What should our attitude be about success ?

[mrsnacks]

This probably goes out to the younger generation more so.

The world says that one needs to put in hard work and pursue ones dreams of success. Like a pro athlete is there in the spotlight because of many many hours spent practicing on the basketball court, or in the batting cages etc. They have eaten and slept their sport and that is what it takes to make it. Yes money and fame are the rewards. Look at the music or entertainment industry. One has to have talent and then the what with to attain success.

Now I ask where is the Lord in all this ? He tells us to seek ye first the Kingdom of God first. And then all these things will be added . What are all these things ? Some say our needs such as water, food and shelter. IS that it ?

Is the pursuit of success carnal and of the flesh ? If a Michael Jordan spent 12 hours a day in the Word and pursuing God instead of on the basketball court - he would've never achieved being one of the best players ever. So what should everyone do ? Is there a conflict here?

This not only goes for sports or entertainment but in the business world or life in general. You get out what you put in they say. Is there something wrong with pursuing a great paying job or career ?  Being a doctor or lawyer ? Or just wanting success ?

How about parents that push their kids in the direction of college or getting great grades in high school etc. What of course is behind this is for them to get a career that pays them a lot of money. I am not pushing the prosperity doctrine here at all. But isn't there always with in us all a desire to have nice things and own a home. To be able to afford to eat out at a nice restaurant.For the women - having nice jewelry or a nice size diamond ring on the finger. Are wanting these things natural desires and not necessarily fleshly ?
Let us be honest. I mean really especially the ladies.

I say this because I know Christian women that say to me how we shouldn't live for the flesh and then you look at their closet and they have 20 pairs of shoes. Or wear nice and pricey clothes. Or men who desire nice cars and a suit at Macy's instead of WalMwart. Looking forward to your comments.

One more thing. Honesty is important here. One brother once in dialogue said to me that the problem is materialism. Too much materialism and not enough on the things spiritual. Then you take a peek in his home and he has a nice home. A big screen tv. Nice car. Wants to work overtime to make extra money to buy things.

One Christian woman I know very well said the same thing. And then gets excited when there is a sale at such and such store. Or spends an hour or two going through catalogues looking at clothes and furniture.
Spending money on perfume and cosmetics. Getting her hair highlighted which costs a penny. Anyway fire away. 

[Kat]

Hi mrsnacks,

hummm, I have an idea about this, but it is just my opinion.
Just as you say, we send our lives chasing after the desires of the flesh.  I was like everybody else, wanted nice clothes and jewelry, you know how you want to dress to impress. 
This is the carnal desires of the flesh we all have to some degree.  It's part of living this life, and the experience of good and evil that we all will go through.

Tit 3:3  For we ourselves also were once foolish, disobedient, deceived, slaving for various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.

So as I said, I went through it like everybody does.  But I can honestly say now, I don't have the same desires I once had for those things.  Sure I still want to look nice, but I'm not interested in making the sales or shopping at all for that matter, like I use to.  Now I have to force myself to go to the grocery store.
So what am I saying, I think God usually gives people many years to live there lives and have a full experience of keep up with the Jones.  Then He shows us the vanity of it all, I went through sort of a depression, thinking I had not accomplished anything worthwhile.  Then after all this, when we are shown the truth, we have a good contrast to compare it with. 
That's why I don't think we have to many young people here, or at least they don't stay long.  And I'm not saying He doesn't open the eyes of younger people, I've seen young people here that are clearly seeing the truth.  I guess what I mean is out of the few, there are very few young people.
I hope this makes sense.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[carol70]

This is an interesting topic, as I'm struggling with it a bit.

I've never been big into shopping.  Oh sure, I like nice clothes and shoes but I've never been overly concerned about it.  I will admit, I used to fantasize about having a bigger diamond ring  but I no longer have that desire - I'm more than content with what I have.

These days, I'm kinda stuck in trying to decide what desires are ok and which ones aren't.  For instance, from now on should I only purchase the most inexpensive car I can find?  Is it wrong to want a bigger vehicle for my family and two dogs?  How about Disney World - is it wrong to want to take my son there someday?  I have traveled to the Caribbean on several occasions and I love visiting those beautiful beaches and clear blue waters - is this wrong?  It may sound silly but I really have been struggling with trying to decide if its sinful to want these worldly things...

