Christ's death and his spirit

[rocky]

Prior to coming to earth in a fleshly body, Christ was alive with God.  He thot, moved, reacted, and created.  He was with the Father and was the Word.  

When he came to earth, what happened to Christ the spirit?

Is this the same spirit that returned to God the father at his death?

[nightmare sasuke]

I'm not sure if there are any scriptures that can answer your question, but the way I see it is, Christ had a spiritual body before his human birth, the Father transferred that spiritual body into Christ's flesh body and it became a regular spirit, meaning when Christ died, he died like a normal humanâ€"his spirit returned to the Father, his soul went to the unseen. When he was resurrected, he was resurrected in a spiritual body, meaning he became the way he was before his birth. Not sure if I'm right. I don't think there is a way to answer this question without opinion.

[ciy]

The whole bible answers this question.  Christ was slain before the foundation of the earth.  He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.  He is a quickening spirit.  The spirit of Christ that is in you is the exact same Christ that was in Jesus 2000 years ago.  No different.  The flesh will profit you nothing.   It is the spirit that gives life.  The zoe life Jesus talked about is the life you live when you realize that God really is not a respecter of persons, and the spirit that is in you is the Christ, the anointed one, that was in Jesus.  We are all Kings in our Father's palace and until we come close to God with our hearts and not just our mouths, we will realize this.  He came to His own and His own received Him not, but to whoever will receive Him to them gave he power to become Sons of God.  Do not take the Name in vain.  If you are not ready to start the process of becoming the exact image of Jesus, then do not take the Lord's name in vain.
The truth is pretty powerful isn't it.
It is written.
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

What is the Word?  It is God according to John 1:1.  If the Word which is God Almighty has come to you and scripture cannot be broken then what, and who are you?

CIY

[chrissiela]

Jesus is not the Father, but He "came OUT FROM the Father". They are one and they share the same spirit.

As I see it, when Christ was born into the flesh, God breathed life (His spirit) into Him - just as He breathes life (His spirit) into each and every one of us. (We are His "offspring".)  The difference is... is that Christ received the FULLNESS of His spirit. The fullness of the Father dwelled in Him bodily until His death on the cross ("Why has thou forsaken me?")

Then when Christ died His physical death, His spirit (breathe of life, not unlike the breath of life that we all have) went back to the Father and He died.

When He rose from the dead, He went back to the Father and they are now ONE again. That is why "another comforter" comes to us in the form of the Holy Spirit, which is BOTH the Father AND the Son).

When we die to the flesh and receive spiritual LIFE (HIS Life in us) we receive that Holy Spirit - both the Father and the Son. When we die a physical death our spirit (and His Holy Spirit, both of which come from the Father) returns back to the Father.... just as it was when Jesus died.

When we are resurrected and the Father breathes life back into our soul He will again put His Holy Spirit into us, the fulness thereof - of the Father and the Son... in ALL ... making Him "all in all".

I hope I said that as clearly as I am thinking it. It's not always easy to explain it in words, though it is clear in my thinking.

Chrissie

[rocky]

Jesus is not the Father, but He "came OUT FROM the Father". They are one and they share the same spirit.

As I see it, when Christ was born into the flesh, God breathed life (His spirit) into Him - just as He breathes life (His spirit) into each and every one of us. (We are His "offspring".)  The difference is... is that Christ received the FULLNESS of His spirit. The fullness of the Father dwelled in Him bodily until His death on the cross ("Why has thou forsaken me?")

Then when Christ died His physical death, His spirit (breathe of life, not unlike the breath of life that we all have) went back to the Father and He died.

When He rose from the dead, He went back to the Father and they are now ONE again. That is why "another comforter" comes to us in the form of the Holy Spirit, which is BOTH the Father AND the Son).

When we die to the flesh and receive spiritual LIFE (HIS Life in us) we receive that Holy Spirit - both the Father and the Son. When we die a physical death our spirit (and His Holy Spirit, both of which come from the Father) returns back to the Father.... just as it was when Jesus died.

