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Author Topic: Coming Out of Bablon the Right Way  (Read 3723 times)

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mcmiller

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Coming Out of Bablon the Right Way
« on: March 17, 2006, 04:53:47 PM »

Hello All,
My wife and I are in the process of separating ourselves from the church.  We have formally resigned from our positions as ushers and usher scheduler and have not attended a church service in six weeks.  What is happening now is that many of the people we called friends there are wondering what is going on.  We have received voice mails in this regard.  Being new to the truth (3 months) we are uneasy about getting into a doctrinal discussion with them, or even worse the pastor.  We are not afraid of them, but don't want to witness for the truth in an unproductive way.

What is the right way to come out of Babylon?  Mike alludes to this in his study on What is a Disciple, but really doesn't privide much guidance. Since everyone has to go through this, we were wondering if anyone has insight into better or worse ways to go about this.  Horror stories are helpful too.

Mark
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hillsbororiver

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Coming Out of Bablon the Right Way
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2006, 05:30:15 PM »

Hi Mark, it is a frustrating experience to be sure but be comforted in the fact you are not alone and Ray addresses this situation you are in frequently. My own personal advice is to print out or e-mail articles from Ray and Mike, these papers are filled with scripture that will be difficult if not impossible to refute. My own experience with doing this is that all you will receive in return is silence, I e-mailed pastors and friends alike as of yet no refutations mainly silence, but one friend (after 6 months) has come around a bit stating "there may be some merit here" so what I am saying is be patient and learn your time to witness is on the Lord's schedule not  yours but I sure can identify with your zeal to enlighten, the following is one of Ray's responses to someone in a similar situation as you. (The original letter and Ray's comments are between the brackets below)

Joe

[Dear Ray, i really need some help refuting some false teachings of my
church.

I was having a debate with my Youth group teachers of my "Greek orthodox Church" and i asked him "Why did our pastor say that the apostles are in heaven praying for us, rooting us on?"

He told me, well we believe that the apostles souls are praying for us
always, in heaven or something along that line. I asked him WHY? He told me, "Remember the passage in Hebrews where paul speaks of the witnesses on the clounds?" I told him i didn't and he told me well that is as we understand it the Apostles in heaven praying for us, or something like that. I told him but Didn't God say, "Adam became a LIVING SOUL?" and he told me, yes , and i said so when he is DEAD isn't he a DEAD SOUL? and he told me, where does it say in the bible when he died he was a dead soul? He said, the soul is "Immortal". I know you don't believe that, and NEITHER DO I! What lies, but with my limited understanding of the trueth, and pretty much a babe in Christ, i am in no position to refute such false doctrines. I was pretty much defensless, i told him however that i knew that was wrong and i would get him the answer, and he said, Show me scripture where the SOUL IS NOT IMMORTAL, and that When we die, the soul is in the grave still, dead.

My question ray, if you could would mean so much to me, is help me refute:

1. THe passage of PAUL is not saying the Apostles are in heaven (The passage in Hebrews i don't know where it is but im sure you know what im talking about)
2. THE SOUL IS NOT IMMORTAL
3. When we die, we are in the Grave, NO ONE is ascended to heaven, and the APOSTLES are not "In heaven PRAYING for us, "Rooting" us on."

If you could help me with this Ray i would truely appreciate it. I know you
have so many things to answer so God willing He allows you to answer this with words of Wisdom and truth. I truely want my teacher to see the WHOLE TRUTH and not just half of it. I know the BLIND cannot SEE, but im hopnig this is GODS WAY of opening HIS EYES.

God Bless,

Your brother in Christ Alex.


Dear Alex:

I have been warning people for years, that just because you learn a few Bible Truths, does not equip you to take on your pastor. THEY WILL EAT YOU FOR LUNCH! As you yourself are finding out.

I have spent thousands and thousands of hours researching, meditating, prayer over, and writing the material on our site. I simply cannot take an equal amount of time to explain all that to each of thousands and thousands of people, one at a time, in emails. Hope you understand.

I my lastest post: HELL, Part C, I spend pages on the false doctrine of the "immortal" soul. I proved that the soul is mortal from the Greek and Hebrew and from the Scriptures. But you didn't take the time to read it. Had you eagerly antiscipated this Installment as many others had, you would have had the knowledged that you lacked when you foolishly tried to put down your pastor. Learn from your mistakes and move one.

I Cor. 12:30--"NOT ALL are teachers..." (Concordant Literal N.T.).

God be with you,

Ray]
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Satch

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leaving
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2006, 06:16:51 PM »

I don't know if this would be helpful to your own situation but perhaps when you receive calls from former church friends you might just tell them that you are fine, not angry with anyone but are taking this time to sort out some questions and beliefs you have. If they offer to send your pastor maybe you could say that it really isn't necessary this is something you have to do on your own. That way you won't be blasted into a heated debate but will give you and your family time to keep learning and investigatin. Hope it helps and best wishes to and yours, Satch
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djbeeler

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Wait for him to ask!
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2006, 06:33:12 PM »

Hi Mark!

