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Author Topic: Common objections  (Read 10123 times)

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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Common objections
« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2007, 05:39:19 PM »

With endurance and patience here is an excerpt from Ray:

Notice also Peter's stern warning regarding what was happening in the past in his time, and what was prophesied to continue until our time and beyond:

"But there were false prophets [a ‘prophet’ can mean one who speaks in behalf of God’] also among the people, even as there shall be [future] false teachers among you [and among US], who privily shall bring in [Gk: smuggle in] DAMNABLE HERESIES, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And MANY shall follow their pernicious [destructive] ways; by reason of whom the way of the truth shall be evil spoken of [Gk: ‘blasphemed’]" (II Pet. 2:1-2). http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm


So for me, Patience, that fruit of the Spirit that is used to peddle and make merchandise of Gods Word and meanings and is idolised and vehemently guarded as meaning ....tolerance for evil. Kindness to the wolves is cruelty to the sheep.

Paul said : Heb 5:11 Concerning this we have much to say which is hard to explain, since you have become dull in your spiritual hearing and sluggish even slothful in achieving spiritual insight. 12 For even though by this time you ought to be teaching others, you actually need someone to teach you over again the very first principles of God's Word. You have come to NEED MILK, not solid food. 13 For everyone who continues to feel on milk is obviously inexperienced and unskilled in the doctrine of righteousness, of conformity to the divine will in purpose, thought and action, for he is a mere infant not able to talk yet!

My point is this. There are false teachers among us....US. As Paul notes, those on milk can not even talk yet. Those who can speak...should they keep quiet?  I do not think so. In fact Scripture warns against keeping back the truth. I have been blessed by the truth via Newbies in this very Forum!

1 Peter 2:7 To you then who believe, who adhere to , trust in, and rely on Him, is the preciousness; but for those who disbelieve, it is true, The very Stone which the builders rejected has become the main Cornerstone, and A Stone that will cause stumbling and a Rock that will give offense; they stumble because they disobey and DISBELIEVE GOD'S WORD, as those who reject him WERE DESTINED, APPOINTED TO DO.

Joe....you quoted OT. I noticed that. I do not think the patience in the NT means tolerance of evil I think it means patience under persecution, opposition and rejection. In other words, patience that bleeds out of the endurance from pain in following Christ rather than taking the pup wolf by the paw and leading it into the sheep fold and ignoring or berating the sheep for bleating while silencing the lambs as some would do!

Diana

I will not keep quiet unless and until the Lord directs. He will have His way it it might be sooner than later...read on... :D

Rodger

Thank you for you post. To add

http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm I quote from Ray: "Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do THESE [these vessels of dishonor in God’s House] also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the truth. But they shall proceed [Gk: ‘increase, advance, grow’] no further [Just as Jannes and Jambres could resist God only so far and no further, so too, will these corrupt-minded reprobates in God’s House cease to deceive God’s church, when God makes all secrets known to all]: for their folly shall be manifest unto all, as theirs [Jannes & Jambres] was." (II Tim. 3:8-9)...................
Then in another part in the same paper...

"Yes, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But EVIL MEN AND SEDUCERS [Gk: ‘imposters’] SHALL WAX [grow] WORSE AND WORSE, deceiving, and being deceived" (II Tim. 3:13).

That part is prophesied...it is not going to go away and I get much comfort from this fact that this is the plan and word of God. Endurance is the flip side of patience and it suffers and bleeds sometimes where as the dressed up counterfeit of patience is piety with a flip side of tolerance for idolatry as the currency of Babylonian heresies.

And just who is it that grows "worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived?" The men and women of the world? The pagans and heathens? Is this what Paul means? Of course not. These are the leaders of the Church.

"Preach the word; [the WHOLE Word of God]; be instant in season, out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine [Who? The world? The pagans? The atheist? Why they have never had sound doctrine in the first place] but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables" (II Tim. 4:2-4).


Peace to you

Arcturus :)
« Last Edit: July 25, 2007, 05:45:54 PM by Arcturus »
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Common objections
« Reply #41 on: July 25, 2007, 07:03:22 PM »


Joe....you quoted OT. I noticed that. I do not think the patience in the NT means tolerance of evil I think it means patience under persecution, opposition and rejection. In other words, patience that bleeds out of the endurance from pain in following Christ rather than taking the pup wolf by the paw and leading it into the sheep fold and ignoring or berating the sheep for bleating while silencing the lambs as some would do!


Hi Arcturus,

I thought the verses I presented from the OT (which I believe to be just as relevant as the NT) captured the point I was trying to make. Should we be rigid in all our interactions with our brethren? Can we discern a misguided idea from a person who is honestly searching? 

What do you believe is the "fruit" Christ speaks of here?


Luk 8:15  But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

There is no doubt that heresy and blasphemy must be addressed with a two edged sword when it is continuing from the same source.

