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Author Topic: Sacred Secrets  (Read 8351 times)

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hillsbororiver

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Sacred Secrets
« on: July 06, 2007, 01:53:35 PM »


This morning I was reading the "Contradictions" thread and a verse Beau & Darren posted jumped off the page at me.

1Co 2:7  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: (KJV)

At first it was the translation of 'world' for 'ages' as I remembered Rotherham's to say, when I consulted my Rotherham's bible another quirk of translation struck me.

1Cor 2:7 But we speak God's wisdom, in a sacred secret, that hidden [wisdom] which God marked out beforehand, before the ages, for our glory. (Rotherham's)

A sacred secret! A bit more profound than 'mystery' don't you think? 

In contemporary English the word mystery has come to mean incomprehensible, beyond understanding, unknowable (look it up) while sacred secret (Gr. mustarion)  means something that while outside of our range of natural apprehension (hidden) it can be made known only by divine revelation, and is made known in a manner and at a time appointed by God.

Before creation God planned for only a few to know His secrets, to know His Truth, to know the real Messiah, Jesus Christ! Not a man made version but the true Creator and Saviour of all men!

What a humbling yet incredibly exciting thing to contemplate, something we should really think about when we are troubled by family and friends not being able to grasp the things we clearly see now. We just cannot change anyone's mind in regard to these sacred secrets!


It is quite apparent that while Strong's definition of mustarion touches on the 'sacred secret' it emphasizes the 'mystery' which loses some of the real impact of this (and many others) verse. When seeing the Word mystery again as you study try interjecting sacred secret in its place or get a hold of a Rotherham's Version as another study aid.

Thank you Beau & Darren for spurring me on here, I also did not want to hijack the other thread!

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe




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Brett

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Re: Sacred Secrets
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2007, 03:50:50 PM »

Hi Joe,

I like your post. It will be good thread. I was thinking about 'secret', like Joseph and his brothers who sold him to Egyptians. If they know what is secret, they would back off and not sell their brother (Joseph) to Egyptians. Joseph did not know why it happened until their brothers came to buy food, finally he now see what God's plan purpose for. I don't know if that is fit in your post, just another idea of the story of Joseph. I think it is similar like God's chosen people to little back off anything that want to control Christendom, pagans, governments, politics, military, etc, etc. because they now know God's secret for His purpose in the world.

I'm not sure if it fit your post, but just if I have thought in my mind, say something.

Enjoy! :D

Brett

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UncleBeau

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Re: Sacred Secrets
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2007, 04:26:13 PM »

Hey Joe,

Both of those versus where 'mystery' and 'sacred secret' are found are followed by a comma and then both explained as that/the hidden wisdom. So I'm assuming that all three terms are to be seen as synonymous, correct? I agree though about a mystery and a 'sacred' secret to have different different purposes. Good post though, Joe! It gave me something to include studying along with it.
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Sacred Secrets
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2007, 04:57:01 PM »

Hello Brett,

Your post fits perfectly, that is why the elect (types and shadows of the elect included) are 'peculiar' they just see life and events in a different 'Light' than does the world.

Hi Beau,

Think of mystery as God Himself, without beginning, without end, infinite. We just can't wrap our minds around that concept. A true mystery.

A secret is something that has yet to be revealed but when it is it is understood, take for instance if you were having a surprise party for your wife, all the guests invited would know what was happening, understanding exactly what was going to transpire, your wife would not have a clue until it was revealed to her at the time and place the party occurred.

So it is with the elect, they are given this hidden wisdom (not a mystery) at the time and place God ordains.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
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eggi

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Re: Sacred Secrets
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2007, 05:07:36 PM »

Good food for thought, Joe!

How does Mystery Babylon fit into this?

And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. (Rev 17:5 KJV)


Perhaps there is both a positive and negative side of this?

God bless you,
Eirik
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Sacred Secrets
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2007, 05:17:41 PM »

Hi Eirik,

I see it as an enigma, a mystery because of the confusion of her many doctrines. Worshipping a god that is impotent and not able to save his own creation even though he really wants to, he just can't. The mystery/confusion of the Word of God saying one thing and the god of Babylon saying something different.

