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Author Topic: P.J. IS RAISING SOME IMPORTANT POINTS  (Read 1948 times)

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Dean Peterman

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P.J. IS RAISING SOME IMPORTANT POINTS
« on: July 01, 2007, 09:27:17 PM »

Dear friends,

I think P.J. is raising some important points.  I find this entire discussion very helpful and interesting.  Personally, I have not come to any conclusions about all of this but it is very important to look at both sides of this issue. 

However, I would like to ask P.J. to refrain from writing that someones understanding of truth does not make sense.  Perhaps it would be better to say you have a different perspective.  I find that these kind of discussions can cause hurt feelings if we are not careful.  We should conduct these kind of discussions with love and an open mind.  Our goal should be to uncover truth and understand truth. 

I also want to thank P.J. for raising this issue.  It is the heart of what most participants in this forum believe.  Therefore, it is something that has to be discussed openly and honestly.

P.J.'s point about free will is critical to this subject.  I read all of the articles on free will and it is true that Ray teaches we do not have free will.  He also teaches that God is responsible for all evil.  According to Ray's teachings God is the one that causes us to sin.  According to Ray this is all part of God's plan to save everyone.  However, it does raise a few questions such as why God tells us to stop sinning when he is the one causing us to sin.  As Ray said in an e-mail to one of his readers: 

"By the way, we are considerably more complex than a mere puppet.  But it is true that God controls us every bit as much as a puppeteer controls a puppet. And God is not ashamed to admit that this is the case."

We all need to carefully think through these things and do our best to understand them.  Let's all keep an open mind.

Sincerely,

Dean

 

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Kat

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Re: P.J. IS RAISING SOME IMPORTANT POINTS
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2007, 10:50:06 PM »


Hi Dean,

I found these emails and I think they should help your understanding on this  :)

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2477.0.html -----------------

"Free Will" does not exist because it is a physiologicaly impossibility and the Scriptures CONDEMN any such vanity-crazed
idea.  Have you ever heard of the law of "cause and effect."  It means for every effect there is a CAUSE.  This IS scientific. Therefore all of your thoughts and actions ARE CAUSED by something. Usually something that you are not even aware of, but being caused nonetheless.  This "cause" is what is responsible for your thoughts and actions. And once something is "caused" to happen, it could not have been otherwise.  God is the FIRST CAUSE of all law and matter.  I use the Scriptures to prove to Christians that they have no free will, as they claim to actually believe the Scriptures.  I would not use the Scriptures to prove to an athiestic evolutionary scientist that he has no free will. There I would use scientific law.
God be with you,
Ray

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1493.0.html -------------------------------

Dear Charles:
As these are matters of the spirit, only God can ultimately help you to understand. I will, however, attempt to point you in the right direction.
 
I realize that almost all people when dealing with this matter of free will, unknowingly use words that are not accurate and often defamitory in trying to rectify God's works in their minds.  We cannot force God's ways in to OUR WAYS.
Yet we have all been guilty of trying to do this most of our lives.  God plainly speaks at times and at others He speaks in mysteries. Here is a plain statement from God that explains the mystrious ones:  "For My thought ARE NOT your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, says the Lord.  For as the heavens are higher than the earth, SO [in like manner] are My ways HIGHER than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts"  (Isa. 55:8-9).
 
Now there IS the answer, yet we will not accept that answer because we don't understand that answer.  Why then do you and most of the world have a problem with God and His operation of things, and I don't?  Why do you use the "CONTRADICTION" and I don't.  Is there any way to bridge this dichotomy of God's thoughts and our thoughts?  Yes there is:  "Let this MIND BE IN Y-O-U, which was also in Christ Jesus..."  (Phil. 2:5).
 
Without the mind of God, we will never understand the spiritual things of God.  They will ALWAYS seem like "foolishness" to the carnal mind. "But the natural man receives NOT the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED"  (I Cor. 2:14).
 
As it is absolutely Scripturally true that man has no free will, and therefore is always subject to the higther powers that be, when people begin to see this truth, they often balk at it and feel that God is unfair and that man is being judged for things that God MADE HIM DO AGAINST HIS WILL.  When in reality, NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH!!
 
