> General Discussions
Hebrews 9:26
enarchay:
--- Quote from: Harryfeat on July 30, 2007, 04:01:25 PM ---Hey Enarchay,
I was hung up on annihilationism until Ray pointed out some of his articles to read. My point of hangup was that I couldn't find any scriptural direct reference to where the Lake of Fire would end and that everything throw into the lake would cease to exist like death.
Alex is correct, Ray has some great scriptural references and interpretations that will probably help you past this like it did for me.
Please spend some time reading Ray's Lake of Fire series. You will be rewarded.
BTW ....Ray promised an upcoming paper that deals with the "myth" of reincarnation, in case you are still battling with that issue.
be blessed
feat
--- End quote ---
I'm definitely not battling with reincarnation. I believe when we die, we're dead.
As for annihilationism, unless you can say that the "second death" does not refer to the first physical death, then it is a very likely doctrine. If we say "second death" relates with a brief separation from God, until their incorporation into New Jerusalem, then not much is separating us from those who teach a doctrine of eternal separation from God. Some would say "second death" refers to death to sin, but this is too far of a stretch, because those thrown into the lake of fire had never died to their flesh in the first place (so it would not be a "second death," but a "first death"). Additionally, throughout the Bible we have God dealing with sin with death: Adam and Eve sin, so God sentences them to an eventually death; when the world becomes sinful, God floods it; when Sodom and Gomorrah becomes corrupt, he rains fire and brimstone on it; etc. etc. etc. Why is God going to change his ways of dealing with sin with the lake of fire?
Yet, we have a view near the end of Revelation that their are leaves extending from the trees of life for the healing of the nations (the same Greek word translated "Gentile"). So if those outside the gates in the lake of fire remain conscious, and are not destroyed, then we have an image of them eventually being healed. With this view, it is as if they become as the Gentiles once were: they are outside the gates, wanting the crumbs that fall from the table. If we look at the Gentiles, eventually God has mercy and incorporates them into his Covenant. If those outside the gates like Gentiles in the lake of fire are not destroyed, then they will be healed, after the ages of the ages (whenever that is), they will be accepted into New Jerusalem.
All these different and very likely views are reasons for why I’m not decided on either Annihilationism or Universal Salvation. But one thing is for sure: the doctrine of eternal torment is not Biblical.
hillsbororiver:
That is good advice feat, here is where you might start enarchay;
God IS this lake of fire!
But since it is not literal fire, what does it burn? What does it consume? -- It is the "works of the flesh" that made sinners of those thrown into the lake of fire in the first place. And we shall see from the Scriptures that it is these very works of the flesh that are consumed in this lake of fire. And don’t think for a moment that it is not a most painful and tormenting experience to have one’s carnal mind with all its ungodly passions, thoughts and deeds, burned clean and pure by the consuming fire of God’s Holy Spirit!
God doesn’t change. He will use the same method in the day of judging at the white throne as He uses on US. Although the intensity will get considerably more severe for those who blaspheme till the end.
We are saved by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8). However, that does not purge us from all our filthy thoughts and deeds. No, there is more. There is also a consuming FIRE that God uses on us:
"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is JESUS CHRIST. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, WOOD, HAY, STUBBLE; Every man’s work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed BY FIRE; and the FIRE shall TRY EVERY MAN’S WORK of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be BURNED, he shall SUFFER LOSS; but [pay close attention to this BIG BUT] BUT HE HIMSELF [the one who had his works burned and consumed in God’s consuming fire] SHALL BE SAVED [What will save him?], yet so AS BY FIRE" (I Cor. 3:11-15)!!!
Ah dear readers, can we begin to understand the workings of God? God consumes with fire, the wood, hay and stubble in our lives. The things that don’t deserve to continue. But he REFINES the gold, silver, and precious stones (those doctrines and godly character traits of God’s spirit that abide the fire). It is figurative language, it is an analogy, it is a parable, it is metaphorical (where one thing is called another thing). Our lives have either qualities of character (which are likened to gold and precious stones, things of value to refine and retain), or gross lacks in character (which are likened to wood, hay, and stubble and which are not worthy to retain or preserve).
