Hello Joe
To become Christ like is our reward.
We have to be either hot or cold!
Joe, you ask :
Should we be rigid in all our interactions with our brethren? Matt 5:20
For I tell you, unless your righteousness is more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.So how RIGID must we be? Is this getting a bit icy already?… As in uncompromising, unyielding as flint and having no fellowship with darkness…. or not?….I know Joe is not a coward that will run… so let me warm up a little.…
In the Forum we can answer only what is written. We know little else about one another to go on. We have no insight into what pains, burdens or sufferings a member is enduring in the background of what they contribute. That is a good thing because such information can sway, manipulate, confuse, add to the slur of deceptions that teach and lead into condescension towards man carnal sentimentality's. Paul wrote that he was :
."resolved to know nothing, to be acquainted with nothing, to make a display of the knowledge of nothing, and to be conscious of nothing among you except Jesus Christ the Messiah and Him crucified." 1 Cor 2:2 How does this scripture talk to you? What do you understand by it?
Rays teachings state :
First, let me state my position succinctly:
1 Whatever we teach must "glorify" God
"Glory to God in the highest..." (Lk 2:14)
"...that in all God may be glorified..." (1Pt 4:11)
2. Whatever we teach must not detract on iota from Christ’s sacrifice for all humanity.
....there is one....mediator between God and men....Christ Jesus......" unquote
Should WE not have the same standards ? I think yes we should.
There was a beautiful discussion on this very point where Joe and I were caused to exchange some precious insights with others who also powerfully contributed gems of wisdom to this question. So there is no need to go over these questions here and now but for those who may want to visit or revisit this exchange it is available on the tread at :
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2392.0.htmlI believe that, as Ray is accountable, WE too are accountable and have to answer to what is written on the Forum. Our membership is not without accountability to God. Either that or we can stand back and observe what is the abundance of the heart as expressed in what is written and do and say nothing. Some cannot say or do anything but observe, learn and pray and to them there is no condemnation. Participation may be either active or passive seen or unseen. There are those however, who are called to lower the standard of right standing with God, and are appointed to do so.
Should we not all agree that Ray is not one who is lowering right standing before God? On the contrary. Ray elevates understanding and faith and knowledge of Christ. We should, but we don’t all agree with Gods teachings through Ray. Paul and Christ certainly were not among those appointed to lower, deceive and mislead. Christ, Paul, The Word of God and Ray our teacher in this generation are role models to right standing and knowledge of God and His Son Jesus Christ no matter how rightly or wrongly, agreeable or disagreeably we view this fact.
We are NOT, in this world or in this Forum, as we should be, all building up Christ’s body to know His Character Ways and Thoughts. We are not all developing until we attain unity in knowledge of the Son of God that is vividly expressed and revealed in Rays teachings. If I lie, then the notification that not all the things that are written in the Forum are endorsed by Ray and agreed by Ray to be the truth, can be removed. Can this disclaimer be removed? NO. The sooner we grasp the nettle of the fact that there are false teachings carried by some of us, among US in the Forum, the sooner this can be repaired. Christ has not yet returned and the work is still on to labour in the field. The Forum is not outside the field. It is a very privileged part of it.