How do we deal with our children when they make a mistake due to ignorance or immaturity?

If one were to come to this Forum and spew evil doctrines I can assure you they would not be here for long, but patience with some who don't quite "get it" yet is a godly thing to do. The apostles were with Christ Himself for 3 and a half years and still did not "get it."


Rom 12:18  If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
 
Gal 6:10  As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

Php 4:5  Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.

Last but not least we have this from Paul on how we should deal with our brothers and sisters;

1Th 5:14  Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe


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seminole

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Re: Common objections
« Reply #42 on: July 25, 2007, 08:51:02 PM »

Sorry to butt in a conversation of those who know more. Just wanted to ask if I am reading that those of us who are still learning and finding our way should not say anything further? If so, how do we get the wisdom to know when we have reached the level necessary to post something?
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Brett

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Re: Common objections
« Reply #43 on: July 26, 2007, 12:48:00 AM »

Brett

The Spirit is incorruptible, the body((flesh)) sins.

The Spirit, sort of enters a state liken to sleep, the body decays.

Do a little dirty work, research the ancient old text word that is translated into SOUL ,in that scripture.

And post your findings on here.............i'll be be waiting for your post on what you come up with.

wisdom and tranquil
Rodger

Hi Rodger,

Thanks for the answer. I will do my best understand in Matt 10:28. Still want more discussing, not that challenge or whatever but trying to understand if God will, you know. Maybe we need move to new topic of "Matt. 10:28"? Because maybe the moderates would locked this post for some reason. What you think? Anyway here I have email from Ray in two years ago when I first time found his site:

Hi Ray,
 
I have read and study it in your site. I learned something that person dead and is in hade (unseen, sleep). The question I have for you:
 
Soul in hade (with unseen)?
 
And the spirit gone with God but not in heaven?
(this one stupid question I had  ::))
 
If spirit with God or heaven, will have seen like conscious? If yes, how can person/soul in hade unseen and his spirit seen at the same time?
 
Of course, I understand your writing about hade, sleep, unseen, wait until Jesus come again (resurrection). The reason why I ask you is because 1 Cor. 15:51 said not all fall asleep, yet, other scripture said 'sleep' and 'unseen'. This is confusing to me, it is not about you, it is about the scripture, real sleep or not sleep at all. Hope you can help me. I extremely appreciate your time and help.
 
Thanks,
Brett

 

Dear Brett:
At death, we are DEAD. Completely DEAD. We know NOTHING. It is NOT sleep, but it is LIKE sleep, in that you are NOT CONSCIOUS, and you do not dream--you are DEAD.
Your "spirit" is what gives life to YOUR BODY. The spirit doesn't think or talk or dor anything CONSCIOUS, except give LIFE to your body.  That spirit goes back to God IN HEAVEN (where ever God IS, IS heaven), but it has NO CONSCIOUSNESS. It cannot "think" without a body.
The body at death, begins to decay and return back to the soil of the ground.
The "soul" is your consciousness (your thinking, feeling, etc.). At death it just completely ceases to exist AT ALL.  That ceasing to exist at all is called "the UNSEEN"  or hades in the Greek and sheol in the Hebrew. It is not a PLACE, it is not a GEOGRAPHICAL LOCATION, it is not UP or DOWN, it is just NOTHING (the UNSEEN, UNKNOWN, IMPERCEPTIBLE.
God be with you,
Ray



I have something new in my mind about Matt. 10:28 and want to comment and see if I am right or not. But let me think first before comment. I don't want another stupid question (or comment) like I did to Ray. ;D


Quote
Addendum:: BRETT

What attributes do the scriptures describe of the Spirit, such as love, enlightenment, mercy, healing, caring, Faith, worchiping...ect.

What do you brett attribute to the spirit of God in accordance to the scriptures.

Can any of those attributes be seen physically, be felt physically........ect

Sorry, I'm not sure I understand. Is that question? Or just comment?

Quote
I would hope once you Brett can get a more solid grasp of WHAT the Spirit consist of, you can be led by the Spirit and be enlighten to How the Spirit works/actions.

Thank you, Rodger.

Quote
cauliflower and tylenol
Rodger

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Brett


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jER

  • Guest
Re: Common objections
« Reply #44 on: July 26, 2007, 02:57:40 AM »

Should we be rigid in all our interactions with our brethren? Can we discern a misguided idea from a person who is honestly searching? 

Ephesians 3:17-19

"That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God."

I Corinthians 13:1-13

"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity (LOVE), I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity (LOVE), I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity (LOVE), it profiteth me nothing. Charity (LOVE) suffereth long, and is kind; charity (LOVE) envieth not; charity(LOVE) vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Charity (LOVE) never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now, I know in part; but then shall I know, even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity (LOVE), these three; but the greatest of these is charity (LOVE)."   

Matthew 22:36-40

"Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment and the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself,  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

I John 3:1

"Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God."