And just as real literal fire is used to refine and purify gold and precious metals, so God’s SPIRITUAL FIRE refines and purifies us from our sinful and carnal nature. And likewise, as real literal fire is used to burn up wood and stubble, so God’s all consuming SPIRITUAL FIRE will consume and burn up all the impurities in our life. These things MUST DIE. This purging is the SECOND DEATH. And whether the person God subjects to His consuming fire has many good qualities or none, the person himself shall be purged, purified, and SAVED BY GOD’S ALL-CONSUMING SPIRITUAL FIRE!!! We just read it in God’s Holy Word. How can any deny it? Every person who has ever lived will be subjected to the cleaning fire of God’s spirit.
God is the JUDGE (Rev. 20;12). NOT Satan. This judgment throne is "WHITE" not black! God judges in righteousness.
"He shall judge the world with RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Psalm 96:13)
"Because He [God] hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Acts 17:31)
Next I present a Scripture that many fundamentalists hate. I’ll bet if you attended a fundamentalist church, you never heard a sermon on this verse. We read that God has appointed a day (a period of time) in which He will "JUDGE" the whole world. Revelation 20:10-15 IS THAT DAY OF JUDGMENT! Now we know that those not found in the book of life will be put into FIRE, and they will be TORMENTED. This is certainly part of this judgment. But it is not literal fire. Literal fire burns up physical things and literal fire cannot harm spiritual things. So what does the fire do or accomplish? MUCH!
This judgment in Revelation 20 IS that worldwide judgment spoken of in many prophecies. But is the purpose of this worldwide judgment to torture people by burning their flesh in real fire for all eternity? Is that HOW God judges in "righteousness"? Absolutely not. We just read where God burns up our fleshly WORKS, and this is "tormenting" for sure. But God does not torture our flesh for all eternity. Don’t get me wrong, there will be severe chastisements on those who despise God and His Savior and His Gospel. But out of there ashes will come salvation. Here is another marvelous Scripture which answers what happens to sinning humanity when God JUDGES THE WORLD in righteousness.
"For he [GOD] bringeth down them that dwell on high; the lofty city, he layeth it low, HE LAYETH IT LOW, even to the ground, he bringeth it even to the dust" (Isa. 26:4)
Make no mistake, God will judge the wicked with great severity. However, ALWAYS FOR A BENEVOLENT PURPOSE:
"With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when Thy judgments are in the earth, THE INHABITANTS OF THE WORLD WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isaiah 26:9)!!
There will come a time when those who only knew how to blaspheme the name of God, will come to LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS. They will not just "hear" of righteousness, no, they will actually "LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS"!
The whole book of Isaiah speaks of judgments on Israel and on the nations. But the end of all these judgments is SALVATION TO ALL. Notice Isa. 45:22-23,
"Look unto me, and BE YE SAVED, ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by Myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness [as in, ‘For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth,’ I Tim. 2:4] , and shall not return, That unto me EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW, EVERY TONGUE SHALL SWEAR" (See also: Phil. 2: 9-11 & I Cor. 12:3).
God’s words will NOT return empty or void. When God speaks, it will be done. When God wills, it will be done. When God desires, His desires WILL BE DONE:
"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, MY COUNSEL SHALL STAND, and I WILL DO ALL MY PLEASURE ... I have spoken it, I WILL ALSO BRING IT TO PASS; I HAVE PURPOSED IT, I WILL ALSO DO IT" (Isa. 46:10-11).
Oh the blasphemy of those who teach that God’s most heartfelt desires WILL NOT COME TO PASS, but will utterly fail!!! Jesus Christ is not the potential Savior of the world; He IS THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD!!! HE WILL SAVE THE WORLD!!!
How many self-appointed, bible-thumping, doomsday, fire and brimstone, eternal torture in hell preachers believe these verses in Isaiah? Not one that I know of! Most Christians have never been taught the Scriptures that I am giving you. These things are despised by many who call themselves "Christian." And yet, God’s Word is FULL of such statements of God’s salvation to all.
Read it all here; http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
hillsbororiver:
"The Lake of Fire!"
Part 1
A Scriptural Journey Through the Lake Burning with Fire and Brimstone,
Which is the SECOND DEATH
[The first installment - Look for new parts until completion]
Some time in the last half of the first century AD, the apostle John (whom Jesus loved) was on the Isle of Patmos when he found himself "in spirit on the Lord’s day." Among his many remarkable visions he saw this:
Revelation 19:20, "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."
