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Author Topic: Punishment/OT vs. Endless torment NT?  (Read 4765 times)

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hillsbororiver

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Punishment/OT vs. Endless torment NT?
« on: June 26, 2007, 04:23:27 PM »

Ray has brought this up in some articles and it really struck me when I first contemplated what he wrote. In the OT the very worst punishment was death, but of course we know conventional "christian wisdom" holds that now the punishment is a one size fits all type and unless you call on Him you are doomed to experience this torture for eternity.

I was reading Exodus 21 earlier and it hit me once again, here the punishment fits the crime, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, not an eye for a tooth or a torturous stoning to within an inch of ones life, then a time to revive the criminal to consciousness, maybe a bit of food and water, some rest and back to stoning until they pass out from the pain repeating this process for days, weeks, months, years. Nowhere in the OT can we find this type of punishment prescribed or such a sentence carried out by the command of God's Law.


As a matter of fact the word "torture" does not appear in the OT or NT (King James) when doing a word search on E-Sword.

Before anyone writes of some of the judgments against those who opposed Israel that is a whole different topic, the point of this post is to underline the fact that death was the ultimate punishment under the Old Covenant, and that the punishment fit the crime.

 Exodus 21

 1Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them.

 2If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.

 3If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.

 4If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.

 5And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:

 6Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

 7And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.

 8If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.

 9And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters.

 10If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.

 11And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money.

 12He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.

 13And if a man lie not in wait, but God deliver him into his hand; then I will appoint thee a place whither he shall flee.

 14But if a man come presumptuously upon his neighbour, to slay him with guile; thou shalt take him from mine altar, that he may die.

 15And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.

 16And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.

 17And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

 18And if men strive together, and one smite another with a stone, or with his fist, and he die not, but keepeth his bed:

 19If he rise again, and walk abroad upon his staff, then shall he that smote him be quit: only he shall pay for the loss of his time, and shall cause him to be thoroughly healed.

 20And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.

 21Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.

 22If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

 23And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

 24Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

 25Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

 26And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake.

 27And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.

 28If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be quit.

 29But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death.

 30If there be laid on him a sum of money, then he shall give for the ransom of his life whatsoever is laid upon him.

 31Whether he have gored a son, or have gored a daughter, according to this judgment shall it be done unto him.

 32If the ox shall push a manservant or a maidservant; he shall give unto their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned.

 33And if a man shall open a pit, or if a man shall dig a pit, and not cover it, and an ox or an a@@ fall therein;

 34The owner of the pit shall make it good, and give money unto the owner of them; and the dead beast shall be his.

 35And if one man's ox hurt another's, that he die; then they shall sell the live ox, and divide the money of it; and the dead ox also they shall divide.

 36Or if it be known that the ox hath used to push in time past, and his owner hath not kept him in; he shall surely pay ox for ox; and the dead shall be his own.

I know some may be aghast at the above list and have an issue or two with the "unfairness" inherent in the Old Covenant, remember this has many spiritual applications and even more importantly we have a new and better promise made possible by our Lord;

Jer 31:31  Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Heb 8:6  But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Heb 8:8  For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Heb 8:13  In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
 
Heb 12:24  And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe


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mari_et_pere

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Re: Punishment/OT vs. Endless torment NT?
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2007, 04:34:38 PM »

Thank God for the New Covenant because I'd have been put to death many times over.  ;D

Sorry, couldn't help but think that. Not meaning to make light of your post Joe.

Heb 8:13  In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Thank God for that.

Matt
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Punishment/OT vs. Endless torment NT?
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2007, 04:45:47 PM »


Thank God for the New Covenant because I'd have been put to death many times over.  ;D

Matt

 Matt,

Same here Brother!

I might have died missing teeth, probably a hand or foot, maybe an eye or two as well, not a pretty picture.  ;)

Peace,

Joe

P.S. AMEN! to the New Covenant
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Chris R

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Re: Punishment/OT vs. Endless torment NT?
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2007, 09:37:23 AM »

Hi Joe,

I have found little evidence that the tribes actually executed these judgements on anyone. Who could do such a thing? 17And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death....Could any normal human being stone to death their Son or Daughter?

God knew they would not carry out these judgements,

And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD: for ye have not walked in my statutes, neither executed my judgments, but have done after the manners of the heathen that [are] round about you. [Eze 11:12]

But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, [Eze 20:13]

Of course there are a few examples, but these being the exception rather than the rule.

