Common objections

[Oblivion582]

I know this topic has most likely been runned down to the ground when it comes to the mortal soul. BUT, I was just wondering what are the most common objections to death not being death? If I tell someone when we die, we're dead, until the resurrection, what scriptures will this someone come back at me with, opposing the idea? And if you could, comment on the "objecting" scriptures.

[Robin]

A lot of the answers you are looking for are on this page.

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html

Ray gives lots of examples and then gives the answer.

[jER]

Read:   "Lazarus and the Rich Man."

http://bible-truths.com/lazarus.html

- jER

[Dean Peterman]

Dear Oblivion,

Here is my thought.  This belief has been so ingrafted into peoples thinking during the past 6000 years that they really have no idea why they believe it.  I've read hundreds of books on religion and talked to hundreds of people and listened to hundreds of sermons and not once did anyone ever even ask the question, "Do we really have an immortal soul."  It is an assumed belief.  The first time I heard someone say we did not have an immortal soul I was shocked.  It sounded totally delusional to me.  I think the reason it took me so long to see the truth even after I starting studying the subject is because it took me time to overcome my emotional attachment to it. 

I have now read many of the objections to the belief in a mortal soul and there are very few verses that even hint that we have an immortal soul.  The strongest philosophical argument against belief in a mortal soul is the fear that we will not be the same person.  People feel that if we don't have an immortal soul then we will really not be the same person when we are resurrected.  They believe that we are really being re-created not resurrected. They say this makes us a different person.

Sincerely,

Dean

[Jackie Lee]

I have always wondered if our memory will be intact?
I think it would be really neat to wake up after many years even hundreds and remember what happened before they died.

[Oblivion582]

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in gehenna (Matt. 10:28).

What does this mean? It sounds like someone could kill a person, but not their soul? I thought if you kill someone, their soul dies? It sounds like Jesus said people can kill the BODY...but not the soul. Any thoughts on this?

[Kat]

Hi Falconn,

Cool diagram 

I think people fear the unknown and that is what death is to them.  Regardless that Christiandom teaches they will go to heaven, since there is no scripture to explain their vague teaching, people don't have confidence.  So death is a great unknown and it scares people.  They hang on to the hope that they are immortal and will pass into some Paradise. 
The scripture that I think they use;

2Co 5:8  We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

They say this verse means they will immediately be with the Lord at death.  Not so, 'to be' does not mean immediate, they read that into it because of their false way of thinking.
When they awake they are going to be with the Lord alright, but it will be at the great white throne judgment.  They are not taught they will have to give account, they think their sins are forgiven and that's that.  When they are made to face up to their lusts, it will be a tormenting experience to get rid of them. 
Death is not to be feared.  The judgment is.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Oblivion582]

2Co 5:8  We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

It sounds like he's not even talking about the resurrection. The resurrection = body/spirit. He said to be 'absent' from the 'body'. When the resurrection comes, we'll be present with our bodies. So...maybe he's talking about crucifying the flesh?

[ez2u]

This is a wonderful teaching that helps us to get focus on our job in obedience to christ. peggy

[hillsbororiver]

Hello Oblivion,

Actually I can see it as Paul looking forward to the resurrection even as he experiences this dying to the flesh.

Hi Rodger,

Yes! A new incorruptable body, no longer subject to sin.

1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Co 15:53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The destruction of this body of sin and to be resurrected incorruptable should be the hope of us all, seeking Him in Spirit is our walk, our journey, the crucifying of our carnal nature and the conception of His Spirit within us is what gives us that hope.

Rom 6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Rom 8:10  And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

His Peace to you,

Joe

[Falconn003]

Hello Kat and Joe.....waves....

Good point Joe,,,,,,,,,,I see both ways really   

Rodger

[Oblivion582]

Thanks guys. Keep the comments coming because I want to be totally convinced of this. I've seen alot of the scriptures that say we're dead...but I now I just want all the objections settled. But not only will it be clear for me, I'll be able to have a answer to the fundies.

[Prosizz]

The objections lie with you not believeing the Word of God and nothing else is to blame. The Holy Spirit brought forth unto you ALL THESE SCRIPTURES and If not one of these scripture and 2 witnesses implanted the truth, for what they are, in you.  Then your are pottery for a different purpose my freind.

peace and conviction
Rodger

Rodger, Let people express themselves.  Oblivion is here to learn, he should be free to ask any question he wants.
Your brutal words do not edify anybody. Remember we all not alike, perhaps by the grace of God you are quick at renewing you mind but not all are like you. So, remember that patience, kindness are part of the elements of the fruit of the Spirit.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Prosizz

Have you met Jesus lately? Here He is............