Babylon is confusion, but those within her cannot see it. That is one of the reasons why I believe the 'mystery/(musterion)' is attached to her name, those who are called out of her see it (sacred secret from God) clearly those still partaking of her do not.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe   
« Last Edit: July 07, 2007, 12:27:46 PM by hillsbororiver »
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YellowStone

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Re: Sacred Secrets
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2007, 05:31:56 PM »

Hi Joe,

Thanks for looking that up and posting what you found. I would agree that a 'sacred secret' does indeed cast a different shadow than simply a mystery, even although both are profound. Just to satisfy my curisosity I pulled out my Hebrew Greek Bible and it is literal word translation and the word translated Mystery is mustêriô

This word seems to denote mystery. Yet I find that I agree with what you posted regarding Rotherham's translation. I believe Sacred Sectre fits a whole lot better in the context (I know bad word) given than the word mystery. At least as how it pertains to understanding today. Because it sure is a mystery why gas prices are so high. :)

Thanks Joe,

Darren
« Last Edit: July 06, 2007, 07:15:31 PM by YellowStone »
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Sacred Secrets
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2007, 05:54:07 PM »

Hi Darren,

Here is a bit from how and why Joseph Rotherham translated the way he did;


In Rotherham’s Emphasized Bible, Joseph B. Rotherham, who was a biblical scholar of the first rank, translated musterion as “sacred secret.” We studied the subject and have come to agree with Rotherham, and our reasoning for using “sacred secret” as the translation of the Greek word musterion is presented below.

Although many Bible versions render the Greek word musterion as “mystery,” that is not a good translation. In fact, “mystery” is a transliteration of the word musterion, not a translation of it. “Transliteration” is when the letters of a word in one language are brought across into another language. The prefix “trans” means “across,” and the Latin littera means “letter.” Thus, transliteration is literally “bringing across the letters.” In contrast, “translation” is bringing the meaning of a word in one language across into another language. If we are going to have the meaning of the Greek brought into English, we must translate, not transliterate.

Musterion: In the NT it denotes, not the mysterious (as with the Eng. Word), but that which, being outside the range of unassisted natural apprehension, can be made known only by divine revelation, and is made known in a manner and at a time appointed by God.

But whereas “mystery” may mean, and in contemporary usage often does mean, a secret for which no answer can be found, this is not the connotation of the term mysterion in classical and biblical Gk. In the NT, mysterion signifies a secret which is being, or even has been, revealed, which is also divine in scope, and needs to be made known by God to men through his Spirit.

But while the musterion thus implies something hidden, and inaccessible to the unaided reason, and usually also of weighty import, it by no means necessarily denotes anything strictly mysterious and incomprehensible. The fact or truth, though requiring to be revealed, may, when revealed, be of a very elementary character.

Mystery in the NT does not deal with the unknowable, but with what is imparted by revelation.

The mystery of the New Testament has been described as an ‘open secret’; matters previously kept secret in God’s eternal purposes have now been or are being revealed (Eph. 3:3-5; 1 Cor. 2:7-8).

Numerous other sources give the same information, and the point is that the word musterion does not mean “mystery,” and should not be translated that way. Although God kept His Sacred Secret a secret for years, it has now been made known. There are a number of verses showing that a musterion can be revealed by God and understood by mankind. Because it is important to understand this point, I will quote quite a few of them.

Matthew 13:11b (KJV)
…it is given unto you to know the mysteries [musterion] of the kingdom of heaven….

Romans 16:25b and 26a (NIV)
(25b) …the mystery [musterion] hidden for long ages past,
(26a) but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God….

Ephesians 1:9 (NIV)
And he made known to us the mystery [musterion] of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,

Colossians 1:26 (NIV)
the mystery [musterion] that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints.

Now that we have established that musterion does not mean “mystery,” and that a musterion can be revealed and understood, we will show why we translate it as “sacred secret” and not just “secret.” The Greek language uses musterion for secrets in the religious sphere, but has another word, kruptos, for secrets that are in the secular realm. [9] The word kruptos appears in many places in the New Testament. For example, Jesus said to give alms in secret (Matt. 6:4-KJV); he taught that every secret thing will be brought to light (Mark 4:22-KJV); he went to Jerusalem in secret (John 7:10-KJV); God will judge men’s secrets (Rom. 2:16); and, prophecy reveals the secrets of the heart (1 Cor. 14:24 and 25).

The verb krupto also appears many times in the New Testament. Examples include: a city on a hill cannot be hidden (Matt. 5:14); the wicked servant hid his talent in the ground (Matt. 25:25); a Christian’s new life is hidden with Christ in God (Col. 3:3); and, Moses’ parents hid him after he was born (Heb. 11:23).

