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Author Topic: ĎFREE WILLí IS AN OXYMORON . . . . . . Biblestudy Jan. 2007  (Read 7850 times)

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Kat

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ĎFREE WILLí IS AN OXYMORON . . . . . . Biblestudy Jan. 2007
« on: August 05, 2007, 01:36:10 AM »

Transcript of Jan.í07 Bible study - audio 1


    ĎFREE WILLí IS AN OXYMORON
[Free-will is a self-contradicting term]


What are the two biggest errors in Christian theology, knowing every thing you know? Now this is my opinion, you may come up with different things, thatĎs fine. But Iím going to give you what I think are the two biggest errors where they go wrong. Because to me all the major problems with Christian theology fall under these two major errors of their teaching.

1)  The sovereignty of God: They do not understand or believe in the sovereignty of God. If they did, you would automatically throw free will to the wind. But God could be sovereign and still torture people in hell for all eternity. It just means there is no greater power than God. Nobody can thwart, intervene, change, mutilate, screw up Godís plan! Heís totally sovereign! But still if He wanted to, He could torture people for all eternity in hell. So there is a second area.

2)  Judgment is not eternal: I worded it specifically that way, for a purpose. I didnít say there is no eternal hell. I said JUDGMENT is not eternal, or we could turn it around and say judgment is temporary.

Those two doctrines. Those are the two major problems with Christendom. They do not believe that God is totally and completely in charge of everything. And number 2, they diminish Godís love and everything else, by suggesting that judgment is eternal. That God would judge and punish and torture people for all eternity, itís obscene.
 
So Iím going to deal with one of those today and that is the sovereignty of God. But Iím not going to deal so much with the sovereignty of God, as with the spin off. That is man has a free will. Which of course destroys the sovereignty of God. How do theologians know (and if you will ask, they will tell you vehemently) we have a free will? How do they know that? 

Iíve got this little quote, and Iíve been all over the web site with this. Iíve said already and Iíve already talked about what scientists know, but I never had any actual quotations. Now I have quotations from scientists. 

I have something from ĎThe Berean Call.í You know what Berean means, people like to use that word Berean, there are many ministries that have Berean in their name, becauseÖ ďwe searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things to be so or not.Ē (Acts17:11).

The only problem is, they come up with every unscriptural heresy you could imagine. But from ĎThe Bereans call,í we have this; ďThus God would be the author of evil (this is in suggestion, that if we didnít have free will, then this would be the case) and we have the contradiction of God telling them (in the garden, Adam and Eve) not to eat of the tree, causing them to do so, then punishing them for disobeying Him, a thought repugnant to human conscience and logic.Ē

Well there it is. How do we ever know we have a free will? Because if we didnít, then what God does is repugnant. What did they just admit? They just admitted, without knowing it, that they think that God, His plan, His Word, His truths are repugnant.

Rom 8:7  because the carnal mind (thatís the natural mind, but do not think that it says the evil mind or the despotic mind or the perverted mind, but carnal and carnal means natural fleshly mind of man) is enmity (which mean deep seated hatred- hates God) against God, for it is not subject to the (spiritual) Law of God, neither indeed can it be(made subject):Ē 

The only way (if you have a carnal mind) that you could become obedient to the spiritual law of God is, itís got to go. Itís got to go, because naturally of itself it hates God, it hates His law and itís not subject to it, and canít be, itís not even possible. Does anybody in Christendom really believe that scripture? Of course not. They will tell you they do, but if you break it down, they donít believe in it at all. Not at all, do they believe that and we will get into this, as we go through it.

First of all I want us to understand the reason Iím giving this study. I want you to be able, on your own, to defend what you believe in a very sound and reasonable way. Not just say, ĎWell Ray had some articles on that and I think heís right, go read them.í Because that is the case with a lot of things, you agree with almost all or maybe everything, but you couldnít repeat it back, nor could you write it, nor could you persuade anyone of it.
Thatís the truth with many people, they try it and fall right on their face. Itís one thing to say I believe that and agree with it, itís another thing when you confront somebody with it. Now Iím not saying we all have to be teachers or experts on hermeneutics, Iím not saying that at all. 