 It appears that the perpetual corrector understands the importance of truth, but often misses the requirements of love, and kindness.

- jER
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Craig

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Re: Common objections
« Reply #45 on: July 26, 2007, 08:08:05 AM »

Quote
Should we be rigid in all our interactions with our brethren? Can we discern a misguided idea from a person who is honestly searching? 


No, that is a job that should be left for a moderator.  Not that we need any more jobs, but that is something a moderator should weed out.  I know some may not agree with all our decisions but hopefully they'll agree with 50% at least ;) 

Craig
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LittleBear

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Re: Common objections
« Reply #46 on: July 26, 2007, 12:04:30 PM »

Hi Joe,

Beautiful post!

Ursula
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iris

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Re: Common objections
« Reply #47 on: July 26, 2007, 12:13:33 PM »

Hi Joe,

Beautiful post!

Ursula

I think so to!!!


Iris
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Common objections
« Reply #48 on: July 26, 2007, 03:30:21 PM »

Hello Joe

To become Christ like is our reward.

We have to be either hot or cold!  ;D 8)

Joe, you ask : Should we be rigid in all our interactions with our brethren?

Matt 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness is more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

So how RIGID must we be? Is this getting a bit icy already?… As in uncompromising, unyielding as flint and having no fellowship with darkness…. or not?….I know Joe is not a coward that will run… so let me warm up a little.…

In the Forum we can answer only what is written. We know little else about one another to go on. We have no insight into what pains, burdens or sufferings a member is enduring in the background of what they contribute. That is a good thing because such information can sway, manipulate, confuse, add to the slur of deceptions that teach and lead into condescension towards man carnal sentimentality's. Paul wrote that he was : ."resolved to know nothing, to be acquainted with nothing, to make a display of the knowledge of nothing, and to be conscious of nothing among you except Jesus Christ the Messiah and Him crucified." 1 Cor 2:2

How does this scripture talk to you? What do you understand by it?

Rays teachings state : First, let me state my position succinctly:

1  Whatever we teach must "glorify" God

  "Glory to God in the highest..." (Lk 2:14)

  "...that in all God may be glorified..." (1Pt 4:11)

2.  Whatever we teach must not detract on iota from Christ’s sacrifice for all humanity.

....there is one....mediator between God and men....Christ Jesus......"
unquote

Should WE not have the same standards ? I think yes we should.

There was a beautiful discussion on this very point where Joe and I were caused to exchange some  precious insights with others who also powerfully  contributed gems of wisdom to this question. So there is no need to go over these questions here and now but for those who may want to visit or revisit this exchange it is available on the tread at :  http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2392.0.html

I believe that, as Ray is accountable, WE too are accountable and have to answer to what is written on the Forum. Our membership is not without accountability to God.  Either that or we can stand back and observe what is the abundance of the heart as expressed in what is written and do and say nothing. Some cannot say or do anything but observe, learn and pray and to them there is no condemnation. Participation may be either active or passive seen or unseen. There are those however, who are called to lower the standard of right standing with God, and are appointed to do so.

Should we not all agree that Ray is not one who is lowering  right standing before God? On the contrary. Ray elevates understanding and faith and knowledge of Christ. We should, but we don’t all agree with Gods teachings through Ray.  Paul and Christ certainly were not among those appointed to lower, deceive and mislead. Christ, Paul, The Word of God and Ray our teacher in this generation are role models to right standing and knowledge of God and His Son Jesus Christ no matter how rightly or wrongly, agreeable or disagreeably we view this fact.

We are NOT, in this world or in this Forum, as we should be, all building up Christ’s body to know His Character Ways and Thoughts. We are not all developing until we attain unity in knowledge of the Son of God that is vividly expressed and revealed in Rays teachings. If I lie, then the notification that not all the things that are written in the Forum are endorsed by Ray and agreed by Ray to be the truth, can be removed. Can this disclaimer be removed? NO. The sooner we grasp the nettle of the fact that there are false teachings carried by some of us, among US in the Forum, the sooner this can be repaired. Christ has not yet returned and the work is still on to labour in the field. The Forum is not outside the field. It is a very privileged part of it.

Joe you ask : Can we discern a misguided idea from a person who is honestly searching?

Sure. Some of us can and then what? Do we turn left or right? Do we focus on the misguided (FOOLISH, OR UNREASONABLE ESPECIALLY IN ACTION OR BEHAVIOUR…) idea? Do we respond as Rodger says quote  : "[1] preach with sound doctrine and [2] refute those who contradict it"
[Titus 1:9 - The New Revised Standard Version]


And to add 2 Cor 10 : 5 Inasmuch as we refute arguments…ARGUMENTS. and theories and reasoning’s and every proud and lofty thing that sets itself up AGAINST THE TRUE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD; we lead every thought and purpose away captive into obedience of Christ.