Rev. 20:10, "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
Rev. 20:14-15, "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
Rev. 21:8, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
Concerning the "Second Death," John also has this to report:
Rev. 2:11, "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death."
Rev. 20:6, "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."
And finally this one:
Rev. 14:10, "...and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb."
These are all the Scriptural references in the entire Bible that mention the "lake of fire and the second death."
Theologians and clergymen by the thousands have been telling the world that this lake of fire is little more than an eternal torture chamber. It is the final HELL of eternal separation from God accompanied by unfathomable pain, torture, and despair.
We have been told that there is absolutely no possibility of ever being rescued from this hellhole of suffering and human misery where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth, as real fire barbecues their bodies, and while worms will be eating their flesh. This hideous scene is to continue day and night for trillions of billions of quadrillions of centuries upon centuries--for EVER!
We are told that those who will spend eternity in this prison of pain have themselves chosen to spend eternity there - that God doesn’t send anyone to hell, but that people actually choose, themselves, to go there. Even a fool knows that no person would ever choose such a fate, but theologians must somehow get God off of the hook of responsibility, for surely this place exists and will continue to exist for eternity they assure us.
Famous TV preachers like John Hagee tell us that "...every boy and every girl who dies without knowing Jesus Christ spends an eternity in a city where the fire is never quenched and the worm dieth not." And Mr. Hagee adds, "AND IT’S JUSTICE!"
World renowned pastor, educator, and theologian Dr. James Kennedy tells the world that for a man in India who told a lie, and for a man in the Islands who stole chickens by night to feed his family, their sins will put them into the tortures of an eternal hell, even if they never heard of the name of Jesus Christ their only possible Savior. And Dr. Kennedy adds, "HELL IS FAIR!"
Does the Word of God actually and literally teach such a hellhole of eternal torture in fire from which there is no redemption ever? Don’t be too sure till you have read this paper and compared it with Scripture. That the Scriptures do speak of a "lake of fire which is the second death" there is no denial. However:
What is it?
Where is ?
When is it?
Why is it?
Who will go there?
Is it an actual place?
And How long will it last?
What actually takes place in this lake of fire which is the second death?
Is John’s vision to be taken literally?
Does this lake of fire and second death serve no purpose other than to vent God’s frustration and vengeance on most of humanity which He Himself created?
Would a loving God really create billions and billions of people which He knew in advance He would torture for all eternity?
If ninety to ninety-five percent (a ballpark statistic used by many theologians) of humanity is destined for this atrocious destiny, how could any sane person worship a god who would design and carry out such a vile and eternal nightmare on so many billions of helpless and weak creatures?
The Scriptures answer all of these questions, and the answers are not even in the same universe with what has been popularly taught by theologians.
Some have even taught that God and His Saints will actually derive happiness and pleasure from this fabled eternal torture and misfortune of the majority of all humanity who has ever lived.
Men are bold and audacious in how they characterize the very nature of God Almighty. I heard just tonight on one of the major news channels that Saddam Hussein enjoys his leisure by watching videos of men being tortured! Most of us shudder at the very thought of anything so satanic and evil. And yet ... and YET, many theologians (and Christian lay members as well) would put God Almighty and our Lord Jesus Christ in the base company of such depraved minds! God have mercy on them all; they know not what they say!
FIVE GENERAL SCENARIOS
Let’s look at five general possibilities for the interpretation of this lake of fire and second death.
1 The teaching comprising the largest number of adherents (Christian Fundamentalists) state that the lake of fire is indeed literal fire, but that the second death part is figurative or symbolic seeing that its victims never actually become literally dead or even unconscious, but rather they interpret this second death as separation from God.
Their explanation of their belief, however, contradicts the idea that the lake of fire is literal. They teach that the lake of fire is literal fire that burns like real fire, but they then contradict the literalness of this fire by teaching that it doesn’t actually burn up anything: It just causes INSANE PAIN. But really, can a fire that doesn’t actually burn up physical, material things, be called a literal fire? And although I’ve heard many state that this metaphor is literal, this group certainly denies the literalness of the second death because they don’t believe they ever die and loose consciousness.