When we are resurrected and the Father breathes life back into our soul He will again put His Holy Spirit into us, the fulness thereof - of the Father and the Son... in ALL ... making Him "all in all".

I hope I said that as clearly as I am thinking it. It's not always easy to explain it in words, though it is clear in my thinking.

Chrissie

This whole subject confuses me.  Are you saying that the spirit breathed into Christ in the flesh, was not the same spirit/Christ that was with the Father before coming in the flesh?

Wasn't Christ a seperate entity from the father in "heaven" prior to coming in the flesh, even though still one with the father, just as husband and wife are one, yet seperate?

Why didn't the spirit when returned to the father at Christ's crucifixion, become the same spirit/Christ as before he came in the flesh?  

Ahhh, I don't understand this.  any help would be great.

[chrissiela]

Rocky,

Sorry if I am just confusing you; I know how hard it can be to understand and while I think that I do understand it, I cannot "guarantee" that I understand it properly or completely. And I am certainly not at all confident in my ability to 'verbalize' it well.

But, no I do not see Christ as being "separate" from the Father. I see them as ONE. Christ is the WORD of God made flesh. The best way that I can see it and understand it is that God SPOKE (His "word") and by/through His "Word" (which became Christ in the flesh) all things were created.

At the time that Christ came in the flesh, He "came OUT FROM" the Father... and at the time that He died He "returned TO" to the Father and the glory that He had with the Father before the world was.

In this, I think there is a distrinction between the Father and the Son, in that the Son is not the Father; He is the Word of God and that which "came out of" God to dwell among men and reveal the Father to His creation... He being the only and express image of the Father. But also one with the Father.

I know, it's like talking in circles....  :shock:  :?

Everything that IS - things that we see and don't see - were created by God through His Word, manifest to us in the flesh as Christ. The things that DO appear were created from things that DO NOT appear (things invisible).

As best as I can see it right now, ALL things 'came out from' God the Father  (who ONLY is invisible and eternal). This is how we are His "offspring" and how we can be called "gods" and why it is that "IN HIM we live and move and have our being".

We do not all have His Holy Spirit, but we are ALL His creation and we all have His 'breathe' of life in us - that makes us a living soul.

When we die our spirit (which came FROM Him) returns to Him. And in the end ALL will be recipients of ALL that the Father has to give and He will be "all in all"...  giving us 'more' (if you will) of His spirit to be in us, so that we might ALL be ONE (in spirit) with Him.

But Christ is and always will be the ONLY "image" of the Father that we can see.  It is by and through Him that the Father is revealed to us.

I hope that doesn't just confuse you more....  :oops:  :oops:

Chrissie

[rvhill]

Wasn't Christ supposed to have descended into Hell before his ascension into Heaven?

It depend on the meaning of hell or hades. Was hades just death or was it something more?

[rocky]

Rocky,

Sorry if I am just confusing you; I know how hard it can be to understand and while I think that I do understand it, I cannot "guarantee" that I understand it properly or completely. And I am certainly not at all confident in my ability to 'verbalize' it well.

But, no I do not see Christ as being "separate" from the Father. I see them as ONE. Christ is the WORD of God made flesh. The best way that I can see it and understand it is that God SPOKE (His "word") and by/through His "Word" (which became Christ in the flesh) all things were created.

At the time that Christ came in the flesh, He "came OUT FROM" the Father... and at the time that He died He "returned TO" to the Father and the glory that He had with the Father before the world was.

In this, I think there is a distrinction between the Father and the Son, in that the Son is not the Father; He is the Word of God and that which "came out of" God to dwell among men and reveal the Father to His creation... He being the only and express image of the Father. But also one with the Father.

I know, it's like talking in circles....  :shock:  :?