[chuckt]

This is an interesting topic, as I'm struggling with it a bit.

I've never been big into shopping.  Oh sure, I like nice clothes and shoes but I've never been overly concerned about it.  I will admit, I used to fantasize about having a bigger diamond ring  but I no longer have that desire - I'm more than content with what I have.

These days, I'm kinda stuck in trying to decide what desires are ok and which ones aren't.  For instance, from now on should I only purchase the most inexpensive car I can find?  Is it wrong to want a bigger vehicle for my family and two dogs?  How about Disney World - is it wrong to want to take my son there someday?  I have traveled to the Caribbean on several occasions and I love visiting those beautiful beaches and clear blue waters - is this wrong?  It may sound silly but I really have been struggling with trying to decide if its sinful to want these worldly things...

no worries, your fine!!!



there is nothing wrong with wanting nice things for your family, bigger cars are safer. nothing wrong with going to the beach((just dont wear a two peice))) JK.


for real, as long as these things dont become idols of the heart. seek first the kingdom and these will be added. knowing also


those of you who are married with children and have families this is where your heart is, nothing wrong with that, tis LOVE.

inlove
chuckt

[Extol]

I think God gives some people incredible talent, and it is good for them to use that talent. I'm a huge sports fan, and let me tell you, it is a joy to watch Roger Federer play tennis. Mozart may not have been the most moral of men, but I believe he was still touched by God to give his music as a gift to the world. (Amadeus is one of my favourite movies, as well as Ray's  ). Even if a famous athlete or musician is not one of God's elect, or even one of the called, I still think that their talents are gifts from God to the world. I don't really have any Scriptures on this; just my opinion. If I'm wrong I will gladly accept correction. 

[gmik]

I struggle w/ all this too.  One thing about shopping is don't go in debt.  Never buy what you can't pay for. 

Once your'e not in the bondage of tithing, you have to be listening carefully to God's instructions, so that you don't ignore someone in need to pay for an extra pair of shoes.

How do we become cheerful givers, and not feel we own our own money?  Do we give to the poor so much so that we don't go to DisneyWorld (for example)?  Is that the difference between the called & the chosen??  Living 100% for God and nothing of the world and its pleasures???

We look at the rich pastors and think gee w/ a 20million dollar house, couldn't he have bought a million dollar one and give $19million to the poor???

Is that any different than living in a $200,000 house (fairly average these days) and someone saying why not live in a $100,000 house and give $100,000 to the poor?

How about just rent a small apartment and give most of your salary away? Period.

Where is the line drawn???

Do we read scripture all day??  Never watch TV??  Never read a newspaper or magazine??

I tend to spend a lot of time wasted on silly things and buy stupid stuff.  I do always stay in our budget.  Recently I have gone hog-wild on the twins and grand daughter.  Do I not do that and give the same stuff to a charity???

I have always wanted to talk about this stuff.
Is this all outward man stuff???  And the REALLY important things are what Paul and Peter taught.  Walking in the Spirit w/ the fruits of the spirit and adding virtue and love to "these things'?

Anyhow, hope more people post on this.  I find it very interesting. Thanks Mr. Snacks.

[carol70]

Gena, you completely nailed this for me and got to the heart of all my concerns.  I too look forward to hearing other responses!

[eggi]

mrsnacks said:

Now I ask where is the Lord in all this ? He tells us to seek ye first the Kingdom of God first. And then all these things will be added . What are all these things ? Some say our needs such as water, food and shelter. IS that it ?

No, that's not IT.

And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!

It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved? And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee. And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,

But he shall receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. (Mar 10:23-30 KJV)

The Geneva commentary says:

A hundred times as much, if we use the commodities of this life in a proper way, so that we use them in accordance with the will of God, and not just to gain the wealth itself, and to fulfil our greedy desire.

It plainly says:


It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

It's impossible for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, but nothing is impossible for God.