Do we, do you, do I, does anyone, do as Christ says to do OR do we turn left into guiding or directing wrongly away from exposing lies, in avoidance of challenging rebellion against the truth, with self investing pride that inflates and puffs up making for MORE ignorance of the truth, doting over questions of the law, debating’s, splitting hairs and pitting factions against others, envying, sour tempers, strife’s over doctrines, perverse and vain arguments, rejecting the truth because of corrupt minds, being destitute of truth but rich in fallacies and doctrines of emotions, seeking personal gain, railings, evil speaking, evil surmising and suspicions? (All the above are traits of FALSE TEACHERS ref 1 Tim 6 : 3-5)

Joe you ask should we be RIDGED? YES Joe…WE SHOULD! Not as rigormortis in a chorus of dead letters of the word in self assured piety gathered together in mutual agreement that together make a dead body, but ridged as in individually responsive to the call to overcome deception and GETTING INTO THE FACE OF carriers of Babylonian gaff increasing pig food of Babylonian feel good ideas, fables and false teaching! HEY we do not have to go out and look for it….I am not suggesting that for a moment! 

The blade of the wheat gatherer is curved and it cuts as it gathers to God not man gathering to himself. The harvest has been great…indeed 2000 years great in years not numbers saved or chosen. In each generation few not many are gleaned/called out from the many Babylonian false teachings deceptions, heresies and blasphemies. Few get dragged out. Many stay in. God made this so.
Should we get upset with God for this? NO.

Should we rail against Gods ways and get into debates and arguments with them who are in Babylon? No. Should we upset ourselves that many are deceived? No. For such a time as Gods Mercy to them, they are made to be subject to reprobate minds, errors and blindness. Should we despise the lies and heresy though? YES! Should we expose such? YES. Should we do so then give up in defeat  that still the blind are blind and the deaf and the false teachers remain so and get more followers right before our very own eyes even among them who say and appear at first glance to be our own brothers and sisters? NO!

You ask me Joe : What do you believe is the "fruit" Christ speaks of here?

Luk 8:15  But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Precisely! The patience to endure the circumcision on the heart that breaks under the trial and strain of the call to overcome the fact that God has made it so that the wicked increase against the truth, as evil seducers wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. 2 Tim 3:13

It is exactly ENDURANCE and enduring and overcoming the call to speak SMOOTHY the SMOOTH things that prophesy DECEITS Isa 30:10  and in NOT yielding to temptation or resisting evil with evil but by endurance of heart break still turning the other cheek and keeping ones face as flint knowing and sharing with Christ the evil surmising, covert hostility,  criticisms  for being cruel, mean or unsympathetic and all the slander false accusations and persecution and hate that calls us to OVERCOME not yield to temptation but leave to God our judgment who is the fair Judge of all men. In so doing to walk in the word of God being judged of no man though we be slandered, hated, rejected, railed against and persecuted  for 1 Cor 2:15 the spiritual man tries all things, he examines, investigates, inquires into, questions, and discerns all things, yet himself to be put on trial and judged by NO ONE…

Why NO ONE…? So what is persecution, being hated etc? Is that judgment of man? NO it is because the spiritual man has his trust in God His trial is not of man but of God bringing judgment to HIS House via the tests and trials of mans slander, through the onslaught against God loving hearts that can see evil prosper for the brevity that it triumphs. (which for man could be for the entire duration of his life time if chosen. )

And Bulls eye…the call of Christ to ENDURE the HATE for this life that is engulfed by perilous times, surrounded by lovers of their own selves, blasphemers, trucebreakers, false accusers, fierce despisers of those who are good, traitors, high minded haughty lovers of their own ideas and imaginings rather than lovers of Christ, deniers of the power and teaching and CHARACTER of Christ who are ever learning and NEVER ABLE TO COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, compromisers, lukewarm middle of the road stuck on the fence cowards…..enduring this Joe is the fruit of patience as I see it whose virtue is under sever trial and testing from holier than thou peace keeping idolatry of harlot Babylon via her representatives and cronies.

You observe and then ask: There is no doubt that heresy and blasphemy must be addressed with a two edged sword when it is continuing from the same source.

How do we deal with our children when they make a mistake due to ignorance or immaturity?


How do WE deal with our children? Lets look at how GOD deals with HIS CHILDREN and lets not make GOD into OUR OWN IMAGE….Lets NOT DO THAT or teach that or endorse such sentiments Joe. At our PERIL we do that!

Rev 3: 19 THOSE WHO I DEARLY AND TENDERLY LOVE, I TELL THEIR FAULTS AND CONVICT AND CONVINCE AND REPROVE AND CHASTEN, I DISCIPLINE AND INSTRUCT THEM. SO BE ENTHUSIASTIC AND IN EARNEST AND BURNING WITH ZEAL AND REPENT, CHANGING YOUR MIND AND ATTITUDE.