It is a physiological impossibility for a literal fire to cause pain on the nervous system of a person and yet never actually kill them and burn them up. Furthermore, real fire does not cause symbolic or figurative death--real fire causes real death.
2 Others (as the Jehovah's Witnesses) teach that both the lake of fire and the the second death are symbolic and not literal. They believe that this metaphor is a "word picture" that does not represent a place or condition of literal torment in literal fire. However, they believe that it does picture or represent the total annihilation of all those who are judged and are not granted salvation.
This teaching is certainly billions of times more merciful than the Christian fundamentalist theory, however, it too is unscriptural as we shall see. Not to mention the fact that it would prove our heavenly Father either unable or unwilling to save most of His own children.
What kind of an eternal example would that be for those who are saved? Does God really teach us to "train up a child in the way that he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it" (Prov. 22:6), but that God Himself is incapable of training His children in the way that they should go and that most of them WILL DEPART FROM IT?
Does God really teach us to "LOVE OUR ENEMIES" while God Himself "HATES OUR LOVED ONES" by destroying most of them for all eternity? This teaching is also blasphemous.
3 Still others teach that the "lake of fire" is figurative, but that the "fire" part of the symbolic phrase "lake of fire" is literal fire which will burn up its victims. So they interpret this as a symbolic "lake of fire" which is made up of a literal lake and literal fire. And that the second death is literal death so that its victims will be killed by this literal fire in a literal lake, which then becomes a symbolic "lake OF fire."
However, this group has a unique twist to their teaching. They believe that when the victims are thrown into the lake of fire, they have already gone through the white throne judgment and have turned to God, are now righteous, have accepted Christ as their Lord, but they must die a second time anyway. Why? I don’t know!! I am at a loss as to how Rev. 21:8 would fit into this theory,
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, SHALL HAVE THEIR PART in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death."
They don’t sound too converted to me at this point in time when they enter the lake of fire.
This group then believes that at the consummation of the ages (just as they have died a second time), they will be resurrected a second time, but this time to immortality and life with God in His Family. Though maybe not quite as blasphemous, this teaching is still unscriptural and foolish.
4 I know of no group who teaches that the lake of fire is figurative, but that the second death is literal. Such a doctrine would be akin to literally drowning in symbolic water.
5 And so that leaves one more combination, and that is that the lake of fire is figurative or symbolic and that the second death is also figurative or symbolic. I am one of a very tiny group who is of this latter persuasion.
It is the only way that these Scriptures on the lake of fire and the second death will harmonize and not contradict the rest of God’s Word. Furthermore, God plainly tells us in chapter one, verse one, that an angel "signified" this whole "Revelation of Jesus Christ" contained in this book. He "SYMBOLIZED" it, for that is what "signifies" means--to make known by signs, and signs are symbols. Therefore it can’t be literal.
http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html
Harryfeat:
Hey Enarchay,
Your arguments supporting annihilation are very similar to what mine were. I spent a great deal of time weighing those kinds against what I read in LOF series and other articles at Ray's site. I can only strongly recommend you study what he has to say on your own.
You seem to be well acquainted with scripture so it is all the more reason to see how Ray puts it together.
It took me a great deal to give up what I felt was the most accurate view. I don't any more. I have to agree with you on one point though. It more believable when compared to eternal torment.
One of the things I couldn't come to grips with in your scenario is the OT God killing flesh that had become corrupted as in Noah and S&G as compared with your expectation that God will destroy the resurrected bodies [incorruptible] He just created. For me, it doesn't seem to fit the pattern you put together.
Your post brought back a lot of memories of when I was dealing with these issues. Ray's site helped me immensely in getting a different perspective on the issues.
be blessed
feat
OOPS I was posting this while Joe posted. Great post Joe. It says so much more and gives a starting place here. Thanks Joe
Kat:
Hi enarchay,
I have brought up a few of Ray's email on judgment, to add to what Joe brought up, I hope it helps.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4075.0.html ------------------------------
Dear Brett: "Judgment" means "to set things RIGHT." This can be done by acquittal or by sentencing. We, "the house of God" are being judged NOW (I Pet. 4:17). Jesus is our Judge. We are judged for every word we think, every thing we say, and every deed we do. There are many physical, social, financial, mental, psychological, and spiritual ways in which this is accomplished. If God is calling you to be one of His chosen Elect, then what you call "life" IS THAT JUDGMENT. We are not solely judged for what we do WRONG, but we are judged by being made to live in a world of persecution for doing RIGHT. But I cannot elaborate on all the ways that this is done in detail. Jesus uses JUDGMENT, THE COUNCIL, GEHENNA FIRE, AND PRISON to Judge His disciples (Matt. 5:21-30). See also Isaiah 26:9.