When we spend most of our time trying to get material things, we don't have time for spiritual things. That's just how it is. But when Jesus said that if we seek the kingdom of God we will receive a hundredfold, did he mean that we will have a hundred houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands? No, they are not material things, they are spiritual. We will receive a hundredfold spiritually:

But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. (
Mat 13:23 KJV)

It doesn't mean that we can't have a house, clothes, material things, but this cannot be our FOCUS:

No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? (Mat 6:24-25 KJV)

God bless you,
Eirik

[Shmeggly]

I think there is a fine line between excess and what is just fine.  For us on this forum, I think we know God is working this out in our hearts, and that materialism is a HUGE problem nowadays, as well as people (kids especially) being ungrateful.  We live in a consumer culture.

Now having said that, I want my family to have nice things.  I want them to be grateful, and not spoiled.  Being able to afford them and not go into debt is another thing.  It really is a matter of the heart. 

I just watched again a movie called "Uprising"....in it the people go through horrific conditions, yet they still smile, laugh etc.  Sometimes situations can put things in perspective.  What IS important? 

To me, it really is a matter of the heart.  Carol, when it comes to vehicles, you should not get the least expensive, you should get the most comfortable, reliable, gas saving possible....yet still be able to afford it! (You deserve nice things!)
It's like this....I don't need a Hummer or a Mercedes, but that doesn't mean I have to drive a 10 year old Hyundai Pony or something!    Middle of the road is good....Honda civic!  *I apologize to any Hyundai Pony owners, it was an example only!

Cars are very near and dear to me, as I require one to get to work, and without it, I have no job!

I used to WANT a fancier car to impress people; now I just want a decent reliable vehicle that won't fall apart.  My heart attitude has changed, so it changed what type of vehicle I wanted.  It's the same for a house; you don't want lack of space, but you don't need a 4000 square foot home for 2 people!

How much stuff is bought, and never used, and is never needed.  Our stores are full of STUFF!!!  Most of it will never be purchased.  It really gets to me how we are driven by this; people buy things to make themselves feel better, and so they don't think about how miserable they are....I saw this in the church bigtime....

I am saying this from a perspective of one who used to buy habitually....to make himself happy....I still love buying stuff, but it is with a different attitude.  If I need it or it's useful, then I will look around, compare and try to get the best bang for my buck.  Don't get top of the line, but don't get bottom of the barrel garbage either....middle of the road. 

But what do I know, I am sitting typing this on my $3000 laptop in my Aston Marton Vanquish ($300,000) at a stoplight, checking the time on my solid gold Rolex, sipping a $10 latte expresso low foam from Starbluks while thinking how my stock can gain a quarter point so I don't have to miss out on my second vacation to Mexico this year....I don't want to rough it!  (please realize I'm kidding.... :-)

I think most people know, deep inside, what really is ok, and what is maybe excess....anyway, I hope you also know I'm not judging, just some thoughts I've had....take care....J

[jER]

I believe [we] are blessed with things, so that we can bless others (...of course this includes family as well).

And, "My Heart's Desire is to Love God and Serve No Other."

Many Blessings - jER

[ciy]

This is a subject that I find to be very difficult to find the truth of the mystery.

"Trust in the Lord with all of thine heart lean not to thy own understanding."
and "God's ways are not our ways" both seem to point in the opposite direction of what we would think is common sense or reasonable thinking.  We are made subject to vainity and with a heart that is deceitful so that how are we to gauge what is reasonable to spend on a car, home, etc.

I know that we say to live a balanced life, but I cannot find any of the "heroes" of the bible that lived a balanced life.  From Abraham to Moses to David to Jeremiah, Isaiah, John, to Jesus and Paul all lived what we would term an unbalanced life.  I think we have to realize that many or all of us (me included) may be in that group of 80 or so of the disciples in John 6 that said "This is a hard and difficult and strange saying an offensive and unbearable message.  Who can stand to hear it?  Who can be expected to listen to such teaching?" (Amplified)  Remember there are many called then few chosen and then some of those are faithful to the end.  I am sure Judas reasoned in his own mind that it was only good common sense to give the money to the poor and establish a kingdom in this world and that this man I have been following is not being reasonable.

