> General Discussions
Hebrews 9:26
enarchay:
--- Quote ---
"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is JESUS CHRIST. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, WOOD, HAY, STUBBLE; Every man’s work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed BY FIRE; and the FIRE shall TRY EVERY MAN’S WORK of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be BURNED, he shall SUFFER LOSS; but [pay close attention to this BIG BUT] BUT HE HIMSELF [the one who had his works burned and consumed in God’s consuming fire] SHALL BE SAVED [What will save him?], yet so AS BY FIRE" (I Cor. 3:11-15)!!!
--- End quote ---
That is referring to the works of Christians. The lowest layer of the foundation is Christ, and then what you build upon that foundation are the things that will be judged. Non-Christians do not build upon the foundation of Christ, but upon another foundation.
Notice:
--- Quote ---1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
--- End quote ---
The ones that build upon the foundation are the ones who accept Jesus as the Messiah. The foundation that Paul layed was the Gospel. However, there were people who denied the foundation, and thus became cut-off from the tree of Israel.
Those who do not build upon the Messiah build upon their own sins:
--- Quote ---Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
--- End quote ---
Christians destroy the foundation of sin, and lay their works upon a new foundation, the Messiah.
What happens to those who do not lay their works upon the foundation of the Gospel? Look to Malachi:
--- Quote ---Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
--- End quote ---
The wicked become the stubble. The stubble are not the works of the wicked, unlike the stubble of Christians that represents their works. Those that "do wickedly, shall be stubble," not "the works of those who do wickedly, shall be stubble." That means the wicked, not their works, are burned up so they are left neither root nor branch (they are destroyed). Yet, the ones who follow the Messiah, represented by silver, are purged and saved. This, however, in my opinion, does not refer to the lake of fire, but to the national judgment of gehenna fulfilled in A.D. 70. The unrepentant of Israel were slain by the very sword they lived by, whereas the nation of God's true people, the ones counted for the seed of Abraham according to faith, the Elect, were saved from this national judgment, for they listened to Christ and fled to the mountains (Mar 13:14). The gates of Hades never prevailed against the Church, the silver that God purified.
With all that said, it is not contextually wise to quote those passages as proof for Universal Salvation. Rather, those passages refer to the judgments those in Christ receive for their works in this life and perhaps in the future after resurrection. Remember Christians suffer in the present so they will be made strong in weakness (i.e. 2Co 12:9).
--- Quote ---This purging is the SECOND DEATH.
--- End quote ---
What was the first death? Were those thrown into the lake of fire purged in a first death?
You did not address any of my issues with the phrase "second death."
P.S. I'm not advocating Annihilationism, but reading the Scriptures in their propper (and often historical) contexts.
enarchay:
--- Quote from: Harryfeat on July 30, 2007, 05:44:10 PM ---Hey Enarchay,
Your arguments supporting annihilation are very similar to what mine were. I spent a great deal of time weighing those kinds against what I read in LOF series and other articles at Ray's site. I can only strongly recommend you study what he has to say on your own.
You seem to be well acquainted with scripture so it is all the more reason to see how Ray puts it together.
It took me a great deal to give up what I felt was the most accurate view. I don't any more. I have to agree with you on one point though. It more believable when compared to eternal torment.
One of the things I couldn't come to grips with in your scenario is the OT God killing flesh that had become corrupted as in Noah and S&G as compared with your expectation that God will destroy the resurrected bodies [incorruptible] He just created. For me, it doesn't seem to fit the pattern you put together.
Your post brought back a lot of memories of when I was dealing with these issues. Ray's site helped me immensely in getting a different perspective on the issues.
be blessed
feat
OOPS I was posting this while Joe posted. Great post Joe. It says so much more and gives a starting place here. Thanks Joe
--- End quote ---
Yeah that's another reason why UR is a good possibility: Why would God resurrect their bodies just to kill them again?
hillsbororiver:
--- Quote from: enarchay on July 30, 2007, 05:59:55 PM ---
What was the first death? Were those thrown into the lake of fire purged in a first death?
You did not address any of my issues with the phrase "second death."
P.S. I'm not advocating Annihilationism, but reading the Scriptures in their propper (and often historical) contexts.
--- End quote ---
This is the first death, the one all men experience;
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
This is the second;
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and whoremongers and sorcerers and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
For what purpose? To what ultimate destiny?
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Please read the articles,
Joe
enarchay:
--- Quote from: hillsbororiver on July 30, 2007, 06:17:47 PM ---
--- Quote from: enarchay on July 30, 2007, 05:59:55 PM ---
What was the first death? Were those thrown into the lake of fire purged in a first death?
You did not address any of my issues with the phrase "second death."
P.S. I'm not advocating Annihilationism, but reading the Scriptures in their propper (and often historical) contexts.
--- End quote ---
This is the first death, the one all men experience;
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
This is the second;
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and whoremongers and sorcerers and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
For what purpose? To what ultimate destiny?
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Please read the articles,
Joe
--- End quote ---
What is the first death all experience like and how is the second death in any way similar to it?
Kat:
Hi enarchay,
All go throught a physical death.
All will also go throught a death to the carnal flesh, this is the judgment on the elect now. Later in the Lake of fire, for the rest of humanity.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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