Mike and Ray will both, whole-heartedly tell you, wait for them to ask.

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

Maybe this is already happening, thus the reason for your post. If you are supposed to respond, God will give you the words to say and/or write.

Luke 12:11-12 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and [unto] magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.

God bless you in your journey!
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rvhill

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Coming Out of Bablon the Right Way
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2006, 06:34:00 PM »

baby steps.

Pick just one issue, and learn your basis in the issue. Read rays articles on things can help. Also do not attack them. Keep your talk simple, don't try to go any deeper then the person you are talking with. Start with your foundations Jesus is the way and only way. Stay away from  what you do not know. I would try to stay away from the pastor. Ray is right they are armed, unless you are equally armed. In the end when all is said, and done you might just have to agree to disagree. I would just start out by saying you do not believe in eternal hell, and all will be saved. In time all will been knee to God.

I would start by asking is there a difference between God desiring something and willing something. If they say yes ask them if they believe that God is all powerful and with out limits.  

1 Timothy 2:3for this is good and acceptable before our Saviour God,

   4who desires that all men should be saved and come to [the] knowledge of [the] truth.

   5For God is one, and [the] mediator of God and men one, [the] man Christ Jesus,

   6who gave himself a ransom for all, the testimony [to be rendered] in its own times;

I find the most common argument against universal salvation is if there is no hell then I have a License to Sin argument.  I try to answer this argument with just 3 simple statements:
1.we come to Jesus as little children, and Jesus is our mentor. All children try to be as like their mentor as possible.
2. God the father is the only source of agape(love), and no one is good but The Father. The closer our faith bring us to Father God the more agape we have.
3.I have never said there is not a price to pay for not living a Godly life.

Remember the kiss Principle is your friend. So keep it simple stupid. If they ask you a question you do not know, or are sure on, simple say you do not know yet.  Also doubt is a powerful weapon. If you doubt what they are saying simple tell you you doubt what they are saying.
.
1 John 4:14And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
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rvhill

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Coming Out of Bablon the Right Way
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2006, 06:40:37 PM »

stay away from talk of the after life , like death, heaven or hell unless you feel you know what your are talking about.  I would also not to be afraid to use

John 3:9Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

   10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

   11Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

   12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

   13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


Say you are still learning earthly things, and am not yet ready to talk of heavenly things.
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shibboleth

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Coming Out of Bablon the Right Way
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2006, 08:25:10 PM »

It's hard to give a pat answer to your question, because each situation would require a different answer. I have copied articles and given them to people who are searching for truth.
The church I left wasn't very close so noone, except the pastor, called me. I sent him some literature and all he did was deny it.
I have run into people I knew from a church I attended years ago, and just mention UR and tell them about Rays site. It is a good feeling to tell others about this truth, but very few people will respond, that's been my perception so far.
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mcmiller

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Coming Out of Bablon the Right Way
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2006, 01:06:30 AM »

Thanks for the input, I appreciate it very much.  Isn't it interesting how a person can be a part of "The Church" that is supposedly teaching the truth from God for 55 years, come to the point of leaving for the sake of the real truth and then not feeling prepared to talk about it? I mean, you would think that at least something was true, but like Paul said it is all dung.  
For me, I think the best advice so far, given my personality, is to do the best to answer the specific questions if they come.  In reality, I think it is only necessary to give one reason for leaving, it is not wise to try an shotgun people with a hundred reasons.  I like the approach of focussing on salvation for all (at the proper time) and leave it at that.  If that is not enough, I do feel comfortable dealing with the "Free Will" issue.

Thanks again for responding.  Critique on the above is welcome as well as additional inputs.

Your brother and sister,

Mark and Candy
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ertsky

  • Guest
Coming Out of Bablon the Right Way
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2006, 02:47:09 AM »

it's a fascinating topic

i got offered the left foot of fellowship years ago, before i knew anything much at all (not that i know much now LOL)

i knew the fellowship i was part of was way off, lots of dead letter preaching, tithing, tithing and more tithing etc etc, so even though i didn't know "eternal hell" was a false doctrine God had shown me something was way WAY off. as time went by i was invited to leave. i still remember the morning i was cast out LOL! it was surreal! God was with me! He always has been very real and close to me in moments of rejection, there is something very dear to Christ, very precious to God, in suffering for His sake

Joh 1:11  He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

He understands it so very well

Phi 1:29  For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

however!

Rom 8:17  And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Rom 8:18  For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

but these days i'm more inclined to silence until it becomes impossible but to speak.

a friend asked me why i wouldn't go to church with him and i replied, because you teach there that God will torture people in hell forever and ever! He was embarrassed and mumbled something about "not really believing that" though it was obvious he knew the doctrine i referred to.