Only ********, snakes, fools and hypocrites, whitened sepulchres, harlots, children of the devil and those who do not do the things Christ are the wolves who will want to be saved from Gods tender love! They will rail at and whimper in carnal accusations of feelings hurt who deny the pruning sheers of God that cuts the branch that will not grow and the branch that bears fruit. The despise the winnowing fork of God. Only the ones wanting to be SAVED FROM CIRCUMSISION will seek fellowship comfort zones in harlot teachings. Woe to them who gather to themselves the plagues of Babylon.

You ask : How do we deal with our children when they make a mistake due to ignorance or immaturity?

OUR CHILDREN? WHO’S CHILDREN? ….IGNORANCE? What is ignorance? It is a lack in knowledge, awareness or being unenlightened. So how should we respond:

2Cor2:17 For we are not like SO MANY like hucksters making a trade of peddling God’s Word, shortchanging and adulterating the divine message; but like men of sincerity and the purest motive, as commissioned and sent by God, we speak HIS MESSAGE in Christ, in the very sight and presence of GOD.

1 Cor 2:13 And we are setting these truths forth in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, combining and interpreting spiritual truths with spiritual language to those who possess the Holy Spirit. ( So…Who’s Children?) 14 But the natural, nonspiritual man DOES NOT ACCEPT OR WELCOME OR ADMIT INTO HIS HEART THE GIFTS AND TEACHINGS AND REVELATIONS OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD….( Which children? Devil kids aren’t going like to think I am their Mother that’s for good and sure I think! And their parents friends and family are not going to like me much either!)

There is some ignorance that has MATURED to great levels of maturation in that they pose confusion and beg sentimentality and compliance to their fears of rebuke for loathsome crooked beliefs that do nothing to show Christ and His Character or HIS ways. You need not look very far and there are some appalling examples of such that come across the nostrils as a stench from perdition…that is if your nostrils are open like mine that is!  Oh for endurance!

Heb 12 : 6,7 For the Lord corrects and disciplines everyone whom He loves, and He punishes, even scourges, every son whom He accepts and welcomes to His heart and cherishes. 7. You must submit to and endure correction for discipline; God is dealing with you as with sons, For what son is their whom his father does not train and correct and discipline?

Perhaps open nostrils are God’s way of training! Closed eyes noses and ears are for those who hear not see not and smell not! Ignorance is bliss to the ignorant. Woe, persecution, rejection oppression and persecution to those who would threaten their bliss.

Okay so that part deals with IGNORANCE…now to answer your question on how to deal with immaturity, or children who are not fully grown or developed, who are lacking in wisdom, insight, emotional stability? Well go for it Joe. THERE your selection of scriptures come forward into perspective to rightfully and scripturally to nurture the teachable Children of God. Pearls are not for the rebellious, idol clinging closed nosed blind and closed eared children of Babylon. Rebuke is perchance they should repent and find favour with the Lord.

Immature children are in both camps. The camp of God and Babylon! By their TEACHINGS and BELIEFS and PREFERENCES you shall know them! Will they or do they gnash their teeth when their idols are smashed? Or do they kneel in cleansing goodness of God’s Spirit of goodness that brings them to tearful remorse and heart cut repentance? What and who is this God we call God? Baal or Christ? Who are the children of the first resurrection and the second?

To children of God wisdom is food not poison. The scriptures expound this difference too between the way a wise person will receive instruction and the way a fool rejects it and hates you for it too. So…. Children…you say… Which children? Children per se! NO. Weak emotional debutants of social harlotry, idolater and prom bearers of deceptive emotional carnal prideful self willed blindness. NO. Not mine! Don’t know them! Their Dad is someone I do not entertain under my roof. That Father of lies is persona non-gratis with all his wives, fellowship circles and concubines too!

So what is the fruit of patience.?....  For me, in my personal experience it is Endurance under suffering without quitting no matter how evil things get or how much the evil enlarges, no matter how the stench of deception rises….endurance to the end….seeing the beam or mote…not the dust….NO DUST JOE! And being beaten by slander, false accusations, persecution hate and rejections….in other words…this being the way into the Kingdom of God via such trials.

You make your point well Joe ...that the Apostles were with Christ for three and a half years and still did not get it BUT Heb 12 : 5…have you completely forgotten the divine word and appeal and encouragement in which you are reasoned with and addressed as son?

Can Paul say this to you or I Joe? : O you poor and silly Joe and Arcturus. You thoughtless and unreflecting and senseless….WHO? (Which CHILDREN HAVE….) fascinated or bewitched or cast a spell over you, unto whom –right before your very eyes – Jesus Christ was openly and graphically set forth and portrayed and crucified? Let me ask you this one question : Did you receive the Holy Spirit…Then does HE Who supplies you with His marvellous Spirit and works powerfully and miraculously among you do so on the grounds of your doing what the Law demands, or because of your believing in and adhering to and trusting in and relying on the MESSAGE that you heard. Ref Gal 3

THAT MESSAGE IS LOUD AND CLEAR IN THE TEACHINGS VIA RAY SMITH!….You Fools You Hypocrites! You Snakes! I hope aren’t MY kids!..I do not want to baby sit devils or provide a nursery for snakes.