Most of the human race has always believed that it possesses "free will."  And so as long as any man believes this falsehood, he is operating in his own little world with absolutely no grudge against God for his personal decisions.  But when he begins to see that he has no free will, he then does begin to think that he has a justifiable grudge against God for MAKING HIM SIN.  He was wrong when he thought that he had free will, and he is just as wrong when he thinks that the only alternative is that God MAKES HIM SIN AGAINST HIS OWN WILL.
 
I have stated many times that God DOES NOT MAKE OR FORCE ANYONE TO SIN AGAINST HIS OWN WILL--MAN DESIRES TO SIN, WANTS TO SIN, AND THEREFORE VOLUNTEERS TO SIN.  God did not FORCE or MAKE Eve eat of the forbidden fruit. Her own DESIRES caused her to lust and eat of the forbidden fruit.
And so the real question is: "Does God have the right to make mankind subject to the desires of their own heart?"  Think about it, as I have, for a few thousand hours, and maybe God will grant to you the spiritual understanding of this matter.
 
Hundreds of totally deceived and spiritually blind Christians have told me that: "God does not want robots to love Him--He desires people to love Him by their OWN FREE WILL."  Oh really?  And can the carnal mind indeed love God by its own nature; its own heart; its own desires?  NO IT CAN'T.  And so the very thing that Christians demand as necessary for our love for God to be genuine, is the very thing that totally disqualifies it from being genuine.  The natural mind is totally incapable of  loving God:  "For the carnal mind is enmity [deep-seated HATRED] AGAINST GOD..." (Rom. 8:7).
 
It all starts with God, not with us:  "We love Him [God] because He FIRST LOVED US"  (I John 4:19).
 
God created mankind spiritually WEAK--subject to the lusts and sins of his own heart, so that man will learn that he CANNOT love God first;  he cannot obey spiritual laws and commandments;  he cannot please God;  he cannot accomplish anything of lasting value through his wicked and deceitful heart. (Jer. 17:9).  And therefore God's ways will justify His means.  The rewards and the blessings are not even to be compared with the glory that God is creating in the human race (Rom. 8:18).
 
And so here is the answer to your question:
 
BEFORE spiritual conversion man FALSELY THINKS that he has free will and is for all intent and purpose a god unto himself.
 
AFTER spiritual conversion man will be eternally thankful that God never gave us such a foolish concept as "free will," or he would never ever reach the marvelous heights of power and glory that God has in mind for him.
 
And presently, you and some few others, are in between these two extremes of human understanding. I will pray for God to grand to you a "spirit of wisdom" so that you will comprehend and apprehend the marvelous and mysterious working of our God.
God be with you,
Ray
 
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2259.0.html -----------------------

 Dear Sherri:

    Although dictionaries partly define responsibility as accountability; and accountability as responsibility, that is not their only usage.  Here is how I mean to use the two terms taken from my first paper ever posted on bibletruths.com--Kenney's sermon on Hell and Africans:

    RESPONSIBILITY

    Not only are all the billions of heathens who never heard the gospel not responsible for their own salvation, but neither are we responsible for our salvation either. Nowhere in the Scriptures does God hold man responsible for anything. This is just another man-made doctrine that clashes with the Scriptures.

    We can use the word "responsible" in a relative sense, such as: "It is a man's responsibility to provide for his family." We all know what the word means. But even if this man doesn't provide for his family, God will hold him accountable not responsible.

    The problem with your sermon, Dr. Kennedy, is that you want to present God as a "fair" God. You know most men have lived and died never knowing God or even hearing His Name, so you try to relieve God of His responsibility for His creatures. You know that there is "no other name under Heaven by which man must be saved." You do know that, don't you? I'm betting that you do.

    But God doesn't need to be relieved of His responsibility.