Now what we have to understand is what people call free will or what they dismiss as free will or what they feel confident constitutes free will, is not free will at all. I mean I have people email me and they say, ĎRay excuse me, we make our own choices, what do you mean we donít have free willí? I say you didnít read my papers at all did you. 

I wave the banner for making choices, more than anybody. I say not only do we make choices, we make millions of choices. The average human being makes, at least, a couple of thousand specific choices every day, whether you know it are not. Thousands every day. Iím all for choices. The carnal mind that hates God, that is not subject to His law, is perfectly capable of making choices. But that is not what free will is.
 
The more you break it down, you find out thatís not exactly what they mean. Itís their excuse, to make you think that you have free will. But in the final analysis, thatís not really what it is. Itís smoke and mirrors, magic tricks. You have to understand theology is a magician. Itís a fake, doing magic tricks with smoke and mirrors, and I donít understand that. Some of those magicians may even be a little sincere. I think the older they get, the wiser they get, the more they know, the less sincere they are.

Now is free will, making a choice? Letís look at the definition of choose. Choose - To select from a number of possible alternatives (The American Heritage college Dictionary). 

Thatís what choose is. Where do you see free will in that? Where is it free? You look at something, your brain says I can have this or thatÖ.how is that free? So you just select what you prefer, donít forget that. Weíll learn what that word Ďfreeí means, itís not free at all. So what is choice? You select what you prefer!
 
You look at a menu and you make a choice. Sometimes your waitress will say, Ďhave you made a choice yetí? You say, Ďyes I choose this, I was going to choose that, but Iíll choose this, well you know the more I think about it, I think Iíll choose that.í Your waitress will say, Ďyou know our briskets are very good today.í  ĎThen Iíll have that.í You are still just selecting what you prefer. Your brain says, ĎAh brisket, that sounds good and juicy, yea that.í Something makes you, make that choice, you see. But there is nothing in the definition, to select what you prefer. There is nothing to do with freedom in there, nothing what so ever, you just select. 

I have said in my paper and many times in conversation that computers make choices. Now I have had people send me emails and take exception from that. This week two people sent me an email in the same day, so this must be floating around out there.
 
There was an article that appeared in the NY Times about Free will. So some of the things Iíve got was from there. But hereís what Seth Lloyd says; ďIf by free will you mean the ability to choose, then a simple laptop computer has some kind of free will.Ē

There it is. Isnít that what Iíve been saying for years, computers make choices. Right there a scientist says, it has some kind of free will. Seth Lloyd is an expert on quantum computing and professor of mechanical engineering of the Mass. Institute of Technology. This guy is not a moron, heís somebody in the scientific field. He said if we mean by free willÖchoices, then laptop computers have that ability. 

But we are going to learn later on, that we are not only talking about free will, but youíve heard this expression Ďfree moral agency.í Thatís kind of lumped in with free will, are they one and the same thing? Well what they want you to believe is this, if you have free-will, you have what is in effect free moral agency. Meaning you have the ability to select between what is morally right and sinfully wrong. You have that power, and you will be held accountable accordingly. Weíre going to find out what a bunch of trash that is. 

Not only laptop computers, but animals make choices. Animals! My cats choose between eating something and not eating. I put something out and Stumpy will come up, smell it and heíll walk away. But Furby and Tabby will come up and theyíll smell it and itís like oh yummy and they eat it. One made a choice to eat it and one made a choice not to eat it. Theyíre animals, for crying out loud. Are you telling me that animals have free moral agency, theological free moral agency? Are you telling me that? Is there any theologian alive that would tell me that? Well then get off this kick, that free moral agency is the ability to make choices, thatís nonsense. Thereís Baby, she makes choices, Baby is our cat too. Cats make choices. Cats donít have free moral agency! I believe I said that in my paper. 

We all make choices, you select between which one you prefer. Weíre talking about not only choices, but Ďfreeí choices. So letís look at the word free. Free - not determined by A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G beyond its own nature or being. (Websterís Collegiate)
 
There it is. Free, not determined by ANYTHING. Thatís true freedom, you see. Hereís another one, from the American Heritage College Dictionary. Free - not controlled by obligation or the will of another. Now do you have something in you, that is not controlled by anything, except you? No one else or nothing else, only you control that? Do you have such a thing? Thatís the question. Cause if you do, you are a god for sure. But we are going to find out you donít have such a thing. Thatís not how the human psyche works, the human mind, or the human brain. It just does not work that way. 