Finally you quote this Joe : Last but not least we have this from Paul on how we should deal with our brothers and sisters;

1Th 5:14  Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.


Is Paul talking about how we should deal with OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS?

I don’t think so. He speaks of ALL men ….being patient!…Being patient as we experience  times when many follow their own ways and evil ascends to the heavens as in the days of Noah.

Matt 13:12 For whoever has spiritual knowledge, to him will more be given and he will be furnished richly so that he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.

Will the children of God understand and the children of Satan rebel? Yes.

Hey Joe…I enjoy chatting with you! Perhaps next time just ask me one question!…at a time! My questions are all rhetorical! To be answered in the inner private closets of those who care to search, seek or respond with their own answers, thoughts and desires to know God.

Seminole

…..you ask how do you get wisdom to know when we have reached the level necessary to post something?….

LEVEL…What LEVEL? No such thing! Wisdom  by definition is the comprehensive insight into the ways and purposes of God NOT a LEVEL where you can post or not. The beginning of Wisdom is : GET WISDOM (Not for knowing when to post in the Forum! But AS) SKILLFUL AND GODLY WISDOM. (That is as God wise to God and knowledge of Him and His Son) For skillful and godly Wisdom is the principal thing. (So you are on the right track with the wrong reason perhaps!) And with all you have gotten, get UNDERSTANDING, DISCERNEMT, COMPREHENSION AND INTERPRETATION.. ….

There is PLENTY opportunity to exercise to get understanding, discernment, comprehension and interpretation through reading Rays teachings. This Forum is also such a place as God sees fit to provide to exercise such understanding, discernment comprehension and interpretation.

Rodger you say : I am but a measly hierling , …

I neither think or hope so!….

Peace to you

Arcturus :)



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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Common objections
« Reply #49 on: July 26, 2007, 06:14:41 PM »

Hello Arcturus,

I think the best way to answer some of your concerns is to step aside and let the Word sort it out for us, you know full well that the moderators do not suffer blatant heresy kindly or for very long. We often will allow some questionable posts for a short time and either respond to them in the thread or privately to the poster. Once warnings are ignored or blown off then we can be sure a stronger action is necessary.

Here is a bit from Paul in regard to interaction with others, I don't think anyone can call him wishy washy or namby pamby when it comes to being vigilant in the Gospel of the Good News of Christ and not only speaking of it but in living it as well!


1Cor 9:19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

1Cor 9:20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

1Cor 9:21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

1Cor 9:22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

1Cor 9:23And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

What is greater than knowledge,wisdom or prophecy (teaching included)?

1Co 13:2  And though I have the gift of prophecy and understand all mysteries and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains and have not charity,26 I am nothing.

G26
ἀγάπη
agapē
ag-ah'-pay
From G25; love, that is, affection or benevolence; specifically (plural) a love feast: - (feast of) charity ([-ably]), dear, love.

I believe in this instance in this usage 'agape' means dealing benevolently with those we interact with, we should be generous to our brethren, Christ certainly is, His sacrifice is for all men, if one proves themselves to be a wolf we must part ways if one is in need of a gentle teacher we also must provide for them.

1Co 13:3  And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

1Co 13:4  Charity suffereth long and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

1Co 13:8  Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

1Co 13:13  And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Peters addresses this as well;

1Pe 4:8  And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

There is no disclaimer about being charitable (benevolent) only to those who agree with us 100% of the time, rather we should be peaceful (as much as possible) toward "all men."

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe


 
 
 
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seminole

  • Guest
Re: Common objections
« Reply #50 on: July 26, 2007, 06:50:44 PM »

Joe I appreciate all you just wrote. I didn't mean to cause Arcturus , Rodger or anyone any ill feeling. Arcturus, I don't know as much as you. I don't even pretend to know half as much. I do have a hard time retaining information because of physical trauma that my body went through a long time ago. I kind of feel like I am  back at school  in trouble and  talked down to because I couldn't retain info. good.All I am knowing of the path I am on right now is the path of learning more of the Bible and how God wants me to live my life. I am sure that I am much more immature spiritually tan many are but my only wish is to grow towards maturity. Thanks folks and I would ask forgiveness of Arcturus and Rodger for any hardship I have been.
Seminole
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Jackie Lee

  • Guest
Re: Common objections
« Reply #51 on: July 26, 2007, 08:03:35 PM »

Great post Joe wrote full of Wisdom Compassion and Love....Yet not compromising the truth one iota.
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Common objections
« Reply #52 on: July 28, 2007, 09:02:41 AM »

Quoting and in AGREEMENT with Ray:

Must we all be theologians with a 150 IQ to understand these things? That leaves me out....