This is my understanding as of now.

Peace

Chris R
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skydreamers

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Re: Punishment/OT vs. Endless torment NT?
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2007, 01:35:55 PM »

Hi Chris,

Thanks for pointing that out!  I've never seen that before, but that certainly puts things in a different light.  Very cool.

Hi Joe,

You know, that lists reminds me of how I once struggled with the sabbath issue.  I had committed myself  a long while back to reading excerpts of the old testament (even though I really didn't want to, nor did I understand much of it) and I remember coming across a scripture where God said, through Moses, to stone a man who was found picking up sticks on the Sabbath. 

I immediately phoned up my dear friend, who is a physical Sabbath keeper (as I was at the time) and exclaimed, "What is this all about??"  As I started to study out how God had commanded the Israelites to physically keep the Sabbath I started to realize it was near impossible.  And furthermore, I didn't know of anyone in my Sabbath-keeping experience that kept the Sabbath in all the physical ways that God had commanded in the old testament.  So I said to my girlfriend, "Shouldn't we all be stoning each other???"

At the time, that was a real eye opener that something was amiss in how I understood the Sabbath....so I had to spend much time, study and prayer to sift through all that I had learned in the church and all that I was seeing in scripture. 

I wrote something like a 15 page letter to a well respected Preacher with an online ministry who was a Sabbath keeper (from whom I had learned a lot of wonderful things and who I myself respected greatly)...anyways, I wrote him with my honest questions and concerns and he didn't address not one of them.  He simply and kindly wrote back with a few lines saying that I was definitely on the wrong track, but keep on studying the Word.  I was sorely disappointed but God graciously gave me a peace about it and I continued my studies and God opened my eyes to the spiritual understanding of the Sabbath.

So this may seem long-winded, but the point I'm trying to make, is for me, scripture like you presented above no longer scares me or disturbs me as it once did, because even if I don't understand it all, I know there is a far deeper spiritual meaning behind it all....and God will make it clear in His time.

Peace,
Diana
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Punishment/OT vs. Endless torment NT?
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2007, 11:05:31 PM »

Hi Chris,

Your point is well taken, as a matter of fact this lamenting by Moses through Malachi about the disobedience and faithlessness of most of Israel streams through all the books of the Old Testament. My point was not that Israel was obedient to the laws & statutes of God but that as cruel some of these judgments may seem to be they do not include eternal or even extended torture, yes, some of them may seem extreme but unless the wronged party asked for compensation or retribution there was no punishment at all. Do you think that this was a lesson in having mercy? Unless judgment was requested by the wronged party there was no punishment, if it was requested there was an outline given (by God) so that the punishments would not take away an arm for the loss of a finger or a leg for the loss of a toe. The accuser knew what he may bring upon the accused and if they were merciful toward those who wronged them (such as your example about parents stoning their children) these punishments were not carried out.

The mainstream christian doctrine is that eternal torture is the "just reward" for even the most minor unrepented sin, even if one had never been introduced to the message and Person that is our Savior, Jesus Christ. The One who is truly merciful has been portrayed as a maniacal, vengeful madman who does not have the time (can't wait until it's too late) to save many of those He created from a torturous eternity because His busy schedule just won't allow for it. They also portray Him as a hypocrite, the One who admonishes us to have mercy and forgive those who mistreat us will burn, torture and punish those who have wronged Him, or even those who never were fortunate enough to have a knowledge of Him at all will be tormented without any hope of being reprieved. It is insane.

Bottom line, the worst punishments of the OT pale in comparison to what the churches claim to be the justice of our Lord.



Hi Joe,

You know, that lists reminds me of how I once struggled with the sabbath issue.  I had committed myself  a long while back to reading excerpts of the old testament (even though I really didn't want to, nor did I understand much of it) and I remember coming across a scripture where God said, through Moses, to stone a man who was found picking up sticks on the Sabbath. 


