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A question derived from one of ray's papers.
Deborah-Leigh:
Ah. I don't consider that to be witchcraft or sorcery, since it was done by the Lord
Yes you and the whole of Christiandom will agree with you Carol70 ;D :D
To quote Ray's teaching:
ONE OF THESE CREATED WICKED FORCES WAS A SERPENT
“Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made” (Gen. 3:1).
This God-created serpent deceived Eve (I Tim. 2:14). God “made” “the serpent” who “deceived” Mother Eve. Notice that God did not create something called “Lucifer,” that was “…more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made.” If this “serpent” is indeed, “the Devil,” then the Scripture plainly tells us that this was a beast “…which the Lord God had made.”
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html
God is the cause of every evil and every good in the real universe seen and not seen!
If you want to know if the principalities, and powers of the rulers of the darkness of this world and if spiritual wickedness is real, the answer is yes....it is real.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against the flesh and blood, contending only with physical opponents, but against the despotisms, against the powers, against the MASTER SPIRITS WHO ARE THE WORLD RULERS OF THIS PRESENT DARKNESS, against THE SPIRIT FORCES OF WICKEDNESS in the heavenly supernatural sphere.
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)
carol70:
Ok. Then the proof of the existence of witchcraft, sorcery, and the like lies in Ephesians 6:12: For we wrestle not against the flesh and blood, contending only with physical opponents, but against the despotisms, against the powers, against the MASTER SPIRITS WHO ARE THE WORLD RULERS OF THIS PRESENT DARKNESS, against THE SPIRIT FORCES OF WICKEDNESS in the heavenly supernatural sphere.
That's all the proof I need.
HOWEVER, I stand by my earlier statement that when the Lord turned Moses' rod into a snake, it was not an act of witchcraft or sorcery, unless the definition of witchcraft means to turn sticks into serpents. Maybe it does... Hey, I'm still learning here. :)
carol70:
Sorry, I just can't let this go.
If the act of turning Moses' rod into a serpent, as performed by Jesus, who is the God of the Old Testament, is considered sorcery, then that would mean he committed a sin, which we KNOW can't be true! Therefore, while there may be those out there who can perform sorcery, Jesus NEVER did!!!
Kat:
Hi Carol,
I can understand your question about the reality of sorcery, magic, witchcraft or whatever you want to call it.
The way I see this, is powers that are used, not in the service of God. When someone does anything by the power of God, it is for the good and is not evil. When people try to use the forces they do not understand to have power, it is for the lust of the flesh and evil. Certainly these powers are ultimately come from God, as He is sovereign, but He does not use them for evil as man does and it is just another means for this experience of evil.
In the account in Exodus, where Moses rod turned into a snake, the magicians preformed the same as Moses did on this and other occasions.
Exo 7:11 Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers. And they, the magicians of Egypt, did the same with their secret arts.
v. 12 For each man threw down his rod, and they became snakes. But Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.
Exo 8:7 And the magicians did so with their secret arts, and brought up frogs upon the land of Egypt.
Something to consider did Satan have power to afflict Job? Certainly it was given to him from God, but Satan actually did evil to Job physically. I think he is still doing these things to people.
Job 2:6 And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, he is in your hand, but spare his life."
So couldn't this same power used to afflict Job, be worked on other people and sorcery be the means that Satan carries it out? It is not God actually doing this evil to people, it would be people using these Satanic powers. So if people so foolishly seek to use powers other than from God, I would think Satan is ready to oblige them.
But I think a lot of it is not from supernatural mean, but just evil done by people.
Here is some information I found to explain what this sorcery is.
Magic - Witchcraft
The existence of the black art and its attendant practices can be traced from the time of the ancient Egyptians and Persians, from the Greeks and Hebrews, to the period when reports of black magic were most numerous, during the Middle Ages, thus forming an unbroken chain. In medieval magic may be found a degraded form of popular pagan rites—the ancient gods had become devils, their mysteries orgies, their worship sorcery.
The fraternity had grades from the pretenders, charlatans, and diviners of the common people to the various secret societies and orders of initiates, among whom were kings, queens, popes, and dignitaries of church and state. In these advanced levels, knowledge and ritual were carefully cherished and preserved in manuscripts, some of which still exist. (I think we heard about some of this in Ray's latest paper)
Witchcraft has seen a resurgence in the twentieth century with neo-pagan, Wiccan, and Dianic traditions spreading throughout the United States, Europe, South America, and Australia. Black magic is also still practiced in many traditional cultural groups around the world including the United States, where it may be seen among voodoo practitioners, brujos, and others who practice the black arts.
I'm not sure most of these use any supernatural powers at all, but they carry out some hideous crimes to pratice their black art. Here is some of what I found.
For the actual rites the light came from candles made from the fat of corpses and fashioned in the form of a cross; the bowls were made from skulls, those of parricides being of greatest virtue;
Another potent instrument of magic was the mandragora, unearthed from beneath gallows where corpses were suspended, tied to a dog. The dog was then killed by a mortal blow, after which its soul was to pass into the fantastic root, attracting also that of the hanged man.
To make themselves invisible, it is said that sorcerers used an unguent compounded from the incinerated bodies of newborn infants mixed with the blood of nightbirds. (Occultism & Parapsychology Encyclopedia)
It's all a terrible evil that will be burned out of any that practice it.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
carol70:
Kat, that was excellent - thank you!!!
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