All Scripture is inspired, and all Scripture is true, but no one Scripture fully explains and interprets itself....Why is no Scripture its OWN interpretation, we might ask? To protect the integrity of the Scriptures, for one thing. ALL twelve of these spiritual principles are to be used together in explaining the Scriptures. If every Scripture or even any Scripture can be its "own interpretation," then we wouldn’t need the other eleven principles.http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm

TWELVE GOD-GIVEN TRUTHS TO UNDERSTAND HIS WORD

"None of the wicked shall understand; but the Wise shall understand" (Daniel 12:10)

To the carnal mind,.... Scriptures are contradictions...............

Every single person I know that has stopped growing, spiritually, begins to go backwards, loosing what light they may have possessed because they are no longer faithful to the Word and commandments of Almighty God.

They all possess one or more "idols of the heart," that they will not give up or repent of. Sadly, in most cases, (even when backed into an indefensible corner with the Scriptures), it is extremely rare that such ones will acknowledge their sin and repent of their error. Over time such individuals usually become bitter, after which it is only a matter of time before Satan has them for lunch!

These twelve spiritual truths are not just helpful in understanding God’s word; they are essential. Without them, you cannot understand anything spiritual in the Scriptures. To the degree that you deny or leave off one or more of them is the degree that your spiritual understanding diminishes. Apply them all, always, and you will see spiritual revelation like you never even thought possible.


Seminole

You ask forgiveness for any hardship you have been to me.

Sure I forgive you...seventy seven times seven times.  :D

Peace to you

Arcturus :)




 
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seminole

  • Guest
Re: Common objections
« Reply #53 on: July 28, 2007, 09:57:43 PM »

Thank You
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Harryfeat

  • Guest
Re: Common objections
« Reply #54 on: July 29, 2007, 03:52:35 PM »

Thanks guys. Keep the comments coming because I want to be totally convinced of this. I've seen alot of the scriptures that say we're dead...but I now I just want all the objections settled. But not only will it be clear for me, I'll be able to have a answer to the fundies.

Hey Oblivion,

 After you got "smacked around" a bit :D, I lost track of where this thread really went. I am not sure whether this thread got you to where you wanted to be.  I can say that a lot of study on your part can only help.  It took me more that one reading [sometimes several] of Ray's articles to get a better understanding of what he was saying.  You have been given a some helpful paths to follow and I hope you take advantage of the help you have been given.  I also hope that you do not feel reluctant to ask more questions. 


Joe and Diana,

Thank you so much for your posts.  Both of you are so well spoken and I am certainly of like mind with both of you on this.

Arcturus,

I hear you loud and clear.  I am no stranger to tough love on both issuing and receiving ends.  What it gets down to with me is where it is appropriate.  I hear so much that we need to be like Jesus as a reason for being rude and sarcastic.  It is true that we need to try to be as much like Jesus as we can possibly be as God will allow.  Even so, I am scratching my brain trying to come up with examples of where Jesus treated his apostles the same way he treated the scribes and pharisees.  Perhaps some scriptural quotes along those lines will help in the discernment of this.

Until we know a person is not truly seeking truth or unless they go against the rules, why are we not to treat them as Jesus did his apostles. What good does it do to beat up Christ's lambs except to bolster our own egos.  Edifying responses and guidance really make more sense to me.  If we question a person's motives then,  as Craig said, the moderators can deal with it.  You can always take a firm hand without being lovey dovey or rude.


Jackie Lee

Thanks for those cites on the tongue.  It sort of gave me an alternate way of thinking about "speaking in tongues" ;D

be blessed
feat
« Last Edit: July 29, 2007, 04:12:20 PM by Harryfeat »
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Common objections
« Reply #55 on: July 29, 2007, 05:08:00 PM »

Hello Feat

To answer your request for scriptures.

Mark 8:33 but turning around, His back to Peter, and SEEING HIS DISCIPLES, HE REBUKED PETER, saying, Get behind me, Satan! For you do not have a mind intent on promoting what God wills, but what pleases men, you are not on God's side, but that of men.

Here is a teaching from Ray available on his transcripts titled Re: Transcript of Ray's talk on Repentance 

The disciples who were following Christ, that had a beam in their eye, a 2x4, these are the few.  The ones that had the speck in their eye, these are the many.  But how can that be?  That doesn't make sense.  It makes sense if you understand that this parable is part of the first two verses.
Why is He berating them here a little bit?  I mean He's not just casually talking, He says “you hypocrites (He‘s calling His own disciples hypocrites), first cast the beam out of your own eye and you shall be able to see clearly to cast the mote out of your brothers eye.”
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.0.html

Here are some more scriptures :

John 21 : 22 Jesus said to him, (Peter) if I want him (John, the disciple whom Jesus loved,)to stay, survive, live until I come, what is that to you: What concern is it of yours? YOU follow Me!