From the above information we see that translating musterion as “secret,” which some versions do in some places, does not bring out the true meaning of the Greek text. Anyone reading the Greek New Testament immediately understands whether God is speaking of a secular secret (kruptos) or a sacred secret (musterion), and a good translation brings out that difference. When a version translates both words as “secret,” the truth that God so clearly communicated in the Greek text is lost. When translators use “secret” for kruptos and “mystery” for musterion, the words are not confused, but the English Bible is made to say something that it just does not say—that the things of God are mysterious.

Is there a way to translate kruptos and musterion such that the meaning of the Greek words is communicated clearly into English? Yes, there is. There is not one time in the New Testament where musterion cannot be fittingly translated as “sacred secret.” If we translate kruptos as “secret,” and musterion as “sacred secret,” the meaning of the Greek is communicated clearly, and we English-speaking people are in a better position to know and understand what God has said in His Word.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

 
 
 

 
 

 
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Sacred Secrets
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2007, 06:22:34 PM »


A great find Joe! Thanks for sharing. :D

To add to Eiriks thoughts... :D

Rev 17 : 7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore dist thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery (sacred secret...musterion) of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
 
For me this points to the fact that the origin and nature of evil is yet unrevealed to many. Many believe that Lucifer is a project that God got wrong and that evil is without the jurisdiction of God. God creates both good and evil but not many accept, understand or believe it! :D

Isaiah 45 : 7 ......I create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Peace be to you

Arcturus :)
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YellowStone

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Re: Sacred Secrets
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2007, 07:14:26 PM »

Hi Joe,

That was an awesome find, that being the differences between Transliteration and Translation.

This also explains why my Greek bible has it wrong, for it clearly states that it is a Word for Word rendering of the Greek text.

Thank you so much for taking the time to research that and post it.

Love in Christ,

Darren
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iris

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Re: Sacred Secrets
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2007, 10:37:49 PM »

I don't think I can add anything more.  :)
This is a really great thread!
Thanks everyone for sharing.


Iris
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Chris R

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Re: Sacred Secrets
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2007, 09:53:31 AM »

Hi Joe,

As usuall i'm struggling, maybe you can help me.


"The mystery" [this is not literal--it was a mystery until God tells us that one thing really means or represents another and DIFFERENT THING] [Ray smith]

Mystery musterion Babylon the Great, mother of harlots, and the abominations of the earth." [Rev 17-5]

How do we reconcile "SACRED SECRET Babylon the great"
What is Sacred?..."to make holy", devoted or dedicated to a deity

Sometimes i can be a little dence, Looks like todays no different.

What of the riches and knowledge of God... can they be revealed?
Are some, and not others?

O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out! [Rom 11:33]

Unto me,[Paul] who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; [Eph 3:8]

Looks like its still a musterion to me...

thanks for the thread.

Chris R
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Sacred Secrets
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2007, 10:12:19 AM »

Hi Chris,

Even though prophecies of Jesus were all through the OT His divinity was a sacred secret to Israel when He appeared on the scene, it was only when the Father opened the eyes of the apostles that they clearly saw who He really was. It was no mystery but the 'secret' had to be revealed (by God) before it was seen.

Mat 16:17  And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Luk 10:21  In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

There are Doctors of Divinity, Theology Phd.s, and religious scholars that have no clue as to what the 'sacred secret of (Mystery) Babylon is, yet we have under educated simple folks like me who can see it clearly as the seat of Satan and where this seat resides. God has been gracious enough to let me in on this secret, it has nothing to do with unraveling a 'mystery' from my own intellegence.

I hope this helps some,

His Peace to you,

Joe 
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Sacred Secrets
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2007, 10:39:57 AM »


What a humbling yet incredibly exciting thing to contemplate, something we should really think about when we are troubled by family and friends not being able to grasp the things we clearly see now. We just cannot change anyone's mind in regard to these sacred secrets!


Actually the purpose of this topic was for those (especially newer members) who become frustrated when people just don't get the things they attempt to show them about the real Good News. We should see and understand that we are not capable of letting anyone in on God's 'secrets' until God Himself reveals them. The folks being spoken to don't really see any 'mystery' about the doctrines they believe, they only think that anyone that does not agree with them is deceived.

His Peace to you,

Joe
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Sacred Secrets
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2007, 11:21:06 AM »

Hi Joe,

Hello again Chris,

As usuall i'm struggling, maybe you can help me.


"The mystery" [this is not literal--it was a mystery until God tells us that one thing really means or represents another and DIFFERENT THING] [Ray smith]

Doesn't it fit to say this was God's secret until He reveals it?