So we had Ďchooseí and then we looked at Ďfreeí now letís look at the word Ďwill.í  Will - the mental faculty [mental faculty - an inherent power or ability, any of the powers or capabilities possessed by the human mind, the ability to perform or act] by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action. (American Heritage)

We are back to choice again arenít we. ĎWillí is your choice or your decision of what you want to be or do or think or go or say. Itís your will, right? But remember free is not subject to anything or anybody. 

Now letís look at the phrase Ďfree will,í because we have that in the dictionary too. Youíve got free and will and choice, but we have the phrase Ďfree willí and itís right on. Sometimes dictionaries are not right on, but in this case all dictionaries I looked in are right on. Free will - 1. the ability or discretion to choose; free choice. (American Heritage College Dictionary)

Not just to choose, it must be free choice. What did we say the definition of free was. Free - not determined by anything, okay. What is free will? The ability to choose, thatís not enforced upon you by anything, itís just you.  Just you have this. 

The second definition of free will - 2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or even divine will. (American Heritage College Dictionary) Not even God. Thatís free will, that is the definition. Now will theologians stick by that definition, as I take you through the scripture? Absolutely not! 

What do they keep coming back to? CHOICE, it's choice. But itís NOT choice! Choice is not something that is free, it is what you prefer. 

People, they just jump all around and they try to cut you off. I mean Iíve dealt with people for a long time, and I know how the carnal mind works. Like I say, you canít corner a snake in a briar patch, you can not. I donít care how good or how clever you think you are, you can not corner a snake in a briar patch! 

But lots of people write me and say, Ďyou know I tried to corner my pastor in a briar patch, over tithing. But then he brought up this, that and the other and I just donít know. So Ray I got a meeting with him on Wed. and youíve got to help me, what should I say?í I tell you there is more to this than meets the eye. 

Free will - the ability or discretion to choose;  free choice - the power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or any agency, such as fate (I mean they even throw in fate - for crying out loud) or God Himself. That is free will in the American Heritage Dictionary.

Now letís look at this; free will - freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention (Webster). Now thatís pretty strong language. Do you or any human being that ever lived, have such a power!? Well the whole human race says, yes. Not only Christians, but Muslims and atheists also think and say and parrot that they do indeed have that power, to make uncaused choices.

Now, so hereís what free will is - freedom from constraint, freedom from external circumstances, freedom from fate, freedom from divine will, freedom from divine intervention, freedom from prior causes. So free will is something, but no one can explain how it is or how it works. But it is something that you have, that you can make choices and decisions, that have Ďnoí cause. Well then, why did you make it? Well they donít know, theyíll say I decided to. Is the ĎI decidedí the free will or is that me or some other enmity now? How many enmities are at work here? 

The title of my paper is ĎFree Will is an Oxymoron.í Do you know what an oxymoron is? An oxymoron is like ĎMideast stabilityí or Ďmilitary intelligence.í It a contradictory term, itís like hot ice, like square circles, those are oxymorons, they are contradictions. The very term itself is a self contradiction, Ďfreeí will is a total self contradiction, itís an oxymoron. 

So I put all of these - no constraint, no external circumstances, no divine will in exact words. Free will is an effect that has no cause. That in the final analysis is as simple as you can say it. Free will is something that happens or comes about, that had no cause. Just something that you determined, through the agency of free will, this nebulous mysterious thing. 

I got an email and he sent me about 3 or 4 and finally I said this conversation is over. The writer said this, and I quote ďIt is obvious you are conscience that your choices are free.Ē Well itís obvious to him, not to me.  I donít have that conscience, that my choices are free without a cause. He said, ďThat your choices are free, although in theory you deny it. There are some things that we know about God and His Word from general revelation(reason), apart from specific revelation (scripture).Ē 

In other words, what he is saying is there are some things we just know to be true, but we have no proof to substantiate, whatsoever. Now that is what heís saying. I wrote him back and said, you know by the same Ďreasoní for many many centuries theologians and intelligent men, thought that the world was flat, right. Well whatís that? 