Joe you ask :
Can we discern a misguided idea from a person who is honestly searching? Sure. Some of us can and then what? Do we turn left or right? Do we focus on the misguided (FOOLISH, OR UNREASONABLE ESPECIALLY IN ACTION OR BEHAVIOUR…) idea? Do we respond as Rodger says quote :
"[1] preach with sound doctrine and [2] refute those who contradict it"
[Titus 1:9 - The New Revised Standard Version] And to add 2 Cor 10 : 5
Inasmuch as we refute arguments…ARGUMENTS. and theories and reasoning’s and every proud and lofty thing that sets itself up AGAINST THE TRUE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD; we lead every thought and purpose away captive into obedience of Christ. Do we, do you, do I, does anyone, do as Christ says to do OR do we turn left into guiding or directing wrongly away from exposing lies, in avoidance of challenging rebellion against the truth, with self investing pride that inflates and puffs up making for MORE ignorance of the truth, doting over questions of the law, debating’s, splitting hairs and pitting factions against others, envying, sour tempers, strife’s over doctrines, perverse and vain arguments, rejecting the truth because of corrupt minds, being destitute of truth but rich in fallacies and doctrines of emotions, seeking personal gain, railings, evil speaking, evil surmising and suspicions? (All the above are traits of FALSE TEACHERS ref 1 Tim 6 : 3-5)
Joe you ask should we be RIDGED? YES Joe…WE SHOULD! Not as rigormortis in a chorus of dead letters of the word in self assured piety gathered together in mutual agreement that together make a dead body, but ridged as in individually responsive to the call to overcome deception and GETTING INTO THE FACE OF carriers of Babylonian gaff increasing pig food of Babylonian feel good ideas, fables and false teaching! HEY we do not have to go out and look for it….I am not suggesting that for a moment!
The blade of the wheat gatherer is curved and it cuts as it gathers to God not man gathering to himself. The harvest has been great…indeed 2000 years great in years not numbers saved or chosen. In each generation few not many are gleaned/called out from the many Babylonian false teachings deceptions, heresies and blasphemies. Few get dragged out. Many stay in. God made this so.
Should we get upset with God for this? NO.
Should we rail against Gods ways and get into debates and arguments with them who are in Babylon? No. Should we upset ourselves that many are deceived? No. For such a time as Gods Mercy to them, they are made to be subject to reprobate minds, errors and blindness. Should we despise the lies and heresy though? YES! Should we expose such? YES. Should we do so then give up in defeat that still the blind are blind and the deaf and the false teachers remain so and get more followers right before our very own eyes even among them who say and appear at first glance to be our own brothers and sisters? NO!
You ask me Joe :
What do you believe is the "fruit" Christ speaks of here?Luk 8:15
But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.Precisely! The patience to endure the circumcision on the heart that breaks under the trial and strain of the call to overcome the fact that God has made it so that
the wicked increase against the truth, as evil seducers wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. 2 Tim 3:13
It is exactly ENDURANCE and enduring and overcoming the call to
speak SMOOTHY the SMOOTH things that prophesy DECEITS Isa 30:10 and in NOT yielding to temptation or resisting evil with evil but by endurance of heart break still turning the other cheek and keeping ones face as flint knowing and sharing with Christ the evil surmising, covert hostility, criticisms for being cruel, mean or unsympathetic and all the slander false accusations and persecution and hate that calls us to OVERCOME not yield to temptation but leave to God our judgment who is the fair Judge of all men. In so doing to walk in the word of God being judged of no man though we be slandered, hated, rejected, railed against and persecuted for 1 Cor 2:15
the spiritual man tries all things, he examines, investigates, inquires into, questions, and discerns all things, yet himself to be put on trial and judged by NO ONE…Why NO ONE…? So what is persecution, being hated etc? Is that judgment of man? NO it is because the spiritual man has his trust in God His trial is not of man but of God bringing judgment to HIS House via the tests and trials of mans slander, through the onslaught against God loving hearts that can see evil prosper for the brevity that it triumphs. (which for man could be for the entire duration of his life time if chosen. )
And Bulls eye…the call of Christ to ENDURE the HATE for this life that is engulfed by perilous times, surrounded by lovers of their own selves, blasphemers, trucebreakers, false accusers, fierce despisers of those who are good, traitors, high minded haughty lovers of their own ideas and imaginings rather than lovers of Christ, deniers of the power and teaching and CHARACTER of Christ who are ever learning and NEVER ABLE TO COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, compromisers, lukewarm middle of the road stuck on the fence cowards…..enduring this Joe is the fruit of patience as I see it whose virtue is under sever trial and testing from holier than thou peace keeping idolatry of harlot Babylon via her representatives and cronies.