    Knowing that billions of heathens have lived and died, never hearing that Name or knowing the true God, (and since you have all these man-made doctrines that clash with the Word of God), you try to "get God off the hook." And so you place the burden of responsibility for being saved on man's shoulders. God is not "on the hook." He doesn't need your help, my help, a missionary's help, or anybody else's help to save His children. God does use teachers, pastors, etc. to acquaint people with His Word. But this is a privilege for us, not a necessity for God. Remember the Scripture, that God can "raise up stones" if needed. The Scriptures tell us that all men everywhere are accountable to God, not responsible:

    "For the word of God is living and operative, and keen above any two-edged sword, and penetrating up to the parting of soul and spirit both of the articulations and marrow, and is a judge of the sentiments and thoughts of the heart. And there is not a creature which is not apparent in its sight. Now all is naked and bare to the eyes of Him to Whom [God] we are accountable" (Heb. 4:12-13).

    Even the King James Version, with its thousands of discrepancies, does not even once in its fifteen hundred pages, use the word "responsible" or "responsibility."

    Yet churches evolve whole doctrines around this word "responsibility." Things like: "you're responsible for going to hell" or "it's your responsibility to accept Christ" or "the age of responsibility" or "everyone is responsible for his or her deeds." Strange to make so big a deal of a word that does not even appear in Scripture.

    When a minor (a child) commits a crime, even the unjust courts of our land do not hold him responsible. Is his crime simply overlooked? No. He must give an account for his actions. He is accountable. He might be the victim of a broken home, with a drunkard father, a prostitute mother, drug-hooked sisters, and gang-member brothers. Thus, he is not considered responsible. Nonetheless, he is still accountable.

    "Now I am saying to you that, for every idle declaration which men shall be speaking they shall be rendering an account concerning it in the day of judging" (Matt. 12:36).

    "For all of us shall be presented at the dais of God ... Consequently then, each of us shall be giving account concerning himself to God" (Rom. 14:11-12).

    Read the dozens of scriptures where we are likened not only to "children," but to "little children." God is dealing with mankind as minors. He holds them accountable, but nowhere does God hold man responsible. Show me one Scripture.

    The church can only see the relative in God's word. They fail to see that God is behind everything in the "absolute."

    " ... according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will." (Eph. 1:11--Concordant Literal New Testament).

    The only One in the universe Who is responsible [able to respond] is God And so, God takes full responsibility for everything even though He holds man accountable for his deeds. Man is accountable for his deeds, not because he could have done otherwise, but because he thinks he is responsible through his presumed free will. Because he actually did the things he did. However, the Scriptures tell us that, "not in all" is this knowledge. Puny man really thinks he is in control of his own destiny. He really thinks he is a "god unto himself." And the Christian Church hasn't done very much to educate him out of this dilemma."

    Hope this helps you,

    God be with you,

    Ray
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skydreamers

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Re: P.J. IS RAISING SOME IMPORTANT POINTS
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2007, 02:15:51 AM »



Hi Dean, welcome to the Forum!

It took me quite a while to wrap my head around the truth that we have no free will.  Even when I knew it was true, I still could not quite understand how we are still held accountable.

The way that Ray explains it above is really good.  God also may enhance your understanding through the daily events of your life...so pay attention! :)  I wanted to add, as an example, how God deepened my understanding of the whole responsible/accountable issue.

One of the things I have recognized from life experience is that it is the rare person who changes his ways without accountability.  A criminal who continues to get away with his crimes doesn't think to change what he's doing...it's working for him.  It's not until he is caught and put in a position to pay for what he has done that he begins to embark on an understanding of the consequences of his actions.  That's why prisons are better called "rehabilitation centers".  Granted, not all criminals come out of prison rehabilitated, but the principal is there.  God's rehabilitation center will be 100% successful. 

So being held accountable creates circumstances in which we can now learn from what we have done.  It is actually part of God's loving teaching method.  We do, and then we learn.  Eventually, through enough circumstances, and through the work of God's spirit on our consciences we will come to have  an understanding of how what we are doing is hurting us and others, and our God.  For it is ultimately against Him that we sin.  This is the process by which God molds us to love him...we eventually turn away (repent) from our sins when we simply cannot bear the pain of what we are doing...and only God can bring us to that point.  To love God, we must understand all that He is, and all that He is not.

