> General Discussions
Worship/song services
mrsnacks:
So what about the cults? I have attended services of other religions and the congregation sings songs praising God. How about the Mormons who claim that their church is the true church because they feel God in their bosom.
I have friends in the music industry ( pros ) that attend those big mega churches and get paid for singing and playing. They are not believers yet they get into it.
I will share this with you. Being in the music industry and working in studios- I have had it told me from a major Christian celebrity that the Christian record companies were worse then the secular. And from engineers who worked on Christian records of how un-Christianlike the folk were. It is a business and church has become a business. I think Jesus would have overturned the tables at the temple no matter what song they were singing.
So I have enough on my table. I know I am in process. And so are all those in Christendom. We are all at different point but the good news is God is working in all of us. I am just blessed in coming out of Babylon. And it is by seeing all the craziness and nuttiness around me that was means to an end in God bringing me to search and arrive here at BT.
------------------------------
Yellowstone said :
Bottom line Kat, is that when I was singing those songs. I was singing them to the God that I knew was in my heart. Not the God that they spoke of from the pulpit.
----------------------------------------
mrsnacks response
I believe you. But is it possible that the God they are singing from their hearts is not the God of Scripture ? This is all so subjective it seems.We don't see behind the scenes. A non believer can sing a praise song and look like he / she means it. I sung many songs and had no idea what I was singing. I just mouthed the words. I know many do the same thing.
Most in Christendom are sincere but sincerely wrong. The God they sing about is a God of contradictions. A God that sends unbelievers to hell. A God that is three persons making one God. A God who claims to be the Savior of the world and in reality only saves some.
Remember that there will be many saying Lord, Lord didn't we do this or that in your name. And what was the Lord's response ? Depart from me - I never knew you.
--------------------
Yellowstone says:
There are many people that I know who diligently seek God but reject almost every word of the church.
---------------------
mrsnacks response
I don't think you know or any of us. God sees the heart of man. Man looks on the outside. Only He has access. We see the surface. Church service lasts an hour and a half. You are not with these people the rest of the week. Shakespere said that "God has given us faces and then we wear masks." Much of what goes on in Christendom is mask wearing. I know - I have been there and done that. I see the pretending.I am sure you have. We see the actions. I had 2 assistant pastors in one church that didn't like me at all for my beliefs. It was so obvious. This I knew for a fact. I confronted the head pastor and he covered for them. But they gave me a Holy Spirit hug and smile on Sundays. And they sang and worshipped God with anger and resentment in their hearts.
God sees the heart.
--------------
Yellowstone says
There are many people that I know who diligently seek God but reject almost every word of the church.
-----------------------------------------
mrsnacks says:
I respectfully disagree. Few are chosen. If this was true I wouldn't have been kicked out of the churches I attended. Do you think for one minute Ray or anyone of us would be welcomed to preach in the churches today? Nothing has changed. Jesus was crucified 2000 years ago and if He were around today He would be killed by Christendom.
But I do see your point Darren. If God is the one who opens the eyes - I wonder why it took so long for Him to open mine. His ways are strange.
Church today has become a social club. The teens I know attend for the most part go to church for the activities and because of their parents. The rest of the week ask them if they spend time in the Word or in prayer. How can you turn down pizza night or film night. OR even the great pot lucks. The church I attend had banana split day. It was fantastic. And on Sunday mornings - donuts and fresh coffee.
Makes you want to go even if the teachings are wrong. :-\
Kat:
Hi Prosizz,
The Christian church is the congregation/people. Does God's Spirit visit where Satan has His throne? I don't think so.
Hi Darren,
--- Quote ---I find it kind of apalling to think that you believe that EVERY person that is in the church today has a 100% carnal mind and not a sinlge atom's worth of the Spirit of Truth. God measures his Spirit to whom he chooses in the amount he wants.
--- End quote ---
We do only recieve an ernest of God's Spirit, but we become a new creature and we are no longer of this world. We do not stay among those that do not believe as we do. That's why it says, "come out from among them and be separated, says the Lord..."
2Co 6:16 And what agreement does a temple of God have with idols? For you are the temple of the living God, as God has said, "I will dwell in them and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."
v. 17 Therefore come out from among them and be separated, says the Lord, and do not touch the unclean thing. And I will receive you
v. 18 and I will be a Father to you, and you shall be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.
