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Coming Out of Bablon the Right Way

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mcmiller:
Hello All,
My wife and I are in the process of separating ourselves from the church.  We have formally resigned from our positions as ushers and usher scheduler and have not attended a church service in six weeks.  What is happening now is that many of the people we called friends there are wondering what is going on.  We have received voice mails in this regard.  Being new to the truth (3 months) we are uneasy about getting into a doctrinal discussion with them, or even worse the pastor.  We are not afraid of them, but don't want to witness for the truth in an unproductive way.

What is the right way to come out of Babylon?  Mike alludes to this in his study on What is a Disciple, but really doesn't privide much guidance. Since everyone has to go through this, we were wondering if anyone has insight into better or worse ways to go about this.  Horror stories are helpful too.

Mark

hillsbororiver:
Hi Mark, it is a frustrating experience to be sure but be comforted in the fact you are not alone and Ray addresses this situation you are in frequently. My own personal advice is to print out or e-mail articles from Ray and Mike, these papers are filled with scripture that will be difficult if not impossible to refute. My own experience with doing this is that all you will receive in return is silence, I e-mailed pastors and friends alike as of yet no refutations mainly silence, but one friend (after 6 months) has come around a bit stating "there may be some merit here" so what I am saying is be patient and learn your time to witness is on the Lord's schedule not  yours but I sure can identify with your zeal to enlighten, the following is one of Ray's responses to someone in a similar situation as you. (The original letter and Ray's comments are between the brackets below)

Joe

[Dear Ray, i really need some help refuting some false teachings of my
church.

I was having a debate with my Youth group teachers of my "Greek orthodox Church" and i asked him "Why did our pastor say that the apostles are in heaven praying for us, rooting us on?"

He told me, well we believe that the apostles souls are praying for us
always, in heaven or something along that line. I asked him WHY? He told me, "Remember the passage in Hebrews where paul speaks of the witnesses on the clounds?" I told him i didn't and he told me well that is as we understand it the Apostles in heaven praying for us, or something like that. I told him but Didn't God say, "Adam became a LIVING SOUL?" and he told me, yes , and i said so when he is DEAD isn't he a DEAD SOUL? and he told me, where does it say in the bible when he died he was a dead soul? He said, the soul is "Immortal". I know you don't believe that, and NEITHER DO I! What lies, but with my limited understanding of the trueth, and pretty much a babe in Christ, i am in no position to refute such false doctrines. I was pretty much defensless, i told him however that i knew that was wrong and i would get him the answer, and he said, Show me scripture where the SOUL IS NOT IMMORTAL, and that When we die, the soul is in the grave still, dead.

My question ray, if you could would mean so much to me, is help me refute:

1. THe passage of PAUL is not saying the Apostles are in heaven (The passage in Hebrews i don't know where it is but im sure you know what im talking about)
2. THE SOUL IS NOT IMMORTAL
3. When we die, we are in the Grave, NO ONE is ascended to heaven, and the APOSTLES are not "In heaven PRAYING for us, "Rooting" us on."

If you could help me with this Ray i would truely appreciate it. I know you
have so many things to answer so God willing He allows you to answer this with words of Wisdom and truth. I truely want my teacher to see the WHOLE TRUTH and not just half of it. I know the BLIND cannot SEE, but im hopnig this is GODS WAY of opening HIS EYES.

God Bless,

Your brother in Christ Alex.


Dear Alex:

I have been warning people for years, that just because you learn a few Bible Truths, does not equip you to take on your pastor. THEY WILL EAT YOU FOR LUNCH! As you yourself are finding out.

I have spent thousands and thousands of hours researching, meditating, prayer over, and writing the material on our site. I simply cannot take an equal amount of time to explain all that to each of thousands and thousands of people, one at a time, in emails. Hope you understand.

I my lastest post: HELL, Part C, I spend pages on the false doctrine of the "immortal" soul. I proved that the soul is mortal from the Greek and Hebrew and from the Scriptures. But you didn't take the time to read it. Had you eagerly antiscipated this Installment as many others had, you would have had the knowledged that you lacked when you foolishly tried to put down your pastor. Learn from your mistakes and move one.

I Cor. 12:30--"NOT ALL are teachers..." (Concordant Literal N.T.).

God be with you,

Ray]

Satch:
I don't know if this would be helpful to your own situation but perhaps when you receive calls from former church friends you might just tell them that you are fine, not angry with anyone but are taking this time to sort out some questions and beliefs you have. If they offer to send your pastor maybe you could say that it really isn't necessary this is something you have to do on your own. That way you won't be blasted into a heated debate but will give you and your family time to keep learning and investigatin. Hope it helps and best wishes to and yours, Satch

djbeeler:
Hi Mark!

Mike and Ray will both, whole-heartedly tell you, wait for them to ask.

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

Maybe this is already happening, thus the reason for your post. If you are supposed to respond, God will give you the words to say and/or write.

Luke 12:11-12 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and [unto] magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.

God bless you in your journey!

rvhill:
baby steps.

Pick just one issue, and learn your basis in the issue. Read rays articles on things can help. Also do not attack them. Keep your talk simple, don't try to go any deeper then the person you are talking with. Start with your foundations Jesus is the way and only way. Stay away from  what you do not know. I would try to stay away from the pastor. Ray is right they are armed, unless you are equally armed. In the end when all is said, and done you might just have to agree to disagree. I would just start out by saying you do not believe in eternal hell, and all will be saved. In time all will been knee to God.

I would start by asking is there a difference between God desiring something and willing something. If they say yes ask them if they believe that God is all powerful and with out limits.  

1 Timothy 2:3for this is good and acceptable before our Saviour God,

   4who desires that all men should be saved and come to [the] knowledge of [the] truth.

   5For God is one, and [the] mediator of God and men one, [the] man Christ Jesus,

   6who gave himself a ransom for all, the testimony [to be rendered] in its own times;

I find the most common argument against universal salvation is if there is no hell then I have a License to Sin argument.  I try to answer this argument with just 3 simple statements:
1.we come to Jesus as little children, and Jesus is our mentor. All children try to be as like their mentor as possible.
2. God the father is the only source of agape(love), and no one is good but The Father. The closer our faith bring us to Father God the more agape we have.
3.I have never said there is not a price to pay for not living a Godly life.

Remember the kiss Principle is your friend. So keep it simple stupid. If they ask you a question you do not know, or are sure on, simple say you do not know yet.  Also doubt is a powerful weapon. If you doubt what they are saying simple tell you you doubt what they are saying.
.
1 John 4:14And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

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