Everything that IS - things that we see and don't see - were created by God through His Word, manifest to us in the flesh as Christ. The things that DO appear were created from things that DO NOT appear (things invisible).

As best as I can see it right now, ALL things 'came out from' God the Father  (who ONLY is invisible and eternal). This is how we are His "offspring" and how we can be called "gods" and why it is that "IN HIM we live and move and have our being".

We do not all have His Holy Spirit, but we are ALL His creation and we all have His 'breathe' of life in us - that makes us a living soul.

When we die our spirit (which came FROM Him) returns to Him. And in the end ALL will be recipients of ALL that the Father has to give and He will be "all in all"...  giving us 'more' (if you will) of His spirit to be in us, so that we might ALL be ONE (in spirit) with Him.

But Christ is and always will be the ONLY "image" of the Father that we can see.  It is by and through Him that the Father is revealed to us.

I hope that doesn't just confuse you more....  :oops:  :oops:

Chrissie

Yeah!!!  that was good, it clicked.  What you said makes sense. thanks.

[gmik]

Thanks Chrissie (again).  Good stuff!

[Michael A.]

Jesus is not the Father, but He "came OUT FROM the Father". They are one and they share the same spirit.

I understand what you're trying to say, but in fact Jesus is now the Father, or as Isaiah penned: the Everlasting Father.  This is why He now says that for us who overcome He (Jesus) will give to us to sit down in His throne with Him, even as His Father gave to His throne to Christ.  

It helps if you think in the context of FAMILY, rather than in the greek sense of "comprehension".

A mans word comes up from his heart.  Out of the abundance of a man's heart he speaks.  The thoughts and intents of the heart are communicated from one being to another with "voice" which is the animation of those thoughts and intents with "breath".

As you read the bible you will note some patterns, for example the connection of the Father with the "will of God".  Not my will...  Thy Will be done.  I came to do Thy will.  etc....

Jesus; the Word of God came forth from the depths of God's heart, and God's Breath, the Spirit of God is the One who gives Life to Jesus, and also imparts Life to whomsoever receives Jesus; God's word.  

The Father wills it, the Son creates it, the Spirit gives it life.

Man was made in the image and likeness of God.  Our word too comes from the depths of our being, where only a mans spirit knows his own thoughts and intents.  This is the realm of heaven.  When the heavens opened up to Jesus, He also then knew the thoughts of all men.  For the Spirit of God searches all things, even the thoughts of God, and knows all things, even the thoughts of all men.

Since a man's word comes forth from a man's heart, you could say that your word is "born" out of your heart.  See?  In such a manner your word is your own "son" and is sent forth to accomplish what is in your heart.  So when God created He spoke, and the word from His heart that went forth and created is Jesus, and the Holy Breath of God is what sent Jesus forth, and what gives life to Jesus, even the Life of God himself.

Do you see?

There is also a succession of Life, from Father to Son, and it is the Spirit who ensures this succession, carrying that very Life to each new generation.

But the life that the Spirit breathed into mankind is NOT the same Life that redeems man when he receives Jesus Christ.  The former is created life, the latter is God's Life; also called "Zoe".  Therefore the Life man inherits from Father when he becomes a son of God is eternal Life, and it cannot die, for it is the very Life of God Himself.

Does this help?

This is why Apostle means "sent one".  Those of us whom God personally "sends forth" are moved into action by the will of God, and the word of God and the breath of God.  

Just like a "last will and testament" the executor stands in the place of the one who passed on to carry out his will, his last will.  Angels are executors of God's word.  Jesus is The Angel of the Lord, the original executor and the captain of the army of the host of heaven.  When He came to earth it was to eredeem and restore man to God's will, to accomplish God's will.

How do you know anyone's will?  Why, by their WORD of course.  How do you know what their word means?  You must first receive their word in the same Spirit it was given in.  If you do not submit your own will to their will, then you will not be able to receive their word and understand them, according to their intent.  Then you will misunderstand them, and also their intent.  In other words, you must submit your own will to doing their will, and submit your whole heart to doing their will.  Then and only then can you truly understand their word, and also accomplish their will - but then, you also receive the power of the will to execute it.