Those called do not have God's Spirit and can not worship in spirit and truth.
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
v. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship Him.
v. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.
These excerpts From Ray paper 'WHERE IS THE CHURCH THAT JESUS BUILT?' The chosen few are the temple where the Spirit of God dwells, not the Christian churches.
http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html --------------------------------------------------------
"A new name written, which no man knows except he that receives it." [That’s CHRIST, Who] "…had a name written, that no man knew, but He Himself … and His name is called The Word of God" (Rev. 19:12-13).
That’s CHRIST, Jesus is "The Word of God" (John 1:1). The world often treats God’s saints as if they were heretics. Only those who possess the Name of Jesus Christ truly "know" what the name is and all that it represents. Not all who speak of the Name, have the name "written" within them. Men’s lips are often far far from their heart.
I already covered how that "name" is representative of THE PERSON WHO BEARS IT. To believe in THE NAME of Jesus Christ is to believe ALL THAT JESUS IS! And the reason we have a "new" name is because all whom are "IN Christ" are "NEW creatures [new creations]: old things are passed away; behold, ALL THINGS ARE BECOME NEW" ( II Cor. 5:17). We not only have a new name, but we become and ARE A NEW NAME as well.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Oh that we would have ears to SPIRITUALLY hear:
"Therefore if any man be IN Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" (II Cor. 5:17).
This is the new, converted, believer’s life "IN Christ." And when God comes to judge the world, we will have no fear of judgment for we are being judged now "IN Christ." Highlight this verse in your Bibles:
"And we have known and believed the love that God has to us. God is love; and He that dwells in love dwells IN GOD, and GOD IN HIM. Herein is your love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: BECAUSE [get ready; here it comes…] As He [Jesus Christ] IS [right now, this minute] SO ARE WE in this world" (I John 4:17).
And just how is that?
We just read it—because we live IN CHRIST, and Christ lives IN US!!! Our names are written in "the book of THE LIFE OF THE LAMB" only if WE TOO LIVE "THE life OF the Lamb," IN THE LAMB! "Abide in Me, and I in you" (John 15:4). I pray for God to give you spiritual eyes to see these grand Truths that have been hid from the blinded eyes of the Church today.
A stern warning: How many does Jesus say through His Spirit, will He "…not blot out his name out of the book of life?" Let’s read it:
"Thou has A FEW names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and shall walk with Me in white: for they are worthy" (Rev. 3:4).
Dear readers it is always, just the FEW who will be in Christ in His glory in the first resurrection. All of the rest, ALL of them, will come up in the Second Resurrection, and white throne judgment with its "lake of fire and second death."
I feel it necessary to show you just how sobering our Lord’s statement to the churches really is. Not many escaped the flood that came on the world in Noah’s day because the thoughts of men were only evil continually,
"…while the ark was a preparing, wherein FEW, that is, eight souls were saved…" (I Pet. 3:20).
Are things better now? NO, Paul said things would get worse AND WORSE.
"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads unto life, and FEW there be that find it" (Matt. 7:14).
"So the last shall be first, and the first last: and many be called, but FEW chosen" (Matt. 20:16).
"For many are called, but FEW are chosen" (Matt. 22:14).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
THE "CALLED" AND THE "NOT CALLED"
"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many [some, but not many] wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
But God has chosen the foolish things [many translations do not insert the word "things" in these verses] of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And the base things of the world, and things which are despised, has God chosen, yes, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: that no flesh should glory in His presence" (I Cor. 1:26-29).
So we see that God calls MOSTLY those who are: weak, base, despised, nothings! Are we to believe that God is going to build a SPIRITUAL ARMY of Sons and Daughters by which He will conquer and SAVE THE WORLD?
Hard to believe, isn’t it? I think we can all agree that there is a great deal of work to be done with and to these "nothings of the world" whom God is calling to such a formidable, once-in-an-eternity task!