Mystery musterion Babylon the Great, mother of harlots, and the abominations of the earth." [Rev 17-5]

How do we reconcile "SACRED SECRET Babylon the great"
What is Sacred?..."to make holy", devoted or dedicated to a deity

Rev 17:5 and upon her forehead a name written, a secret: Babylon the great, the Mother of the Harlots and of the Abominations of the earth. (Rotherham's)

Sometimes i can be a little dence, Looks like todays no different.

What of the riches and knowledge of God... can they be revealed?
Are some, and not others?

O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out! [Rom 11:33]

Substitute 'untraceable' for 'unsearchable', unsearchable seems to imply imply that it is forbidden to search for this knowledge, untraceable says that we are presently incapable of tracking it down, it must be revealed!

[S: (adj) untraceable (incapable of being traced or tracked down) "an untraceable source"]

Rotherham's uses untraceable but even in Strong's we have;

G421
ἀνεξιχνίαστος
anexichniastos
an-ex-ikh-nee'-as-tos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and a presumed derivative of a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2487; not tracked out, that is, (by implication) untraceable: - past finding out, unsearchable.



Unto me,[Paul] who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; [Eph 3:8]

Untracable is actually the primary Gr. definition,

Looks like its still a musterion to me...

thanks for the thread.

Chris R

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Kat

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Re: Sacred Secrets
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2007, 11:48:54 AM »


Hi Joe,

Great topic and you have really brought out some points to consider.
I was looking at this scripture which you had posted earlier;

Col 1:26  the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints.

The next verse also shows what “sacred secret” mystery is;

v.27  To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

I think the mystery with Babylon is that they 'think' they have Christ and will be greatly surprised when the real Christ is revealed to them.

mercy, peace, and love
Kathy

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hillsbororiver

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Re: Sacred Secrets
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2007, 11:54:13 AM »

Yes Kat!

God's secret between Him and His elect!  ;)

His Peace to you Sister,

Joe
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Sacred Secrets
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2007, 12:44:27 PM »

To confirm:  :D

1 Cor 2 : 9 But as it is written, Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God has prepared for them that love him. (Mystery Babylon leaves this scripture hanging and they do not proceed to the next verses IN ORDER TO BYPASS OPPOSITION AND DISARM CRITISISM that says...) 10. But God has REVEALED THEM TO US by His Spirit:...11. What person perceives, knows and understands what passes through a man's thoughts except the man's own spirit within him? Just so NO ONE discerns, comes to know and comprehend the thoughts of God EXCPT THE SPIRIT OF GOD. 12 Now we have not received the spirit that belongs to the world, but the Spirit Who is from God, GIVEN TO US, that we might realize and comprehend and appreciate the gifts of divine favor and blessing so freely and lavishly bestowed on us by God. 13 And we are setting these truths forth in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, combining and interpreting spiritual truths with spiritual language to those who possess the Holy Spirit. 14 BUT the natural, nonspiritual man DOES NOT ACCEPT OR WELCOME OR ADMIT INTO HIS HEART THE GIFTS AND TEACHINGS AND REVELATIONS OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD for they are folly, meaningless nonsense to him; and he is INCAPABLE OF KNOWING THEM, OF PROGRESSIVELY RECOGNIZING, UNDERSTANDING, AND BECOMING BETTER ACQUAINTED WITH THEM, because they are SPIRITUALLLY DISCERNED AND ESTIMATED AND APPRECIATIED. 15 But the spiritual man TRIES ALL THINGS, HE EXAMINES, INVESTIGATES, INQUIRES INTO, QUESTIONS, AND DISCERNS ALL THINGS....... :D ;D 8).....

Lovely thread Joe! ;D :D

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
« Last Edit: July 07, 2007, 12:47:49 PM by Arcturus »
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Brett

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Re: Sacred Secrets
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2007, 02:02:03 PM »


Hi Joe,

Great topic and you have really brought out some points to consider.
I was looking at this scripture which you had posted earlier;

Col 1:26  the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints.

The next verse also shows what “sacred secret” mystery is;

v.27  To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

I think the mystery with Babylon is that they 'think' they have Christ and will be greatly surprised when the real Christ is revealed to them.

mercy, peace, and love
Kathy



Great comment with verses, Kat! It is very new to me ;).