You observe and then ask:
There is no doubt that heresy and blasphemy must be addressed with a two edged sword when it is continuing from the same source.
How do we deal with our children when they make a mistake due to ignorance or immaturity?How do WE deal with our children? Lets look at how GOD deals with HIS CHILDREN and lets not make GOD into OUR OWN IMAGE….Lets NOT DO THAT or teach that or endorse such sentiments Joe. At our PERIL we do that!
Rev 3: 19
THOSE WHO I DEARLY AND TENDERLY LOVE, I TELL THEIR FAULTS AND CONVICT AND CONVINCE AND REPROVE AND CHASTEN, I DISCIPLINE AND INSTRUCT THEM. SO BE ENTHUSIASTIC AND IN EARNEST AND BURNING WITH ZEAL AND REPENT, CHANGING YOUR MIND AND ATTITUDE.Only ********, snakes, fools and hypocrites, whitened sepulchres, harlots, children of the devil and those who do not do the things Christ are the wolves who will want to be saved from Gods tender love! They will rail at and whimper in carnal accusations of feelings hurt who deny the pruning sheers of God that cuts the branch that will not grow and the branch that bears fruit. The despise the winnowing fork of God. Only the ones wanting to be SAVED FROM CIRCUMSISION will seek fellowship comfort zones in harlot teachings. Woe to them who gather to themselves the plagues of Babylon.
You ask :
How do we deal with our children when they make a mistake due to ignorance or immaturity?OUR CHILDREN? WHO’S CHILDREN? ….IGNORANCE? What is ignorance? It is a lack in knowledge, awareness or being unenlightened. So how should we respond:
2Cor2:17
For we are not like SO MANY like hucksters making a trade of peddling God’s Word, shortchanging and adulterating the divine message; but like men of sincerity and the purest motive, as commissioned and sent by God, we speak HIS MESSAGE in Christ, in the very sight and presence of GOD.1 Cor 2:13
And we are setting these truths forth in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, combining and interpreting spiritual truths with spiritual language to those who possess the Holy Spirit. ( So…Who’s Children?) 14
But the natural, nonspiritual man DOES NOT ACCEPT OR WELCOME OR ADMIT INTO HIS HEART THE GIFTS AND TEACHINGS AND REVELATIONS OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD….( Which children? Devil kids aren’t going like to think I am their Mother that’s for good and sure I think! And their parents friends and family are not going to like me much either!)
There is some ignorance that has MATURED to great levels of maturation in that they pose confusion and beg sentimentality and compliance to their fears of rebuke for loathsome crooked beliefs that do nothing to show Christ and His Character or HIS ways. You need not look very far and there are some appalling examples of such that come across the nostrils as a stench from perdition…that is if your nostrils are open like mine that is! Oh for endurance!
Heb 12 : 6,7
For the Lord corrects and disciplines everyone whom He loves, and He punishes, even scourges, every son whom He accepts and welcomes to His heart and cherishes. 7. You must submit to and endure correction for discipline; God is dealing with you as with sons, For what son is their whom his father does not train and correct and discipline?Perhaps open nostrils are God’s way of training! Closed eyes noses and ears are for those who hear not see not and smell not! Ignorance is bliss to the ignorant. Woe, persecution, rejection oppression and persecution to those who would threaten their bliss.
Okay so that part deals with IGNORANCE…now to answer your question on how to deal with immaturity, or children who are not fully grown or developed, who are lacking in wisdom, insight, emotional stability? Well go for it Joe. THERE your selection of scriptures come forward into perspective to rightfully and scripturally to nurture the teachable Children of God. Pearls are not for the rebellious, idol clinging closed nosed blind and closed eared children of Babylon. Rebuke is perchance they should repent and find favour with the Lord.