Hello Diana,

I also struggled for a time with the sabbath issue, the Adventists were very persuasive, I even believed it long after I left their church!  ;)

It was a real eye opener when I read Ray's article(s) on Paul the perfect lawkeeper and at the same time the world's worst sinner, proving that nothing in the physical realm saves or justifies without faith in Christ.


http://bible-truths.com/lake7.html

 THE CHIEF OF SINNERS WAS THE PERFECT LAW KEEPER

Now then for the shocker! In I Tim. 1:15 we read this:

"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation [in other words, what Paul is about to say is the absolute truth and worthy of considerable contemplation] that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, OF WHOM I AM CHIEF"!!

I covered these verses in great detail in a previous installment. Paul REALLY WAS the WORST, PREEMINENT SINNER THAT HAS EVER LIVED. Paul was truly "CHIEF of sinners"!! And we read where Paul was once "BLAMELESS in the keeping of the law of Moses."

Now then, WHEN was Paul (1) "BLAMELESS IN LAW KEEPING"? And WHEN was Paul (2) "the CHIEF OF SINNERS"? The answer: AT THE SAME TIME!!!

WHEN PAUL HAD REACHED THE ZENITH OF TOTAL OBEDIENCE AND ZEAL TO GOD UNDER THE OLD COVENANT LAW OF MOSES, IT CAUSED HIM AT THE SAME TIME TO BE THE WORLD’S WORST SINNER!!!

Paul was both THE MOST PERFECT LAW-KEEPER AND THE WORLD’S WORST SINNER, AT THE SAME TIME!!!

NO WONDER PAUL WROTE:

"Who also makes us competent dispensers of a NEW covenant, NOT of the letter, but OF the spirit, for the letter KILLS but the spirit gives LIFE" (II Cor. 3:6).

The Old Covenant written in Ten Commandments on stone tablets was an "ADMINISTRATION OF DEATH" (Ver. 7). And the letter will ALWAYS KILL:

"They shall put you out of the synagogues; yea, the time comes, that whosoever KILLS YOU will think that he does God service [by following the law of Moses under the Old Covenant]" (John 16:2).

To prove to God his GREATEST ZEAL, Paul persecuted and slaughtered the church, which was legal for him to do under the authority of the High Priest, Chief Priests, Elders and Council at the Temple in Jerusalem, of whom Jesus Himself said, "They SIT IN MOSES SEAT." And it was this very ZEAL FOR GOD that also made him the world’s WORST SINNER! Unbelievable! UNBELIEVABLE!! UNBELIEVABLE!!!

But we must believe it—it is the Word of God!

Amen to that!

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe


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Chris R

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Re: Punishment/OT vs. Endless torment NT?
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2007, 08:24:00 AM »

Hi Joe,

Sure, in that light i agree whole heartedly, I hadnt thought about the mercy one could show, if in fact they were the ones wronged. Very interesting!

As for the shadows these scriptures mirror, it warrants more study on my end. As for the mainstream christian doctrines, we both know how pathetic that can be.

Thanks

Chris R
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DuluthGA

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Re: Punishment/OT vs. Endless torment NT?
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2007, 03:27:55 AM »

Thanks very much Joe and Chris!

I am now copying that link #7 to the LOF series, but I'm a bit confused.  I already have a #7 copy printed out and it has a different title "Church Heresey Came Long Before Bible Errors" and appears to have different content.

Was there a different series at one time that got remade?  Because as I scan through what I'm printing out now, the topics are familiar.  Just curious and again thanks.  I want to READ IT ALL and not miss a thing!

I gave the SDAs a shot that lasted 2 years when about age 30 and can relate to still wondering about the Sabbath years later although not being in a church since then, 22 years ago.  Funny!

Great insight into OT!

Thanks so much!  Janice
« Last Edit: June 30, 2007, 03:29:40 AM by DuluthGA »
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Punishment/OT vs. Endless torment NT?
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2007, 10:45:04 AM »


I am now copying that link #7 to the LOF series, but I'm a bit confused.  I already have a #7 copy printed out and it has a different title "Church Heresey Came Long Before Bible Errors" and appears to have different content.


Hi Janice,

I am sure you know by now that the portion of LOF #7 I pasted above was near the end of the paper and the title is actually a subtitle within the article. Sorry for the confusion.

My church experience also included the SDA church for about 2 years as well, I was not very good at Adventism, most would say "miserable failure" about sums up my resume' as a member there. But like you the Sabbath was a big issue for me, not that I kept it very well (as a member) or even tried to once I left, I still did carry that belief with me for the 30+ years after leaving that church. Even after "stumbling" on to Bible Truths it took me about 6 months to understand the spiritual significance of the Sabbath vs. the physical "Sign and Seal of the Living God" as the Adventists sell it.