John 16:29 His disciples said, Ah, now You are speaking plainly to us and not in parables, veiled language and figures of speech! 31 Jesus answered them, Do you now believe? Do you believe at last?

Jesus asked the question. Do we think that Jesus did not know that they did not understand and nor could they until He sent to them His Spirit to open their minds and convert them at Pentecost?

I believe the holiest preserve of Babylonian teachings is the lie that Jesus was soft and compromising and we should wear masks of pretense doubleminded hypocrisy and twofaced deception in order to be like Him. Babylon is a master at this deception that disarms criticism against her and teaches it to her audiences to blind them from the Heroic uncompromising Son of God. Babylone does not worship or know Jesus for who He is and teaches a defenseless failure of a Christ who can not and will not succeed in saving EVERYONE!

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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Harryfeat

  • Guest
Re: Common objections
« Reply #56 on: July 29, 2007, 05:45:46 PM »

Hey Arcturus,

Thanks for the excellent cites.  Jesus certainly didn't pull any punches when he felt they were wrong.  While your scripture quotes are spot on to how Jesus treated his apostles, it does not seem to depict  sarcasm.  Calling them hypocrites is certainly straight forward rebuking and chastisement. 

I am in agreement with you that there should be no soft peddling for wrong doing and wrong mindedness.  I   think tough love is important.  My basic concern is the appropriateness of when it is used.  What I don't understand is why sarcasm and rudeness is deemed  necessary when dealing with those intent on learning.  [I agree on the exception to the rule idea and sometimes it is necessary].  In most cases though, where people are intent on learning the truth, it is my opinion that rudeness and sarcasm are completely out of order. [Of course if meant to be a joke and displayed as a joke to lighten things up is a totally different matter.  I am talking about sarcasm designed to make the other person look small or otherwise being derogatory.]


Thanks again for these examples and your other posts here. They were a clear reminder to me that not only does tough love have a place but it is important to put into action where necessary. 

be blessed
feat


« Last Edit: July 29, 2007, 05:52:08 PM by Harryfeat »
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Common objections
« Reply #57 on: July 29, 2007, 06:50:16 PM »

Hello Feat

You are welcome.

If by some small possibility, (and if I am wrong please forgive me, I apologise) you are calling me "rude inappropriate, tough love" but with some merit or "place" here in the Forum then I would hope for an apology. If not, then who ever you are referring to as rude, inappropriate and tough....I do not know who you are talking about or who you are referring to.  I do not know anyone like that here in the Forum.

I also do not have any associations with any people like that either.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
« Last Edit: July 29, 2007, 06:52:33 PM by Arcturus »
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Harryfeat

  • Guest
Re: Common objections
« Reply #58 on: July 29, 2007, 07:36:50 PM »

Hello Feat

You are welcome.

If by some small possibility, (and if I am wrong please forgive me, I apologise) you are calling me "rude inappropriate, tough love" but with some merit or "place" here in the Forum then I would hope for an apology. If not, then who ever you are referring to as rude, inappropriate and tough....I do not know who you are talking about or who you are referring to.  I do not know anyone like that here in the Forum.

I also do not have any associations with any people like that either.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)


Hey Arcturus,

Your apology is unwarranted but accepted nonetheless. I wasn't,  of course,  referring to you in any way. Please do not take what I considered a discussion in general as though I was applying it to you. I was trying articulate my perspective on how to "be like Jesus" . It hadn't occurred to my that you would take any of it personally.   I do find it interesting that you would have expected an apology though.  My idea of tough love does not necessarily include rudeness or sarcasm.  I believe the last examples you gave us were of Jesus using what I consider tough love.  He didn't pull any punches. He told them exactly what He thought without using sarcasm. 

Your opinion of what is rude and inappropriate seems to be different from mine. That's expected, not surprising and what "makes the world go around."  Here is what is funny about the whole situation to me.  Isn't it rude to  call someone rude?  I have been known to be very rude and sarcastic at times but I try to be appropriately so. [I don't always meet my goals even though I do try.:D]

I hope that answers your concern.  Please PM me to discuss further because I am starting to feel  a little guilty about hijacking this thread.

be blessed
feat
« Last Edit: July 29, 2007, 07:45:49 PM by Harryfeat »
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Common objections
« Reply #59 on: July 30, 2007, 02:56:15 AM »

Hello Harryfeat

Apology withdrawn as you make it plain that it was not necessary. THANKS!  ;D

As to your other comments about what you think my opinion is of what is rude or inappropriate, suffice to say it would be inappropriate to discuss this here in the Forum! ;D

So back to work on the real reason I am here.

To learn. To grow in the image and likeness of Christ. Now that's scriptural! :D ;D

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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