I got this from an article, the caption was ĎCausation.í Listen this is profound stuff, someday Iím going to incorporate some of this into my paper I think. Causation - ďEvery Cause has an Effect;  every Effect has its Cause; everything happens according to law; Chance is but a name for law not recognized; there are many planes of causation, but nothing escapes the law.Ē This is a scientific writing.

ďThe Principle of Cause and Effect-embodies the truth that law pervades the universe;  that nothing happens by Chance.Ē All true and a lot of scientists have come to that conclusion. Not the least of which was Albert Einstein. ďChance is merely a term, indicating that a cause existed, but not recognized or perceived. That phenomenon is continuous and without break or exception.Ē 

In other words, since the first scientist propagated the idea that the first edict of the universe is for every effect, there had to be a cause. All scientist combined have never found an exception to that rule! Do you hear what I am saying? Never has anyone found an exception to that rule, EXCEPT Christian theologians. 

« Last Edit: August 11, 2015, 01:29:57 PM by Kat »
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Kat

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Re: ĎFREE WILLí IS AN OXYMORON
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2007, 01:36:45 AM »

                                                                           audio 1/page 2

I ask my wife (she is a philosophy major, at University of South Alabama) so I ask her about this thing of free will. I ask what do the experts say, not people who have these fuzzy Christian doctrines in their heads, but people who work with reality. She said something to the effect that they all understand that for everything that happens or is, had a cause. Therefore whether they are dealing with psychosis or mental health, it didnít just happen without a cause, something is behind it.

It is either a rateial phenomenon or chemical imbalance or something. These things just donít float out of the sky, they actually are caused by something. It doesnít matter, if you donít know what causes a thunder storm, the truth of the matter is something does. I mean everything should be axiomatic, but they are not.

From: the Nazarene.com (In italics)

The Principle of Cause and Effect underlies all scientific thought, ancient and modern, and was enunciated by the Essenic Teachers in the earliest days. While many and varied disputes between the many schools of thought have since arisen, these disputes have been principally upon the details of the operations of the Principle, and still more often upon the meaning of certain words. The underlying Principle of Cause and Effect has been accepted as correct by practically all the thinkers of the world worthy of the name. To think otherwise would be to take the phenomena of the universe from the domain of law and Order, and to relegate it; to the control of the imaginary something which men have called ďchance.Ē  

Comment: This is a pretty profound statement right there. What scientist or who do you suppose discovered or propagated this law of Ďcause and effect?í What kind of knowledge and information would it take? What kind of scientific instrumentality would it require, to nail down this principle? Any ideas? A mathematician maybe? How long do you think they knew about this? Who do you think the first person was that came along and said, Ďdo you know that everything in the universe that we see happen, had a cause.í? How long ago do you think that might have been?
 
About 425 BCE, Greek philosopher Socrates propounded the foundational of western philosophy and western thought. Socrates stated that we live in a world governed by law, whether we understand the principles behind it or not. It was later known as the ĎSocratic Method of Argument.í It was from this premise that Socrates argued all his other philosophies. It was based on this one solid fundamental principle. Later it was known as the ĎSocratic Law of Causality,í today called ĎThe Law of Cause and Effect.í It is nearly 25 centuries old and it was one of the reasons that Socrates was put to death. Just like declaring the earth revolves around the sun, rather than the sun around the earth.  

Comment: I interject the thought here, suppose we do have free will. What good is it? Can you tell me something in your life that it has done for you thatĎs good? Itís worthless, itís worse than worthless, itís pinning your hopes on something that doesnít exist.

Here are more quotations from this paper.  

As a result, physicists, neuroscientists and computer scientists have joined the heirs of Plato and Aristotle in arguing about what free will is. Whether we have it and if not, why we ever thought we did in the first place.
 
Mark Hallett, (researcher with the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Strokes) said, ďIf Free will does exist, itís a perception, not a power or a driving force. People experience free will. They have the sense they are free.

  
Comment: Itís a feeling, nothing but a feeling.
  