But of the "many called," we are told, "few are chosen" (Matt. 20:16). Why is that? God has intended it to be such. We are given the parable of the "sower of seed" where much of the seed fell by the side of the tilled soil, and the birds ate it; some had no depth and withered in the sun; still more fell among thorns and were chocked, but some fell upon good soil and produced much fruit. Many seed are sown, but few seed produce good fruit. "Seed" we see everywhere in the Church; "fruit" of God’s spirit is more rare. These few have the added designation of:
"These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful" (Rev. 17:14).
These are the "very elect" who cannot be deceived any longer by the Great Whore, "Mystery Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots, and the Abominations of the earth."
One more important verse regarding our calling, that I will cite out of the Concordant Literal New Testament because I believe they translate the Greek aorist tense properly, whereas the King James uses the past tense:
"Now we are aware that GOD [it is unfortunate that the King James leaves out "God" even though it is in the manuscripts. Most translations do put "God" in this opening phrase. Things don’t just ‘work’ together without GOD doing the ‘working’] is working all together for the good of those who are loving God, who are [being] called according to the purpose that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren. Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls [not ‘called’ as all are NOT YET called, it is the aorist tense] also, and whom He calls, these He justifies, also; now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also" (Rom. 8:28:30).
Now, pay attention: All which God foreknew, He then designates beforehand (He hand-picks them, if you will). And therefore, since He has already designated them beforehand, when they are born in whatever generation God designates; He then calls them. Now it is true that God calls MANY OTHERS whom He has NOT designated to be "conformed to the image of His Son" AT THE TIME that each generation appears in history.
There are many more "called" in each generation than are actually, "chosen" to be conformed to the image of His Son at that time.
All that are not chosen will be in the second resurrection/white throne judgment/lake of fire. These will go the "broad way into destruction" from which they will await judgment at the great white throne. But, those which God foreknows and designates beforehand, He definitely does call, but these designated ones GO ON to be JUSTIFIED AND GLORIFIED. They are not just the "called," but the "called AND CHOSEN" which will go on to glorification in service with Christ, as the manifested Sons and Daughters of God, in the Kingdom of God, to bring the rest of heaven and earth to SALVATION!
When Jesus says that,
"Many will say unto me in that day, Lord, Lord… Then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity" (Matt. 722-23),
He is not speaking of a minority but a majority. The "many" NEVER means the minority!
We will see it conclusively proved from God’s Word that the majority in the Church today are going the "broad way," and not the "straight and narrow way." And I am not just preaching to the choir when I say that only a "FEW" will be in the first resurrection and rule and reign with Christ, I am speaking to all the church and to myself as well. I know these aren’t the "soft" words that tickle people’s ears, but what I am telling you is a "hard saying" of the Scripture that is absolutely true. Jesus Christ Himself said that "THE MANY" must "DEPART from Me." Jesus doesn’t "know" the many, in a spiritual relationship, because they are too carnal to be spiritual.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
skydreamers:
Oh boy, this is a tough one. I personally never had much of a struggle coming out of the "church building/system". My husband and I moved to a new city about 5 years ago and initially when we arrived I sought out a church to attend and found one warm and welcoming enough for us to stay for a couple of years. We made friends with one couple, the husband being an elder and they were warm and relaxed people. Other than that we didn't get too personally involved with church members or activities. My husband only being involved at all because of me. To be honest, I slowly stopped attending church and at the time didn't really understand why....I thought I was slipping again and just not being a "good Christian". But I knew somehow I wasn't being fed, and I was spiritually drying up.
However, I do remember plenty of times listening to the message and feeling like God was speaking directly to me through the pastor because he would hit upon the precise things I was praying and thinking about that week. I know this has happened to others as well. These things were usually about daily living type subjects, than about doctrines. I would come away with a feeling of having been touched by the presence of God. And other times I would just find myself quietly weeping, not knowing why...thinking I was just being sentimental. All things of the flesh??? I really have no idea.
What I understand from Kat's post is that the methods and means by which the religious church system operates is carnal. People go to church for hundreds of reasons, and MOST of the time those reasons are to fulfill some kind of carnal desire (socialization, answer to prayer, stress relief, enjoyment of praise/worship etc etc etc etc and on and on). I rarely, if ever, found church to be about digging into the treasure trove of God's word, seeking for deeper knowledge as to how to understand SPIRITUAL matters. Most sermons point to how to be a good Christian in the "world". Even our Sabbath school "bible studies" consisted of study material put out by the church and just a constant rehashing of already founded doctrines within the church....there was nothing new.