Brett :D
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Sacred Secrets
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2007, 12:55:28 PM »

Hello again,

It may seem I am beating this subject to death but the (Rotherham) translation substituting secret/sacred secret for mystery has really amplified what God is doing for a very few people in this age. The Creator of the universe is sharing a secret with the not many wise or noble, no, he has chosen the "weak things of the world to confound the mighty" (1Cor 1:26-28).

God being no respector of persons can (and does) reveal His secrets to whomever he chooses, low IQ and uneducated are just as qualified as PhD.s, with genius level IQ's.

This knowledge of Him is not some mystery to be unraveled by science or mathmatical formulas or religious Doctorates, or computer programs, this knowledge comes from the Creator of the Universe whispering into your spiritual ear. This to me makes it even more personal and more humbling.

As I stated earlier in the thread my primary purpose in bringing this topic up was the consternation of some members, notably Dean & mrsnacks when they attempt sharing the 'Good News' with family and friends, this spiritual wisdom is only obtained spiritually and all the great arguments and the scriptural references in the world will not penetrate the carnal mind until He deems it time to open their eyes and ears, we can be an example we can give an encouraging word but we cannot make anyone understand until it is their time to understand.

The following 22 verses are all verses that the KJV translates as 'mystery,' I provided the Rotherham's to compare if anyone is so inclined.
     

Mark 4:11 And he was saying unto them [To you] the sacred secret hath been given, of the Kingdom of God, whereas  [to them who are outside] in parables are all things coming to pass,-that
Mark 4:12 They may surely look and yet not see, and surely hear and yet not understand, Lest once they should return , and it be forgiven them.

Romans 11:25 For I wish not, ye should be ignorant brethren of this sacred secret, Lest within yourselves ye be presumptuous, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the full measure of the nations shall come in.

Romans 16:25 Now unto him who hath power to establish you, according to my glad-message even the proclaimation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of a sacred secret, in age past times kept silent.

1Cor 2:7 But we speak God's wisdom, in a sacred secret, that hidden wisdom, which God marked out beforehand, before the ages for our glory,
 
1Cor 15:51 Lo! A sacred secret unto you do I declare: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.

Eph 1:9 Making known to us the sacred secrets of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him.

Eph 3:3 How that by way of revelation was made known unto methe sacred secret , even as I before wrote in brief.

Eph 3:4 Respecting which ye can [by reading] perceive my discernment in the sacred secret of the Christ,
 
Eph 3:9 And to bring to light-What is the administration of the sacred secret which had been hidden away from the ages in God, who did all things create,

Eph 5:32 This sacred secret is great, I however, am speaking as to Christ and as to the assembly,

Eph 6:19 That unto me may be given discourse in the opening of my mouth [with freedom of utterance] to make known the sacred secret of the glad-message.

Col 1:26 The sacred secret which had been hidden away from the ages and from the generations, but now hath been made manifest unto his saints.

Col 1:27 Unto whom God hath been pleased to make known what is the glorious wealth of this sacred secret among the nations, which is Christ in you, the hope of the glory.

Col 2:2 In order that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, even unto all the riches of the full assurance of their understanding, unto a personal knowledge of the sacred secret of God,- [Christ]

Col 2:3 In whom are all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge hidden away.

Col 4:3 Praying, at the same time [for us also]that God would open unto us a door for the word, so we may speak the sacred secret of the Christ-for the sake of which also I am in bonds,

2Th 2:7 For the secret of lawlessness already is inwardly working itself,-only until he that restraineth at present shall be gone out of the midst:

2Th 2:8 And then shall be revealed the lawless one,-whom the Lord [Jesus] will slay with the Spirit of his mouth, and paralyse with the forthshining of his Presence:

1Ti 3:9 Holding the sacred secret of the faith in a pure conscience.

1Ti 3:16 And confessedly great is the sacred secret of godliness,- who was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, was made visable unto messengers, was proclaimed among nations, was believed on in the world,was taken up in glory.

Rev 1:20 The sacred secret of the seven stars which thou sawest upon my right hand, and the seven lamps of gold;- The seven stars are messengers of the seven assemblies, and the seven lamps are seven assemblies.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the sounding of the seventh messenger as soon as he is about to blow his trumpetthen shall have been completed the sacred secret of God as he told the good-news unto his own servants the prophets.

Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead a name is written, a secret: Babylon the great has fallen, the Mother of the Harlots and of the Abominations of the earth.

Rev 17:7 And the messenger said unto me- Wherefore was thou astonished? I will tell thee the secret of the woman, and the wild beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and the ten horns.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe





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