"But WOE unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES... FOR YOU SHUT UP THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN AGAINST MEN...

...THEY BIND HEAVY BURDENS and GRIEVOUS to be born, and lay them on men's shoulders; but will not move them with ONE OF THEIR FINGERS

WOE unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES... you DEVOUR WIDOW'S HOUSES... you shall receive the greater damnation.

WOE unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES...

WOE unto you, ye BLIND GUIDES...

You FOOLS AND BLIND...

You FOOLS AND BLIND...

WOE unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES! You... have omitted... JUDGMENT, MERCY, and FAITH...

You BLIND GUIDES, which strain out a gnat, and SWALLOW A CAMEL.

WOE unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES... within they are full of EXTORTION AND EXCESS.

You BLIND PHARISEES...

WOE unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES! You are FULL OF DEAD MEN'S BONES, and ALL UNCLEANESS... and HYPOCRISY and INIQUITY...

WOE unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES!... you are the children of them which KILLED the prophets. FILL YOU UP then the measure of your fathers.

You SERPENTS, you GENERATION OF SNAKES... you KILL AND CRUCIFY... you SCOURGE in your synagogues... Behold your house is left unto you DESOLATE"!!

WOW! Every one of these comments from Matt. 23 were spoken directly to the "Religious Scholars and Theologians" in the Church of God centered at the Temple in Jerusalem. Would Jesus speak in the same manner to the Religious Scholars and Theologians in God's Church today? Does Jesus "change"? NO. Has the Church changed in the past 2000 years? YES. It has gotten WORSE.

http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm

....

Prosizz

Babylon has for century's taught us to be sweet, cushy and cozy and never to ruffle any feathers! We are not supposed to be sitting ducks and a firm word or two sometimes works to shake us out of our Babylonian apathy and spiritual coma.

Have you ever witnessed someone flat lining and the medical team gather round to give a electric shock... Stand clear... and BOOM!... and the person wakes up. That is good medicine! Sometimes this forum is like ICU or I see you!

The call "Don't electrocute the patient you cruel beast..." just might kill him....not the beast ...the patient!

All in love Prosizz...fear not!...

Peace to you

Arcturus

[seminole]

We aren't Jesus. We are mere humans and are trying to learn and understand what we can. There does not need to be criticisms directed towards those of us who learn in a different manne than someone else.

[Deborah-Leigh]

We aren't Jesus but we are supposed to be LIKE HIM! 

[seminole]

Exactly! We are supposed to be like Him! The sacrifice, the love, the forgiveness, the doing unto others. I am no judge of people being that we all sin. i know Jesus slapped that whip around in the temple and I know it was because people were not giving their best as the custom of that day. They were "robbing" God by giving the least of what they had instead of the best. I can't judge you or anybody else because I don't have that ability. According to the e-mails Ray gets some people judge him according to how and what he writes. Is that right? No! Can others judge me? You can try but do not have that right.

[Kat]

Hi seminole,

i know Jesus slapped that whip around in the temple and I know it was because people were not giving their best as the custom of that day. They were "robbing" God by giving the least of what they had instead of the best.

Here is the scripture you were referring to. 

John 2:15  When He had made a whip of cords, He drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen, and poured out the changers' money and overturned the tables.
v. 16  And He said to those who sold doves, "Take these things away! Do not make My Father's house a house of merchandise!"

Jesus ran them out of the temple because He said, "Do not make My Father's house a house of merchandise."  This sounds like He didn't like them selling things and making money.  This sounds a lot like what is a common practice for preachers today, selling there ware(books, cds, videos) in the church.  What would Jesus say about that?

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Oblivion582]

Thanks prosizz. And Falcon, you have to understand I come from a religious home with a (pretty much) one minded dad. I want to be clear on ALL the scriptures so when I see what looks like a contradiction, I want somebodys input. I asked God to reveal some truth to me and wouldn't you know it...He lead me to bible-truths.com.

[GODSown1]

mate!,
        dez pple r jus lookn 4 Help not 2 b critised or spoken harsh of, Wen JESUS spoke like HE did whom!! was d@ 2??, cum on get real!, yes! b like JESUS! NOT!! be JESUS! wakeup!!, who wants 2 b around pple like dis, man! I had enuff of d@ sh#$* wen I was a Gang member, Im startn 2 c not much difference, Jus know, We LOVE!! GOD wit all our Hearts, Souls, Minds & Strength, az I presume uZ! do 2??.
        muchLOVE!! Pera