See?

I wrote a story about this many years ago for my small children, to help them to receive the teaching about the Godhead, and about Life as God created it, and how it continues according to God's will.  

Would any one like to hear it?

[chrissiela]

Sorry Michael , but I disagree with you (somewhat). Here is why:


Heb 1:2  Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Heb 1:3  Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things BY THE WORD OF HIS POWER, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Jesus IS the “brightness of His glory and “the express image of his person�, etc. But that does not make Him the Father. He, himself, is subject to the Father.

1Co 15:28  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

When all things are subdued unto Him (Christ) then He will turn the kingdom over to the Father. He, himself being subject to the Father.

He is our "head", but He also has a head.

1Co 11:3  But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.


You said that he is the “Everlasting Father� and I agree:

Isa 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

What does that mean, though?

everlasting5703 Father

H5703
עד
‛ad
ad
From H5710; properly a (peremptory) terminus, that is, (by implication) duration, in the sense of perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either with or without a preposition): - eternity, ever (-lasting, -more), old, perpetually, + world without end.

H5710
עדה
‛âdâh
aw-daw'
A primitive root; to advance, that is, pass on or continue; causatively to remove; specifically to bedeck (that is, bring an ornament upon): - adorn, deck (self), pass by, take away.

To me, it means that He is the glory and the image of the Father (as previously stated) and the only IMAGE of the Father that we have, just as He told Philip.


Joh 14:8  Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

Joh 14:9  Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?


He is the image and the glory of the Father and He did, in fact, COME OUT FROM the Father (the Word of God made flesh) and return TO the Father (My Word shall not return void, it shall accomplish that which I please).

The Fulness of the power of the Godhead (the Father) dwelled in Christ, but Christ is a MAN. He is our LORD and our MEDIATOR, etc.

1Co 8:6  But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

There is a distinction between the Father and the Son.

1Ti 2:5  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

So I think I see what you are saying and I don’t think that we necessarily disagree (completely)…

I agree that Jesus Christ is no longer in the flesh and that He has returned TO the Father and is ONE with the Father…

Just saying that in terms of “Jesus Christ, the man�, Christ is the Son, not the Father. But He reveals the Father to us and is the only image of the Father that we have. Those who see Him and know Him see and know the Father.


The Holy Spirit is the Father AND the Son (ONE GOD) coming to make “their� abode with us:

Joh 16:27  For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

Joh 16:28  I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

Joh 14:23  Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


Isa 57:15  For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

So I can see how you can say that Jesus is NOW the Father… I just see it a bit differently. He came out from and returned to the Father and they are ONE, just as they were before the world was.

But Christ, the man, the word that was made flesh, is and always will be “the Son� and not all that the Father is, though all that the Father has was given to Him.


-----

As far as you saying that those who have “eternal life� (that which comes by and through Christ from the Father) not being able to die… if that were true (as I think you are meaning it) then how did Christ die? Or are you saying that he didn’t?

Christ was “forsaken� on the cross by the Father. This was so that He could die, as I see it. And those who are given “eternal life� through Christ now will never know spiritual death. I don’t necessarily believe that this means that they will not know physical death, at which time the spirit returns to the Father, who gave it. Just as it happened with Christ and with Steven, etc. The spirit is not the soul and it is the soul that is redeemed from the grave. So I am not sure what you mean by "never die". But perhaps that is for another thread or discussion.

Chrissie

[Michael A.]

See it however you wish.  But don't twist what I did say.  I never said Jesus didn't have a head, or that he was not subject to the Father. Neither do I appreciate your putting words into my mouth.  Let your argument stand (or fall) on what you say and the scriptures say, not on words or assumptions you put in my mouth.

