What about the little ones?

[fe32k]

What of babies? Are they thrown in the lake of fire? What of those that do not know how to discern good from evil?

[YellowStone]

This is a good question FE32k

As there a very few who are as innocent as a baby, then could it be possible that their experience in the Lake Of Fire might almost be symbolic.

The question is, is man carnal by nature, or he so by design?  Either way, I do not see babies having to endure as much as most adults.

I will let Christ be the Judge of that question.

If anyone knows if Ray has written on this, please post.

Love to you in Christ,
Darren

[Kat]

Hi fe32k,

The Lake of fire is God's judgment, and who will judge the world?

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them.

1Cor 6:2  Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?

It is the elect that will judge those little ones brought up the the resurrection of the dead.  These little ones are innocent and so they do not yet have sin.  They do not need to be purged and cleansed.  But they will be taught to live a righteous life, like all in th e resurrection of the dead will be.  But it will take time, but that age will last as long as it takes.

Isa 26:9  At night my soul longs for You, Indeed, my spirit within me seeks You diligently; For when the earth experiences Your judgments The inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[sansmile]

KAT!!!!!


Wise words indeed. 

That brought to mind to me scriptures on measuring.

(Mat 7:2)  For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

(2Co 10:13)  But we will not boast of things without our measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you.

(Eph 4:13)  Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

(Rev 11:1)  And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

The elect through having been judged on earth will have received their full measure??  Through that measuring stick they will judge righteously??

Some will receive many stripes  ........ some few.

(Luk 12:47)  And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

(Luk 12:48)  But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.


God Bless
Sandie

[Deborah-Leigh]

Great Scriptures added Sandie!

[gmik]

3 years ago our daughters in laws son had conjoined twins. The doctors gave them 5 minutes to live.  But they lived to be 6 months.  They were separated about 1 month after birth. They were named Hope and Grace.  They were on TV and the news.  Churches all over Pennsylvania were praying. 

For 6 months these precious girls were never held or cuddled.  They endured many surgeries, quite painful.  They never could get out of those enclosed glass bassinets.  Their mom and dad could only touch them thru those awkward gloves.  The doctors kept saying they are not going to make it.

But the parents kept believing God was going to do a miracle and kept telling the doctors to "try that next new thing".  When they died we all were in grief.  We couldn't believe it.  God didn't come thru!!  What happened.

Today at the hospital w/ my twin grandboys, we did remember Grace & Hope and started talking about it.  The majority opinion was that "faith" replaced "common sense" and we are letting doctors extend life when they shouldn't.  I stayed out of the conversation, as I was holding Ethan and couldn't pay attention.

My question.  Why was Grace & Hope born if only to die?  Why were they experimented on for 6 months if God was only going to have them die anyway?  Most Christians believe that the Doctors (not God) were prolonging their time.

Anyway, I don't really expect an answer.  I don't want the quick version anyway-it was just Gods' Will.  I know that.  I am just a little heart heavy to remember them.-when I look at my perfect twin grandsons and think how blessed I am, I can't imagine all the things that COULD go wrong.

I hope Hope and Grace get NO stripes at all! and get ushered right on in!

[DizzyD]

                      fe32k, we also have the scriptures of Matthew 18:1-5:,  At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus,saying,Who is the greatest in the Kingdom of heaven?
                    2:  And Jesus called a little child unto him and set him in the mist of them.
                    3:
  And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children , ye shall not enter into the Kingdom of heaven.
                     4:Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this child, the same is greatest in the Kingdom of heaven.

                     I think that pretty much tells us what Jesus thought about that
                                                      Peace in His name

                                                                   Bud

[DizzyD]

                            whoops I forgot verse 5
                                 5: And whoso shall recieve one such little child in my name recieveth me.
                 
            also,   gmik  Personaly I don't think infants go through punishment as one who lives to an age that knows the right and wrong ways. I may be wrong but I don't thinkso. I'm sure if I am I will be corrected by someone with eyes more open than mine.

                                  Bud

[skydreamers]

Hi Gena,

I don't think there is any easy or comforting answer to the situation with Hope and Grace.  But I do know we are all like an interconnected web, and nothing happens to somebody that doesn't affect somebody else.  None of us lives in a vacuum.  Those two little girls came into the world, and countless people have been affected by their situation.  Those directly related, no doubt went through the trial of agony and the experience of not being able to control things.  How God uses these situations to intricately teach on levels most are not aware of, is likely yet beyond our full comprehension. 

Their lives were not just unto themselves, as our lives are not just for ourselves....we are all in the storm together....God is using the lives of people to bring teaching into the lives of yet other people.  Not just teaching, but disciplining, purging, judging, loving, edifying and healing etc.  Think of your own life...how have you experienced most things...through objects, material things, creation...yes maybe....but MOSTLY through the interactions we have with other human beings, or through stories and testimonies we've heard. 