He then said quite boldly "well if we believe in jesus were saved RIGHT?"
(as if to say doctrine doesn't matter)

i sadly nodded, the beast in him was evident, at that time i was ill equipped to take him to task, though perhaps later God might use me to speak further with him.

i've really felt the need to be quiet and learn, learn and relearn, i think when God is ready he will use me if He wants to.

i said to another brother that God chastises us and scourges every son that He recieves and his eventual response was "you are decieved" LOL!

he ran 100 miles an hour away from the suggestion that suffering was part of identifying with Christ!

it seems the offence of the cross has not ceased ! and no surprise

Gal 5:11  And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.

Heb 13:8  Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

anyways i am trying not to say anything lately unless i feel inspired or lead in love, to say it, if i hear Him, i try to get it out, otherwise i am content today at least, to just listen, to eat pineapple, read a short story, realise how totally unable i am to do anything, and marvel at how easily i am lead astray, and how wonderfully He restores me, at how little i know Him and His word, God i hope before i leave this three score and ten life that i get a whole lot more like Him than i am now.

1Th 5:24  Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
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Mickyd

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Coming Out of Bablon the Right Way
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2006, 11:02:25 AM »

I have found that trying to tell the truth to Christians is allot like turning on a 10,000 watt flood light directly in their eyes. They will duck, cover and scream at you to turn it off! :shock:

Don't try to force the issue. If you do try an explain your beliefs to them...make it short and sweet with a few scriptures, then walk away. After a few days....some of it may sink in.

In the end....it is God that must lead them into the light.
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Satch

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the right way
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2006, 12:48:48 PM »

I am curious about something and will preface this with a request to please forgive my ignorance in asking. I have read about people being "kicked out" or "given the feft foot" but I don't understand what happens. How does this take place? Also, are we not supposed to love our brothers and sisters in Christ? I don't think Jesus would toss someone out of His love. Any help in gaining understanding will be appreciated.
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Steve Crook

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Re: the right way
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2006, 01:10:04 PM »

Quote from: Satch
I am curious about something and will preface this with a request to please forgive my ignorance in asking. I have read about people being "kicked out" or "given the feft foot" but I don't understand what happens. How does this take place? Also, are we not supposed to love our brothers and sisters in Christ? I don't think Jesus would toss someone out of His love. Any help in gaining understanding will be appreciated.


When a person spreads the Truth of Christ to the church, they will kick you out of their synagogues and believe they are doing God's work. There comes a point where the pastor or friends in the church will wonder what is going on. IF you are honest and point to the truths that ARE NOT IN THE CHURCH, then you will be aske to leave...can't be influencing other "babes" now can we?

Fact is, as has been said before, there is NOT ONE SCRIPTURAL doctrine that the church holds that is TRUE. NOT ONE. The whole stay of staff and water has been taken away.

(Isa 3:1)  For, behold, the Lord, the LORD of hosts, doth take away from Jerusalem and from Judah the stay and the staff, the whole stay of bread, and the whole stay of water

Most folks can not handle that truth.....because fire burns. If they do not hear US, they are not of US.

(1Jo 4:5)  They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

(1Jo 4:6)  We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

There is only one mind in Christ and of Christ. There are not thousands of denominational "minds" in Christ. Only one. So, which denomination out there has that mind of Christ?

(1Co 1:10)  Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
(1Co 1:11)  For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
(1Co 1:12)  Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
(1Co 1:13)  Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

The answer is NONE. Christ is not divided.....

Point that simple truth out to any Christian out there an they'll give you a 10 minute explanation of why we can be "the same but different". "Unity in the essentials, tolerance in the non-essentials"

Who are the many that believe this versus the few who don't? There is only one mind and doctrine of Christ.

(2Jo 1:9)  Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth (same word for continues) in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
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faith2faith

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Re: Coming Out of Bablon the Right Way
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2008, 08:41:14 AM »

its no good trying to learn a little bit of knowledge from rays site and then think that your bullet prove and UN touchable
best thing to do is stay in Gods word, find some Guide lines to study and spend time in prayer, when you go out to battle
metaphorically specking, you don't go out half dressed in your armor, example..only dressed in your helmet of salvation
and wearing your belt of truth and sandals for readiness for peace.. and leaving your sword of the word at home, my advice
is stay in the word, stay in prayer, and stay in Gods love.

Jesus lead an example to follow, read from the first calling of his first disciple and how he taught them and trained them and
equip them and then sent them out, but remember he spent a lot of time training them and teaching them before sending them.

All I'm saying is,  if you try to confront your pastors with some knowledge of the truth, you will walk away with egg on your face
God knows when its time to send you, and you will know too! 
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