God has shown me this principle of accountability in my own life, through my children.  (God teaches me so much through them!).

When my son was 2 and he snatches away a toy from another child, he is still acting on his self-centered impulses, (his instant gratification impulses), without regard to others. When I ask him what he has done, he readily tells me, "I took the toy because I wanted it!" He has just given me an "account" of what he's done, but it lacks an understanding that his actions are wrong, or even an understanding of why they are wrong. This has however, now given me an opportunity to explain, teach and discipline.

A few short years later he has now experienced having toys taken from him several times (he knows what it feels like) and he's taken toys from others and continues to be disciplined. Now he snatches a toy from his sister, and I ask him to give an account of what he's done. His reaction is quite different. He now knows what he's done is wrong, and so he tells me ashamedly, eyes down, and turns to his sister to give back the toy and apologize. (Don't get me wrong, things like this don't always go that smoothly in my household, but you get the idea).

This account of what he's done is quite different from the first. He still has done something wrong and discipline is still required, but the child is learning and something is changing in his heart. He feels bad. He's ashamed. (Or he's just still at the point that he feels bad that he's been caught...). Obviously this is not a perfect example. But what I am trying to show is that with knowledge and experience we are held more and more accountable, and this gives God a measuring scale by which to discipline us. If my child repeatedly disobeys when he knows better, you can be sure the discipline gets severe until he "gets it". But a two year old hasn't a clue, they are acting on instinct, and so you discipline accordingly. 

Luke 12:47-48
And that servant's who knew his lord's will and did not prepare, nor did according to His will, shall be beaten with many stripes
But he not knowing, and doing things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes, For to whom much is given, of him much shall be required, and to whom men have committed much, of him them will ask the more.


But the judgment of the parent as to what kind and measure of discipline is needed is the very thing that TEACHES them right from wrong.  The pulls of the carnal flesh cannot be changed by a carnal parent, though we are in a position of teachers of whatever we have learned....I'm sure I'm not the first parent that realized some children are painfully slow at understanding why they should not repeat undesirable behavior.  We can have some success at changing the behavior of our children, but we are not always successful at changing their hearts.  Only God, when he chooses, can give a carnal child, or a carnal parent, the ability to overcome....He can and does change both our behavior AND our hearts.  He is our spiritual Father who will not fail us, nor will he run out of ways of effective discipline. 

How you account for what you have done shows the reason for either further discipline, or reward. Accordingly you will be judged.

The giving of an account is for OUR purposes, not for God. It reveals something to US. God already knows us inside and out, what we have done.

I'm sure most of us know that having to stand before the one you've sinned against and give an explanation of your actions, is a humbling experience. And since all sin is really first and foremost against our creator, giving an account to God will be the ultimate humbling experience...most certainly every knee will bow in awe when humanity finally realizes and understands the full weight of their evil deeds.

But all this is of God, just as surely as good deeds are from God, and when we see how we were the instruments of the wonderful works God performed through us, we will likewise rejoice beyond measure. All praise and Glory to the Heavenly Father!

So we are held accountable, for without it we would never learn, or change our ways.  It is a painful process, but it is the most effective one.  There is a deepness to this that is beyond simple prison bars being shut in our faces.  This is the deep love of a Father who will not let his children stay as deluded children...He will make sure all his children will grow and learn and grow some more and learn some more, and suffer the consequences and learn some more and get stronger.....it is seemingly endless from our perspective right now, but there is an end where we will reach full maturity.

The Elect are privilege to be brought through this process right now in the flesh...the rest will experience it in the next age.  But the process remains the same.  The Elect, through present circumstances and through a strong pulling in their spirit and their conscience by God, are repenting.  With every truth I learn, it gets harder and harder to remain stagnant and to continue walking in sin.  I still sin, oh ya, but God is holding me spiritually accountable and it hurts!!  It is not a peaceful existence to constantly be  held in your own conscience accountable...sometimes I just don't want to deal with it...but oh boy, I sure know God will make certain that I DO deal with it.  And he will make certain that ALL his children deal with it.