Those little girls lives hold incredible value and I like to believe that a reward is waiting for them for they have endured already much suffering.  Our lives, short or long are for His purposes and to His glory.  Whether pain or joy, it is all somehow for the building of character and the molding into his image.  I don't understand exactly why all the time either, but I know it must be all part of the "experience of evil to humble us". 

Job 1:21
And he said, "Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked shall I return. The LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD."

Perhaps for tragedies like these, our understanding and comfort will not come until God is all in all. 

Peace and love to ya,
Diana

[hillsbororiver]

When I was 9 years old my baby sister died at 6 months old, when I was 13 my baby brother died at 1 1/2 years. It broke my heart bitterly as well as my parents and my other sister (2 years younger than me). I hated God for treating my family as He did, both my parents were handicapped and I felt they did not deserve the pain and anguish God was constantly putting them through.

For the next few years I lived like someone who hated everything, it wasn't until my first real girlfriend died when I was 17 that I was broken, helpless and knew I was powerless to do anything about it. It was after Roberta's death that I truly sought Him because I began to realize (through His grace) that this experience on earth was not some random lottery game but that all things had a God given purpose.

Although I first sought Him earnestly at 17, He led me on one incredible roller coaster ride until 34 years later when I "stumbled" onto Bible Truths and real understanding began to open up to me.

Kat & Diana gave beautiful responses here and I agree that those who died so young will "learn righteousness" but will not suffer any punishments for what they experienced in this life, how God will accomplish this would only be pure speculation on my part, I am good in just believing that He has a perfect plan for them.

His Peace to you,

Joe

[LittleBear]

Hi Gena,

I've heard it said that it takes the elect a lifetime of that experience of evil to humble us and to get us to that place where we can be called mature sons and daughters of God. The idea is that if someone dies early they are therefore not qualified. I don't know if that is true, but it's too broad a statement, and I don't know if it is based on any scripture.

Some people have a big experience of evil early in their lives, like Hope and Grace did. They were suffering greatly in their short 6 months of life, experiencing things that most babies don't. That experience may have actually qualified them to win the prize of election, to be in the first resurrection. I don't know enough about this though to say for sure, but perhaps.

The scriptures quoted by DizzyD are amazing in this case. If a little child that has been nurtured and protected qualifies as being humble, then how much more would it be so for Hope and Grace. God used the doctors to accomplish His will with those two little girls. As hard as this may sound, His will was for them to live 6 months in an incubator, not being held like babies need to be held, enduring numerous, painful operations and procedures, only to die at the end of it all. They really went through the fire.

Now this following may be totally off the wall, but here goes anyway.
I'm thinking of part of the answer that God gave to Job:

Job 38:6 and 7
"Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? Or who laid the cornerstone thereof? When the morningstars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

This is talking about creation at the beginning of our world and time. Who are these sons of God? Could they possibly be us, our spirits, before time, before we were born? If so, why were we shouting for joy? Did we know what was going to happen? Did we know His plan back then? We would have know about suffering, and still we shouted for joy. Would Grace and Hope have known what would happen in their short lives? And still, they shouted for joy.

Ok, maybe totally off the wall. Maybe the sons of God were angels. Or maybe they were us. We will find out for sure one day.

Love,

Ursula

[Kat]

Hi Gena,

Your twin grandchilren or adorable 
I think Diana put it really well about the lost of the other twins.  It's like trying to have understanding of something that is beyond our comprehension now.  I think it will all be so perfectly wonder, when God reveals what He has in store.

Hi Ursula,

In reference to Job 38, I think this is a good explanation from the Barnes commentary.

Job 38:7 -
When the morning-stars - There can be little doubt that angelic beings are intended here, though some have thought that the stars literally are referred to, and that they seemed to unite in a chorus of praise when another world was added to their number. The Vulgate renders it, astra matutina, morning-stars; the Septuagint, ότε εγενήθηναι αστρα  hote egenēthēnai astra - "when the stars were made:" the Chaldee, "the stars of the zephyr," or "morning" - צפר כוכבי.
The comparison of a prince, a monarch, or an angel, with a star, is not uncommon;  The expression "the morning-stars" is used on account of the beauty of the principal star which, at certain seasons of the year, leads on the morning. It is applied naturally to those angelic beings that are of distinguished glory and rank in heaven. That it refers to the angels, seems to be evident from the connection; and this interpretation is demanded in order to correspond with the phrase "sons of God" in the other member of the verse.

Sang together - United in a grand chorus or concert of praise. It was usual to celebrate the laying of a cornerstone, or the completion of an edifice, by rejoicing; see Zec 4:7; Ezr 3:10.

And all the sons of God - Angels - called the sons of God from their resemblance to him, or their being created by him.
------------------------------------------------------------------

That experience may have actually qualified them to win the prize of election, to be in the first resurrection.

The only way to gain salvation, to be born into the kingdom is through Jesus Christ.

John 10:9  "I am the door. If anyone enters in by Me, he shall be saved and shall go in and out and find pasture."