I DID say that He has become "the Everlasting Father" as Isaiah penned: HIS name shall be called "Wonderful Counselor, Almighty God, Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace."  And EVERYONE who comes to the Father comes through Jesus Christ, and He is the One who "fathers" that relationship betweeen God and man in man.

But you do err, the Father is here with us, putting all things under the feet of Jesus.

But you go ahead and believe whatever you want, even though it doesn't make sense enough to you and you cannot explain it to another.

If there is anyone else who wants to learn and grow and is teachable, I would be glad to assist.  God wants all to become sons, and then father's too.  The fruit God desires is children and life that continues on in Him.  

Jesus is Himself the One who made the promise that we could sit down with Him in His Throne, even AS He overcame and sat down with His FATHER on His throne.  Anyone who believes God's word, I will be happy to help. Anyone who thinks they already know it all, I can't help.

[chrissiela]

But you do err, the Father is here with us, putting all things under the feet of Jesus.

And I never said that he wasn't. So please do not put words into my mouth, Michael.


I was only trying to UNDERSTAND what you were saying, not put words into your mouth.

I can only tell you what it was I was HEARING in order to know if what I was HEARING was what you were SAYING.

I made no accusations, Michael. I only tried to point out where I thought my understanding differed from yours (and not by much, I might add).

... and further clarify what is was that I was saying as it partained to the difference (which I didn't see as critical, but apparently you do).

I didn't think that what either of us was saying was that different from the other, but I am not going to argue with you over the WORDS.


Be well,
Chrissie

[ciy]

I love all of you folks because one of the main themes of the bible is the intent of your heart and I believe all of our intents are for the truth.
Chrissiella I can't pass on your scripture

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

If by your reasoning man cannot have the fulness of God because he must come through Christ then I guess woman cannot have the fulness of Christ because she must come through man.  I am partly joking but as I write this that scripture is really worth pondering.

"Hear O Israel God is one God."   God says do not make of me any similitude of a man.  We shall have no graven images (something we can picture in our minds)

In the beginning was the (something spoken including the thought) and the (somthing spoken including the thought) was with God, and the (something spoken including the thought) was God.  The (something spoken including the thought) was in the beginning with (something spoken including the thought).  All things were made by (something spoken including the thought); and without (something spoken including the thought) was not any thing made that was made.  In (something spoken including the thought) was life; and the (something spoken including the thought) was the light of men.  And the (something spoken including the thought) shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended (something spoken including the thought) not.   There was a man sent from (something spoken including the thought), whose name was John.  The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the (something spoken including the thought), that all men through him might believe.
Get the point. You can go on with this.

The flesh profits you nothing.  We are one with God.  Being in the  form of God thought it not robbery to be equal with God.  

We have more power in this age than we can ever imagine.  Seek it with all of your heart and do not let the veil of flesh hinder you.  Must get that visual image of a flesh man hanging on the cross 2000 years ago out of the imaginations of our hearts and realized that He is and always was and always will be a quickening spirit.  Picture you hanging on a cross and let that flesh die so that that quickening spirit can be quickened in you so that you can have a living resurrection.

Gotta go will get with you all later.
The true Truth will set you completely and forever free indeed.  You got to ask yourself one question, "Are you free?"
I agape you.
CIY

[Laren]

Must get that visual image of a flesh man hanging on the cross 2000 years ago out of the imaginations of our hearts and realized that He is and always was and always will be a quickening spirit.  Picture you hanging on a cross and let that flesh die so that that quickening spirit can be quickened in you so that you can have a living resurrection.

CIY

     

[chrissiela]

If by your reasoning man cannot have the fulness of God because he must come through Christ then I guess woman cannot have the fulness of Christ because she must come through man. I am partly joking but as I write this that scripture is really worth pondering.

CIY,

There is an 'order' to things.... God (the Father) >> Christ>> man >> woman.

Christ through God, man through Christ, woman through man (with the woman being saved through childbearing... in a sense man through woman).