Looking back at it now it was like being a hamster in a wheel. You're getting exercise, you're being fed and looked after but you're really not GOING ANYWHERE. Just stuck in the same old cage.
But I also see Darren's point of view, in that of course God is working on the hearts of those he has chosen while they are yet in a church system. In fact, I like to think, for me, God has been working on my heart all of my life, before I even ever stepped into the first church building.
He found his people in a desert land, in a barren place where animals howl. He guarded them, took care of them, and protected them because they were helpless. Like an eagle that stirs up its nest, hovers over its young, spreads its wings to catch them, and carries them on its feathers, so the LORD alone led his people. No foreign god was with him.
Deuteronomy 32:10-12
Satan may dwell in the church system and have his throne there, but that does not mean Jesus is not walking in the "midst" of this system:
http://bible-truths.com/lake11.html
DOES JESUS RESIDE AND DWELL IN THE CHURCH?
Does not Jesus dwell and reside in the Seven Churches of God mentioned in the Book of Revelation? Actually, He does not. Let’s read it:
"Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things says He that holds the seven stars in his right hand, who WALKS in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks" (Rev. 2:1).
Jesus Christ "walks" in the midst of the churches—He does not dwell there; He does not reside there; He does not have His throne there. But someone else does:
SATAN has his "seat [Greek: ‘throne’]" in the Churches (Rev. 2:13)
SATAN "dwells" in the Churches (Rev. 2:13).
SATAN still has his "synagogue" in the Churches (Rev. 2:9 & 3:9).
SATAN’S "depths" of doctrinal evils are in the Churches (Rev. 2:24).
It is Satan who has his "throne" in the Churches--the Throne of Jesus Christ is in Heaven with His Father (Rev. 3:21), not in the church. He is not enthroned in the Church; He merely "walks" in the Churches.
Perhaps everyone's response here is according to where they are at in their growth. In this way, there is no right or wrong. Let's not forget that it is God doing the leading.
Matt, quite simply, if you go then that's where God wants you to be, if you don't go then that's where God wants you to be. Trust in the living God who
...is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
Jude 1:24-25
Peace and may God be with you,
Diana
mrsnacks:
One important point is that God wants us to worship Him in Spirit and truth.
YellowStone:
Whoaaa!! :D
Hey let us find some common ground. Who here will stand up and say. "Gosh darn one second I was in church singing my lungs out, and then, I found myself walking out the door, a new person."
Who amongst us woke up one morning born anew? Who also suddenly realized, that every word that they had heard previously was a LIE? I would be very interested to know how long it took for some of you to come out of the church, once you realized it's teachings just didn't mesh with the spirit within your heart. Yes, the very same spirit that let's you know when the truth is in fact truth.
Is it impossible for God not to be working His Spirit in even a small fraction within the church today. How many here came not from the church. Why did you come? Of course God is in control. Of course everything happens according to his will.
I think many are confusing the establishment of the church, that is Banylon the Great, with the people who have been blinded. Blinded by whom if not their own decietful hearts. By God who blinded their eyes to see and closed their earts to hear.
When it says:
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen. Who are they being called by. Is it not God's own Spirit.
This does not and cannot mean that once called, such become born again of the spirit. They are merely called. There is a definate difference between being called and chosen.
I am NOT disagreeing with any Scripture presented. But I will disagree with the notion that God cannot work his spirit in the hearts of even some (if not all) that attend the church.
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
We all should know that God does what he wants when he wants for reasons unknown to us.
Phl 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
If Matt's wife Jennifer, decided for reasons unknown that Matt is a much calmer, profound person than he was before and that his words do make more sense than that of the church; that she joins this forum. How many hear would argue with her if she said: "You know, I have been questioning it for a number of months, but I just didn't have enough to leave, but then this happened....."
Who would say she was mistaken. That the God she was singing to while singing heartfelt, meaningful songs. Wasn't the God that has been molding her to his will in his time.
Who would tell her she was wrong. :)
I am so sorry that a simple point such as this was lost. There is a lesson in this for everyone. :)
Matt, please forgive me for using your wife lovely in my analogy. :)
Praise be to our loving and gracious God.
Darren
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version