states that many, many times.
Perhaps you may want to read some of Ray's writings again. I know when I started out, I missed some pretty key points the first time around.
Blessings
Craig
hillsbororiver:
From: Is God a Closed TRINITY or an Open FAMILY?
http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html
Who and What is Jesus Christ?
Jesus Christ IS A MAN! "For there is ONE GOD, and ONE MEDIATOR of God and mankind, A MAN, Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).
"Thou art the Christ, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD" (Mat. 16:16).
"Christ, Who is the IMAGE of the invisible God" (II Cor. 4:4).
"The Lord Jesus Christ, the SON OF THE FATHER" (II Jn 3).
"The BEGINNING of the creation of God" (Rev. 3:14 JKV)
"God’s CREATIVE ORIGINAL" (Rev. 3:14 CLNT).
"If God were your Father, you would have loved Me. For OUT OF GOD I CAME FORTH and am arriving" (John 8:42).
"Nor Jesus said to him, Why are you terming Me good? No one is good except ONE, GOD" (Mark 10:18).
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward God, and God was the Word" (John 1:1). (This is the proper order of the Greek words. Jesus is the Logos or Spokesman of God).
I believe most can see from the above Scriptures that there are numerous and fundamental differences between the Father and Jesus the Son. However, there are still reasons to ask whether or not Jesus Christ, the Son of God the Father, is not also "God.?" Is Christ for example, not worthy our worship? Dare we worship any but "God?" And if Christ is indeed "God," when isn’t He of the very same status, rank, authority, etc., as His Father? Good questions. Let’s take them one at a time.
Is Christ God? YES HE IS!
"Yet to the Son [this is GOD speaking]: ‘Thy throne, O GOD, is for the eon of the eon..." (Heb. 1:8).
And also:
Who [Jesus], being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging [taking by force or plundering] to be EQUAL WITH GOD" (Phil. 2:6).
Is Christ worthy of worship? YES HE IS!
"And lo! A leper, coming to Him, WORSHIPED Him, saying..." (Mat. 8:2),
"lo! One approaching Him [Jesus], a chief, WORSHIPED Him..." (Mat. 9:18),
"Now those in the ship WORSHIP Him, saying, ‘truly, God’s Son art Thou!’"
"Yet she, coming, WORSHIPS Him, saying, ‘Lord, help me!’" (Mat. 15:25).
So Christ is called "God," and did not consider it pillaging to be "equal" with God, and was often "worshiped." So surely, even if Christ is not the third person of a trinity, He must at least be the second person of a duet! SURELY, HE IS NOT! Let me explain.
Jesus IS God! True, but this fact does NOT make Him the FATHER! Let us always read and believe the Scriptures. The English word "God" is translated from the Greek word Theos which means PLACER or DISPOSER. ANYONE to whom the Father gives such an office of "placer or disposer" is a God! Notice what God says in Psalm 82:6,
"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."
Jesus explains this verse for us:
"Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not written in your law, that ‘I say you are gods’? If He said those were gods, to whom the word of God came [and the scripture can not be annulled], are you saying to Him Whom the Father hallows and dispatches into the world that You are blaspheming,’ seeing that I said, ‘Son of God am I’? If I am not doing My Father’s works, do not believe Me. Yet if I am doing them, and if ever you are not believing Me, be believing the works, that you may be knowing and believing that in Me is the Father, and I am in the Father."
Okay then, let’s notice a few very important points. Jesus never came out and said "I AM GOD!" He always called Himself, "The Son OF God." Recall that Jesus did not consider it "pillaging" to be equal with God. That is, he didn’t need to steal, or take His office by FORCE, because His God, the Father, GAVE ALL THINGS TO HIM FREELY! Though Jesus is certainly "God," we must always remember that everything that made Him "God" (like His Father), WAS GIVEN TO HIM! Is there anyone who would suggest that someone GAVE God the Father all that He possesses? I think not. There is clearly a distinction--we have a "Father" and a "Son," NOT two equal Gods of a so-called trinity.
Notice that Jesus always acknowledges His subjection to His Father:
"Jesus, being aware that the Father has GIVEN ALL INTO HIS HANDS, and that He came out FROM God and is going away TO God" (John 13:3).
"Now the Father, remaining in Me, He IS DOING HIS WORKS" (John 14:10).
"And the word which you are hearing is NOT Mine, but the Father’s Who sends me" (John 14:24).
"I am going to the Father, for THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I" (John 14:28).
"Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, THE SON HIMSELF ALSO SHALL BE SUBJECTED TO HIM Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all" (I Cor. 15:28).
These Scriptures are clear, and there are many more like this. The Father is GREATER than His Son, and the Son will ALWAYS be subjected to His Father. They are NOT two, coequal Gods of a fabled trinity. They are "Father and Son." They are "FAMILY!" And the "spirit of God" is just that, the spirit "OF" God, not "the spirit God." And Jesus Christ has this SAME SPIRIT in Himself also. And it is THIS VERY SPIRIT that God the Father gives to US through His Son, Jesus Christ. It is not difficult to understand if one will simply believe the Scriptures.
Again, I want everyone to take note that when Christ speaks of the close relationship between Himself and His Father, He NEVER includes the "holy spirit" into that relationship! This is surely not an oversight on Christ’s part.
Our Lord gives us a beautiful metaphor in these same chapters of John. Jesus says:
"I am the true Grapevine, and My father is the Farmer... I am the Grapevine. You are the branches" (John 15:1 & 5).
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