Woman must come through man, but man must also come through woman. For this reason, woman is saved in child bearing. :wink:

Christ is the "door" for both.


In the beginning God made them male and female.... but through Christ there is no male and female; we are ONE (just as Christ is ONE with His Father).

Act 10:34  Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that

God is no respecter of persons:

Act 10:35  But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.[/list:u]


We no longer know Christ after the flesh, but in the SPIRIT, if it so be that the HOLY Spirit (Father AND Son - ONE GOD) dwelleth IN US.

2Co 5:16  Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea,

though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

2Co 5:17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

2Co 5:18  And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;[/list:u]


We are no longer "male and female", but ONE in spirit. All part of ONE BODY.

God's Word has returned unto Him... and all things are being made NEW.



Jesus Chirst is the SON of God, His WORD manifest in the FLESH. Which is also manifest in US (with the Father, for they are no longer 'separate' but ONE).

Jesus Christ is the name of a MAN, the SON of God. Not the name of the Father, who He came out of and returned to. There is only ONE God and that is the Father and His name is HOLY.

We no longer know Christ after the flesh, we can go straight to the Father in heaven, because that where Christ sits and where we can sit WITH 'them'.

I was not trying to argue... only point out that there is a distinction between the Father and the Son... and Christ is the Son, the name of a MAN - the name of the SON of God. To me, that has nothing to do with the glory that He had with the Father before the world was or the glory that He has with the Father now, or the glory that He will give us. We will all receive a NEW NAME.

But, in my opinion, Christ did not "become" the Father. He "came out from" the Father and He "returned to" the Father.

But I never said that they are not ONE. Even Christ said that He and His Father are ONE and that whoever has seen HIM (Christ, the SON) has seen THE FATHER (because He is the express image of the Father).

He is and always was and always will be a quickening spirit.

I agree...

Isa 57:15 For

thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; [this is the Father] I dwell in the high and holy place, WITH HIM ALSO THAT IS of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones. [/list:u]

Joh 5:21  For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

Joh 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.


May we all find ourselves abiding in the LIFE of Christ.

Blessings,
Chrissie

[Michael A.]

That "flesh man" hanging on the cross is Jesus Christ, and believe me, he felt those "iron nails" and that "cat of nine tails" too.

The spiritual is NOT separate from the physical as many seem to think, but is directly connected and just above the physical.

Anyone who thinks that Jesus Christ did not come in the flesh, or suffer in the flesh or die in the flesh is deceived. Anyone who teaches you that is also leading you astray.

Don't let rebellious spirits masquerade under the guise of bringing you truth.  The truth brings peace to the inner man, these contentious people do not have peace inside, they have turmoil, and that is not the work of the Spirit of God.

[ciy]

Chrissiela you have really filled up on the Word.  I think that is great.  And I think we are all seeking the truth with all of our hearts.  I am not arguing with anyone just discussing.  I agree with you and that God is no respecter of persons.  Never has been never will be.  There has never been one flesh man above another.  

Michael, I do not know if you are calling me contentious or not, I do not know why because I agree with your other posts.  I know Christ has come in flesh because he has come in me.

It is written, for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Be blessed.
CIY

[chrissiela]

I'm sorry, ciy, I wasn't arguing with you either. If it seemed that way, I apologize. I thought that Michael thought that I was arguing with him; that was what I was referring to. I should have been more clear.

You and I are here for the same reason... to share. And I can only share what has been revealed to me through my studies so far. If that helps someone else (which it sometimes does) than that is great. If it doesn't then that is fine too.

I know that I have been helped by what others have shared with me in the past so I, like you, am here just to share and discuss when I can or feel so lead.


Chrissie

[Craig]

If there is anyone else who wants to learn and grow and is teachable

Michael will not be posting anymore.  His beliefs on many subjects are not in line with Ray and Mikes teachings.  And by the quote above he is not following the forum rules.

Craig