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Interesting point about Judas on Eternal Hell

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lilitalienboi16:
An athiest asked a group of christians this, and none had an answer, i merely was astonished at the way God uses those who don't even believe in His Word, to shame the pharisees and all of babylon

Here is what he said, let me know what you think, and if anyone would care to pass this along to ray as perhaps ray has not thought of this much, but it would be another great argument against eternal torment.

Jesus only suffered while dying on the cross, and then ascended into Heaven, while Judas must suffer for eternity in Hell, then Judas has suffered much more for the sins of humanity than Jesus.

Why has Christianity condemed this man? He had no free will as Jesus and God essentially planned for this to occur, without him betraying Jesus how different would history be. There may not be any Christianity! Yet he has been sent for enternity to hell in the bottom circle.

Interesting huh? Its a great point, do u all agree, or is this point flawed in some way? Do you think christians could make an argument against this, or is this pretty much a sealed deal here, if you believe in eternal torment?

Let me know! I'm interested in your thoughts.

God bless,

Alex

musicman:
The atheists position is strong when asking such a question of churchians.  They have no answer.  They can't provide anything to  give hope to the nonbeliever.  Their answers are usually more swill to drive away anybody with a conscience.  Every atheists site I've seen just about parrots the problem of a loving god burning people forever.  I am wondering how the atheist knew that Judas had no freewill.  Even the best scientists don't get that.

Dean Peterman:
Dear Alex,

This probably would not persuade a Calvinist (most of modern Protestanism comes from the Calvinist tradition or at least was strongly influenced by it) since they believe that God chose prior to the creation of the world who would go to hell.  None of this has anything to do with fairness.  It has to do with justice. Of course in their mind this is justice.  God chooses and does not have to be fair he only has to be just.   You have to remember Calvinists believe that everyone deserves to go to hell and God arbitarily chooses who will not go to hell.  This argument only works for people who think God is fair.  (Note: This is not my belief but I have read a lot of material on Calvinism and this is how they see it.) 

John Calvin had one of his opponents burned at the stake, and yes, he thought this was justified.  Most of what is believed by Christians today was thought up by people like Calvin.  I could show you websites where the people would say to you something like, "Alex, God does whatever he wants to do and if he wants to use Judas and then send him to hell it is his right to do that. 

This is my take on it.

Sincerely,

Dean

lilitalienboi16:

--- Quote from: Dean Peterman on July 11, 2007, 06:06:00 PM ---Dear Alex,

This probably would not persuade a Calvinist (most of modern Protestanism comes from the Calvinist tradition or at least was strongly influenced by it) since they believe that God chose prior to the creation of the world who would go to hell.  None of this has anything to do with fairness.  It has to do with justice. Of course in their mind this is justice.  God chooses and does not have to be fair he only has to be just.   You have to remember Calvinists believe that everyone deserves to go to hell and God arbitarily chooses who will not go to hell.  This argument only works for people who think God is fair.  (Note: This is not my belief but I have read a lot of material on Calvinism and this is how they see it.) 

John Calvin had one of his opponents burned at the stake, and yes, he thought this was justified.  Most of what is believed by Christians today was thought up by people like Calvin.  I could show you websites where the people would say to you something like, "Alex, God does whatever he wants to do and if he wants to use Judas and then send him to hell it is his right to do that. 

This is my take on it.

Sincerely,

Dean

--- End quote ---

Ty dean, the thought of such doctrin discusts me.

Ty you both for your imput.

Anyone else?

Shmeggly:
Great post!  That is something that had always bothered me; people in the bible like pharoah and Judas who were made for what they did, and they were made to do it.  I didn't understand it in the context of an eternal hell, but I understand it now. 
Also, Judas was repentant and threw the silver back at the priests, and was very remorseful....and then he went and hanged himself.  How much more sorry can you be?  So the people that still believe in hell should at least acknowledge that he was repentant....

There was a question awhile ago about who we'd like to speak to from the bible days....the first thought that came into my head was Judas.  Yes, there are a lot more, but he was the first to pop into my noggin!  Without his betrayal, the kiss etc....he was an intimate of Jesus, yet was called upon to betray Him and his (Judas') friends....what anguish in his soul to realize what he had done. 

Anyway, your post of what the atheist said is very thought provoking....I will be bringing that up to a few people to just watch their mouths hang open!!! :o  James

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