His Peace to you,

Joe
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Punishment/OT vs. Endless torment NT?
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2007, 10:58:05 AM »

Chris,

What you stated earlier is so true, Israel was not especially good at keeping the laws of God but they were even worse at the mercy & compassion commands the Lord spoke to them through the Prophets, the men of old.


Zec 7:9  Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Execute true judgment, and show mercy and compassions every man to his brother:
 
Zec 7:10  And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart. (It seems like some of the groundwork of the New Covenant was being made here.)

The whole chapter of Zechariah 7 deals with this hard heartedness of His people, as do many others of course. There is something about the book of Zechariah I find especially speaks to me for some reason, I am sure we all have certain chapters and books of the bible we can more readily relate to or speaks more clearly to us as individuals.

His Peace to you,

Joe
 
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Kat

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Re: Punishment/OT vs. Endless torment NT?
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2007, 11:37:06 AM »


Hi Joe,

Very good thread. 
You have brought out points I had not considered before. 
God gave Israel many laws, but He also knew they would not be able to obey these law.  And this point that I had not been so much aware of, is He also knew that they would not carry not the penalty of the laws either.
So all in all it seems to be pointing to how everybody also, knows the commandments, ignores them, and then turns a blind eye to anyone else breaking the law too.  Which lead to complacency with sin.
Interesting.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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carol70

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Re: Punishment/OT vs. Endless torment NT?
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2007, 08:45:52 PM »


So all in all it seems to be pointing to how everybody also, knows the commandments, ignores them, and then turns a blind eye to anyone else breaking the law too.  Which lead to complacency with sin.
Interesting.


Very interesting point indeed.  This often bothered me when I would go to church, the complacency of everyone's sin, and why no one ever seemed to do better, even with the threat of endless torment.  But then again, I guess everyone felt they were already "saved" and therefore, safe. 

It's interesting how many people get offended at the thought of having no free will and want to use it as an excuse to freely sin, when in reality, they're already freely sinning because they think they've already been saved!  Oh the carnal mind...
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gmik

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Re: Punishment/OT vs. Endless torment NT?
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2007, 03:07:40 AM »

Yep, the ole once saved always saved!!!

The church that I left last year has had the pastor arrested 3 times.  This last time he had to spend in jail.  Everyone there defends him and thinks they can overlook it bcz he is "such a good preacher".  My daughter still attends there and did tell me that from the pulpit he was not one bit repentant.-even- as most of the prosperity teachers are-cocky!!  He was way over the legal limit (urine test).

My daughters take is , hey, we all have a drink now and then, he just got caught!!!!  My take???  He had too much to drink and yes the police will pull over a weaving BENTLEY!!!!

OOOpss....is that gossip??  I was just trying to talk about Joes' point that we can't follow the law, or face the penalty when we get caught not following....  well, I hope you know what I mean.
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indianabob

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Re: Punishment/OT vs. Endless torment NT?
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2007, 03:35:06 AM »

Hey Gina,

Thanks for the information. Your daughter seems to be learning the 'hard way'.  Sorry.   ;)

Ministers, pastors, elders and deacons are to be carefully selected according to their demonstrated ability to keep their own selves and their family in order.  To exercise self control.  No where does the bible teach that a pastor or a deacon is just to know more scripture than anyone else in the congregation or to be an inspiring speaker so as to tickle the ears of the congregation.

If a pastor is to become in the future a judge and counselor of people needing correction to improve their life and find happiness, he needs first to govern himself.  I have nothing against having an alcoholic drink, but where is the concern for other human beings who may be on the road while the pastor is driving home.  As Paul taught us, we need to consider how our conduct will be interpreted by the observer when we decide on a certain course of action.

Thank you for the example and keep up the good work.

P.s. I never would have guessed that you had a daughter old enough to drink.

Regards, Bob from Nashville conference
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Punishment/OT vs. Endless torment NT?
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2007, 10:34:04 AM »

These words and actions by some in the clergy does not go unnoticed by our true Shepherd;

Eze 34:5  And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered.

Eze 34:8  As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock;

Zec 11:15  And the LORD said unto me, Take unto thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd.

Zec 11:17  Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

Joe
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