Immature children are in both camps. The camp of God and Babylon! By their TEACHINGS and BELIEFS and PREFERENCES you shall know them! Will they or do they gnash their teeth when their idols are smashed? Or do they kneel in cleansing goodness of God’s Spirit of goodness that brings them to tearful remorse and heart cut repentance? What and who is this God we call God? Baal or Christ? Who are the children of the first resurrection and the second?
To children of God wisdom is food not poison. The scriptures expound this difference too between the way a wise person will receive instruction and the way a fool rejects it and hates you for it too. So…. Children…you say… Which children? Children per se! NO. Weak emotional debutants of social harlotry, idolater and prom bearers of deceptive emotional carnal prideful self willed blindness. NO. Not mine! Don’t know them! Their Dad is someone I do not entertain under my roof. That Father of lies is persona non-gratis with all his wives, fellowship circles and concubines too!
So what is the fruit of patience.?.... For me, in my personal experience it is Endurance under suffering without quitting no matter how evil things get or how much the evil enlarges, no matter how the stench of deception rises….endurance to the end….seeing the beam or mote…not the dust….NO DUST JOE! And being beaten by slander, false accusations, persecution hate and rejections….in other words…this being the way into the Kingdom of God via such trials.
You make your point well Joe ...
that the Apostles were with Christ for three and a half years and still did not get it BUT Heb 12 : 5…
have you completely forgotten the divine word and appeal and encouragement in which you are reasoned with and addressed as son? Can Paul say this to you or I Joe? : O you poor and silly Joe and Arcturus. You thoughtless and unreflecting and senseless….WHO? (Which CHILDREN HAVE….) fascinated or bewitched or cast a spell over you, unto whom –right before your very eyes – Jesus Christ was openly and graphically set forth and portrayed and crucified? Let me ask you this one question : Did you receive the Holy Spirit…Then does HE Who supplies you with His marvellous Spirit and works powerfully and miraculously among you do so on the grounds of your doing what the Law demands, or because of your believing in and adhering to and trusting in and relying on the MESSAGE that you heard. Ref Gal 3
THAT MESSAGE IS LOUD AND CLEAR IN THE TEACHINGS VIA RAY SMITH!….You Fools You Hypocrites! You Snakes! I hope aren’t MY kids!..I do not want to baby sit devils or provide a nursery for snakes.
Finally you quote this Joe :
Last but not least we have this from Paul on how we should deal with our brothers and sisters;
1Th 5:14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.Is Paul talking about how we should deal with OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS?
I don’t think so. He speaks of ALL men ….being patient!…Being patient as we experience times when many follow their own ways and evil ascends to the heavens as in the days of Noah.
Matt 13:12
For whoever has spiritual knowledge, to him will more be given and he will be furnished richly so that he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.Will the children of God understand and the children of Satan rebel? Yes.
Hey Joe…I enjoy chatting with you! Perhaps next time just ask me one question!…at a time! My questions are all rhetorical! To be answered in the inner private closets of those who care to search, seek or respond with their own answers, thoughts and desires to know God.
Seminole
…..you ask
how do you get wisdom to know when we have reached the level necessary to post something?….LEVEL…What LEVEL? No such thing! Wisdom by definition is the comprehensive insight into the ways and purposes of God NOT a LEVEL where you can post or not. The beginning of Wisdom is : GET WISDOM (Not for knowing when to post in the Forum! But AS) SKILLFUL AND GODLY WISDOM. (That is as God wise to God and knowledge of Him and His Son) For skillful and godly Wisdom is the principal thing. (So you are on the right track with the wrong reason perhaps!) And with all you have gotten, get UNDERSTANDING, DISCERNEMT, COMPREHENSION AND INTERPRETATION.. ….
There is PLENTY opportunity to exercise to get understanding, discernment, comprehension and interpretation through reading Rays teachings. This Forum is also such a place as God sees fit to provide to exercise such understanding, discernment comprehension and interpretation.
Rodger you say :
I am but a measly hierling , …
I neither think or hope so!….
Peace to you
Arcturus