Peace to you, and may God bless you with understanding,
Diana

« Last Edit: July 02, 2007, 02:24:15 AM by skydreamers »
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Dean Peterman

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Re: P.J. IS RAISING SOME IMPORTANT POINTS
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2007, 08:31:27 AM »

Thank you Kat and Diana,

Diana I greatly appreciate all of the time and thoughtfulness you put into your explanation.  You are very kind. 

Sincerely,

Dean

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Chris R

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Re: P.J. IS RAISING SOME IMPORTANT POINTS
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2007, 09:39:57 AM »

Hi Dean,

In your note you say; "According to Ray's teachings God is the one that causes us to sin."

I have to disagree with you, As i have never read this in Rays writings,  God Created Evil , but God does not cause our sins, we volunteer to sin. While God is responsible for our "sinful state" [Rom 8-20] We are still accountable for our sins.

This may sound like a contradiction, but I assure you it is not. This is why many are called but few are chosen,  "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth". [2Tim 3:7]

God knowing we will sin, is far different than God causing us TO sin. "But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." [Matt 12:36].

Who is it that will give an account?...that's right WE will . And if God caused all our sins Why would we then give an account for them?

I'll admit it is a hard concept to understand, Hope this helps a little.

Peace

Chris R



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carol70

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Re: P.J. IS RAISING SOME IMPORTANT POINTS
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2007, 11:01:02 AM »

Dean,

God does not cause us to sin.  He sets up the circumstances, sometimes putting us in spiritual prisons, and we respond accordingly.

Have you ever been in a jam and tried to figure a way out?  Think of all the thoughts and options that ran through your mind.  Were they all honorable?  I bet you a dollar they weren't.  God has me going through this trial right now and I'm very ashamed of some of the thoughts that keep going through my mind, just so I can be done with it.  But even if I never follow through with any of these thoughts, it's still sin.  It's ALL sin.  That's where sin starts, in the heart, and God is not causing me to think and feel the way that I do, at least I don't think he is!  I felt pretty crappy when I realized how weak and wicked my thoughts could be.  I'm so thankful to God that its not his intention that I follow through with any of it but I'm no better than the next guy who DOES follow through.  It's all up to God.

Free will - nope.  Free sin - all day, every day.

Love and peace,
Carol
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hillsbororiver

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Re: P.J. IS RAISING SOME IMPORTANT POINTS
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2007, 11:50:04 AM »

Hi Carol,

You make some extremely astute points!

We are to experience these thoughts and also to experience the results of our carnal actions. It is a true trial to desire godliness but yet think like a sinner, it is a fiery trial that takes faith, perserverence and a humble spirit, these trials/lessons will show us how absolutely dependent we are on God, that no good thing comes from our natural desires or thoughts.

When we get to the place where we realize this and that only through His grace and chastising (not punishment) will we have our own (not free) will alligned with His will, this is the plan and purpose for all creation, to have our will alligned with the will of God.

This is not an overnight process, in most cases it takes years and years to come to the point of actually hating the natural state and truly loving the spiritual state, it is a continuing process to get where we pray not only to physically keep from certain sins we are particularly prone to but even to pray for deliverence from the thoughts that germinate in our hearts that lead to sin.

This experience of evil will eventually deepen our love for good. All must pass through this purifying fire to be purged and refined into Sons and Daughters of the Almighty God.

It is an awesome thing to contemplate but it is not an easy journey.

Kat used the following scriptures before in another thread that dealt with this experience of joy and sweetness upon tasting (hearing) His Word and the bitter experience it can be to digest (live) His Word, this is all for our eventual salvation with the rewards being far superior to what we can even imagine! Just for starters try imagining what a pure joy it would be to have a heart and mind that was totally pure, free from even a carnal thought, never to be weak (in spirit) again!


Rev 10:9  And I went unto the angel and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.
 
Rev 10:10  And I took the little book out of the angel's hand and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

We all must experience the bitterness eventually if not now.

His Peace to you,

Joe







 
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