1 John says that we are to give up this world and that if we love any part the love of God is not in us.  I find it very hard to keep my eyes on Jesus during all the pulls and tugs that come in a day at work.  It is so easy to get right back into the desires of this world and put them first.  It is all done with a carnal mind and each day at work exercises and builds up that carnal mind which is enmity to God.  So I believe without the wilderness experience until you are washed clean of all of this world can you truly be faithful.  Remember Jesus says when He returns will He find "any faithful".

I hope you all realize that I too want to believe that if I am balanced I will be ok, but this is always in my mind and seems to be truer just like all of those years I said I believed in hell when in my mind it did not add up.  A "hard teaching" does not seem to fit with the comfortable worldly life that we live.

CIY

[mrsnacks]

Well wasn't Abraham wealthy ? How about Solomon ? Job to ? Where is the balance ?

Yesterday I had 3 people come up to me while I was going on a walk and ask me for money. They could've needed the money for booze or drugs maybe. Who knows. But I didn't give. I don't mine giving at a gas station to the guy who comes up and wants a donation for cleaning your windows on your car. At least he is working for it.

I am certain if I was in Tiger Woods' shoes financially - I wouldn't be living in a small condo in a modest or low income neighborhood and driving a Pinto. I wouldn't be shopping at Payless shoes. But I am not Tiger Woods and I know as a disciple of Christ that things don't really satisfy but for only a moment. Things don't rule my life. I like nice things but I don't lose any sleep if I don't have them. Is God the one that blesses us or is it up to us to get them ? But in  reality you never own anything. Don't make a mortgage payment and see what happens to ( your ) home. The same for your car. Even if your car is paid for you need to pay insurance and registration yearly. If you don't see what happens. You may own the car but you need to pay for the privilege to drive it.  And when you die you take nothing with you.

Yes we may be blessed with things so we can bless others. But the rich I know of seldom do. I know . I have worked for very wealthy men and women and they all have been stingy. I am talking about super wealthy. They spend on themselves and their own family.

And so called rich Christians are not that much different. I am sure there are exceptions on both sides. You ever hear of Hagin, Copeland, Dollar , Robertson, giving money to the flock ? They tell the church to send them money so the windows of heaven can be open yet they don't send out any checks. I did get a call from one of these evangelist organizations soliciting me for a donation. I  told them to send me money and so they will be blessed even more. She hung up on me.

[ciy]

I agree that Abraham, Solomon, and Job did not live balanced lives.  And I am like most when I judge who to give money to and who not to.  The story of the Good Samaritan shows that we should not judge for ourselves if someone is worthy.  When someone asks we should give.

Mt 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. 43 ¶ Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Matthew 5:39-44

It is all a very hard teaching.
CIY

[mrsnacks]

I agree that Abraham, Solomon, and Job did not live balanced lives.  And I am like most when I judge who to give money to and who not to.  The story of the Good Samaritan shows that we should not judge for ourselves if someone is worthy.  When someone asks we should give.

Mt 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. 43 ¶ Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Matthew 5:39-44

It is all a very hard teaching.
CIY

----------------------------

Well the story of the God Samaritan no one asked anyone for anything to my recollection. But in the verse you quoted it says not to turn away anyone who would borrow either. Does that mean if a stranger asks you for money or your car even - would you automatically lend it ? It says give to him that asketh. It sounds like it can mean something other than money. I think one is doing good by not giving certain people what they asks for. The Lord doesn't give His children what they ask for most of the time. Just some thoughts.

[ciy]

Again I think it is that "hard teaching" that we cannot accept because it is beyond our own understanding.  I tend to rationalize it out in my own mind and say that I will not give to this stranger who may go and buy the wrong thing with it, but there does not seem to be any room in the scriptures for me to question motive only to do what Jesus says.  That is to give.

Why do I call Him Lord, Lord, and not do what He says?  We I spend the majority of my time in the world doing the things of this world I end up not doing what he says. 

Again I go back to what I began with that it is one of God's sacred secrets that I have not yet been given the clear eyes to see and I am posting to encourage and to be encouraged in the truth of the matter.

CIY

[zvezda]

Ray has answered some similar questions:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4099.0.html
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2422.0.html

[gmik]

Thanks Z!!!  That sure gets to the point!!

[iris]

zvezda,

Thanks for bringing these emails back up.
It was good reading them again.


Iris

[zvezda]

you are welcome, Gena and Iris