It will take me nearly a hundred pages to discuss this judging. I am presently doing this in my "HELL" series. Part D-2 will be posted this weekend. There is much information regarding judging in these upcoming Installments. It is far too much to cover in emails, and the more emails I answer, the less time I have to write the answers in my "Lake of Fire" series. Hope you understand.
God be with you,
Ray
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4459.0.html ---------------------------
True, we have the statement: "NOW is the judgment of this world..." (John 12:31).
But then we also have: "Because He has appointed a day in the which He WILL JUDGE [future tense, not NOW] the world..." (Acts 17:31).
A contradictions? No, not really. We first have to understand that there have always been "Judgments" of God throughout the history of mankind. Adam and Eve were judged, then Cain, then Noah's flood, Babel, Israel, Judah, etc. Unfortunately, translating and interpreting are not easy endeavors. Frequently the Hebrew or Greek will use but one word that has numerous English equivalents. And contrariwise, frequently the Hebrew or Greek will have numerous words for which the English Language has but one. We have a similar situation in this apparent contradiction.
In John 12:31 we are told that "NOW is the JUDGMENT [Gk: 'krisis'--tribunal, justice, condemnation] of this WORLD [Gk: 'kosmos--orderly arrangement, the world, in a wide or NARROW sense,' Strong's #2889]."
Now Acts 17:31, "Because He has appointed a day in the which He WILL JUDGE [Gk: 'krino--try, condemn, punish'] the WORLD [Gk: 'oikoueme--the land, the GLOBE] in righteousness."
As you can see, both the words for "judge" and "world" are different in both verses. Concordant translates Acts 17:31, "the INHABITED EARTH," as does Rotherham's Version, "the INHABITABLE EARTH." The Emphatic Diaglott has "judge the INHABITABLE."
After Jesus' statement in John's gospel, it was but a short time that God judged Jerusalem and Palestine by having them utterly destroyed, but this was not the judgment of Acts 17:31 in which the WHOLE INHABITED GLOBE of planet earth will be judged.
Hope this helps yours understanding.
God be with you,
Ray
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3572.0.html --------------------------------
Dear Victor:
Hitler, Saddam and his sons, and people like John Hagee and Dr. Kennedy who gloat over billions being tortured for all eternity, and many more just like them, will be Judged in the VERY SAME WAY THAT THEY JUDGED OTHERS (Matt. 7:1-2). Their OWN SINS, will "TORMENT them" beyond comprehension, "in the PRESENCE of the Lamb" (Rev. 14:10), when God purges their evil consciences with His spiritual "CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).
God be with you,
Ray
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1971.0.html --------------------------------
Dear Shane:
No, God is not "unfair." You are still looking at the lake of fire as some kind of a dungion of torture in real fire. It is JUDGMENT, not solely punishment. And Jesus plainly has told us that it is according to the magnitude of one's crimes. "Many stripes versus few stripes."
We too go through the fire of God's spiritual judgment: Jugement is upon the house of God NOW (I Pet. 4:17 and Heb. 12:29). It isn't pleasant, but it is not total torture either. There are two aspects of Judgment: [1] We must be purged of our old carnal sinful attitudes, and [2] we must then grow spiritually by godly living and produce spiritual fruit (Gal. 5:22-25).
The Church only partially sees the need for these in those called in this life, but is totally blind to the fact that Judgment produces the same thing in the Resurrection to Judgment. They think that "grace" is merely a noun that does it all for us rather than grace being a verb that does it all IN us and THROUGH us (by the Spirit of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on the cross). God is ABLE to make us holy and righteous through His work in us and He is likewise able to do the same for the rest of humanity in Judgment. We blaspheme if we suggest that God either does not want to save humanity or that He is unable.
God be with you,
Ray
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