Salvation is a process, that is shown in this life through the elect few.
All who are in the resurrection of the dead, will have to go through the same process.  Given the knowledge of the truth and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and learn righteousness.  Then as they become spiritual mature they will be brought into the kingdom.
That just the way I see it.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Ursula

I too have heard this idea as a teaching that we existed in the spirit ahead of our being conceived and then born into a physical. I heard this from my ex-pastor!

The Scriptures do not support this however. As Kat shows through her study, the angels are the angels and they do not become humans later I don't think! For us, this Scripture is written to give us the truth of the matter. Here it is:

1Cor 15 : 45 Thus it is written. The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam Christ became a life-giving Spirit restoring the dead to life.46 BUT IT IS NOT THE SPIRITUAL LIFE WHICH CAME FIRST, BUT THE PHYSICAL.

For me that Scripture gets rid of all the speculation and supposition that lead into errors. I find if there is no Scripture to support an idea or belief then it simply is as Paul writes to the 2 Cor 10 : 5 ...a proud and lofty thing that sets itself up against the true knowledge of God

I am not saying YOU have set yourself up against the true knowledge of God!  I too have heard what you brought to our attention.  It is the teachings that do the setting up into error and speculations that lead to pagan teachings of transmigration and reincarnation etc!...

It is good you pointed this out Ursula

Peace be to you

Arcturus

[gmik]

Thank you thank you, all of you.  You have indeed helped me have a better understanding of all this.  Thru tears I am humbled by the knowledge you have and wish to share, and by your own sorrows.

Joe, thank you for sharing that again.  What a miracle you are!
Diana,  your thoughts hit home w/ me- I could SEE what you were saying.
Kat, Ursula, Arc- wonderful scriptures and heart felt thoughts.
Bud, feaK, darren, thanks for starting me to thinking about all this.

WE are in this storm together, an experience of evil, to prepare us to be in HIS family. That is the prize and the goal. Job 1:21 says it all!

Thanks again all of you!!!!!

[indianabob]

Friend Gena,
I don't believe that anyone gets ushered right on in.  That it seems would restrict their opportunities to learn God's way by exercising choice [not free will] and finding out what happens when we obey out of love.  God give each of us TIME to learn to trust Him.  That would be Messiah exercising patience and teaching us to replace independence and self reliance with dependence and reliance upon God.

Consider that even these little ones may be resurrected to judgement and adopted by one of us who will have been in the first resurrection.  Or perhaps they will meet and live with their own parents who gave them up during this first life and then one of us will counsel the parents. 

It is only an instant of unconsciousness or death and then the next life.  Yes, I'm speculating on what I think that I understand about the character of God, so why not have a fresh start in the 'new world' of true knowledge and beauty and cities where children are safe to run and play in the city streets.

Also consider that these little ones will be resurrected with new, perfect, healthy bodies and consider that God and Lord Jesus and we also I believe, will have the power to heal their little minds of the trauma that they suffered and replace it with generous love and caring so that they will flourish in the new world.

In my view the judgement process will be long term and afford folks opportunity to examine themselves and seek God's way of life as they are 'motivated' daily by the pioneers who were judged in similar fashion in the first life. The lake of purifying spiritual fire will only remove the chaff in us or them and strengthen the character traits that God adds through their daily use. The benefit will be minds and character becoming more godly every day.

If I have misunderstood some of our future, please advise one and all.

Bob

3 years ago our daughters in laws son had conjoined twins. The doctors gave them 5 minutes to live.  But they lived to be 6 months.  They were separated about 1 month after birth. They were named Hope and Grace.  They were on TV and the news.  Churches all over Pennsylvania were praying. 

For 6 months these precious girls were never held or cuddled.  They endured many surgeries, quite painful.  They never could get out of those enclosed glass bassinets.  Their mom and dad could only touch them thru those awkward gloves.  The doctors kept saying they are not going to make it.

But the parents kept believing God was going to do a miracle and kept telling the doctors to "try that next new thing".  When they died we all were in grief.  We couldn't believe it.  God didn't come thru!!  What happened.

Today at the hospital w/ my twin grandboys, we did remember Grace & Hope and started talking about it.  The majority opinion was that "faith" replaced "common sense" and we are letting doctors extend life when they shouldn't.  I stayed out of the conversation, as I was holding Ethan and couldn't pay attention.

My question.  Why was Grace & Hope born if only to die?  Why were they experimented on for 6 months if God was only going to have them die anyway?  Most Christians believe that the Doctors (not God) were prolonging their time.

Anyway, I don't really expect an answer.  I don't want the quick version anyway-it was just Gods' Will.  I know that.  I am just a little heart heavy to remember them.-when I look at my perfect twin grandsons and think how blessed I am, I can't imagine all the things that COULD go wrong.

I hope Hope and Grace get NO stripes at all! and get ushered right on in!

[gmik]

Thanks Bob.  That sure puts things in a "user friendly", down to earth way! I hadn't EVER really thought about what the elect actually does. Teaching the little ones is an awesome picture!