The more you scrutinize it, the more you realize you donít have it.

In other words, he said we feel like we have it, we feel like we have this thing called free will. I mean you get up in the morning, you say Iíll have coffee and reach over an have that to eat. This is all free, see. Why is it free? Because we PERCEIVE it to be free. When you look at it carefully though, what does this scientist say, the more you look at it and scrutinize it, you realize you donít have it. It doesnít exist, itís a figment of your imagination, itís an allusion, itís an idol of the heart. Itís something you wish you had and you want to have and whether you do or you donít, youíre going to say you do. Thatís what it is, itís an allusion at best.  

That is hardly a new thought (the German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer said), as Einstein paraphrased it, that a human can very well DO what he wants, but cannot WILL what he wants.

Comment: Have I not said that through out my papers. Have I not said that if a man lusts after a little girl, he can figure out a way to corner her, steal her away, kidnap her, have sex with her and cut her head off. Can he do that? Can he not do what he DESIRES to do? Yes he can.  

This is so profound. This is coming from Arthur Schopenhauer;

That a human can very well Ďdoí what he wants, but cannot Ďwillí what he wants.

Iím telling you there is more truth in that statement than most theologians have ever gleamed from the Bible in there entire lives. You can choose what you desire, what you want, how can you do that? The human brain, the human mind has the ability. It is beyond any computer, it is so fabulous and marvelous, it is beyond comprehension. That it can gather information and data and analyze it and make decisions regarding it. It can do that, there is no doubt that it can do that. But that it can do that without a cause, is total hog wash and unscriptural heresy and demeans the very sovereignty of God. Itís tantamount to saying, I know we are here, I know we exist, but no God made us.
  
Everything has a cause. Your thoughts, your choices have a cause and the second you take away the cause, you donít have a choice. So the idea, that you have a freedom that has no cause to make choices, is insane, it is stupid.  

But you canít get anybody to think about this in specific terms. Iíve had people say, Ďoh thatís your definition of free will, Ray.í I know that dictionaries are not 100%, they say timeless means eternity, rather than not having time at all, which is what it means. But most of the time, when they say someone is homeless, pennyless, clueless, or hopeless they do get it right. Just when they come to theology, they screw it up.
  
But when you check all the definitions of words, as we did. We looked at Ďfree,í we looked at Ďwill,í we looked at Ďfree will,í and we looked at Ďchoice.í They all point to the same truth, they all point to the law of cause and effect. All of them do. All scientific research and discovery point to the same truth. There is no effect without a cause, there is no choice without a cause.  

But we read the definition, if it has a cause itís not free. Guess what? You donít have free choice then. If free means without a cause, then you can make choices, but you canít make Ďfreeí choices, because there is no such thing. If free will is something one controls, then by its very nature it is not free. It is a self-contradictory term, itís an oxymoron, itís like dark light, cold hot, or true lies, itís a square circle.

So what I said, it relates to Dr. Einsteinís thing that we can very well Ďdoí what we want, but we can not Ďwillí what we want. We can make choices, but we can not originate them. We do not originate the choices. Choices is what is presented to us. They just come in. The sunlight through the window, the air from the fan, the light from the fixture, you know. Youíre sitting in front of me getting my attention, all these things are here and they cause me to make choices. They cause me to look around the room, they cause me to jester, they CAUSE me to do all these things, you see. Nothing that Iím doing here is being done without a cause.  

ďThat strikes many people as incoherent," [said Dr. Silberstein, who noted,] "that every physical system that has been investigated has turned out to be either deterministic or random

I donít want to get into that, I did some research once for about 8 hours on randomness, it will drive you crazy. Letís just suffice that they find that in the universe, you either have determinism or randomness. But here is what he said, ďBoth are bad news for free will.Ē Either one of the two things that we find, or in other words when you get down to the level of quarks and things, they think there is such a thing as randomness - things that happen with no apparent systematic law governing it.

However I have this theory, that they are governed by the law of randomness. Okay, he said both of them are bad news for free will.

So if human actions cannot be caused and are not random, then it must be what, some kind of weird magical power?

This is a scientist talking here. Dr.Wegner (of Harvard) said;

I think that exposing free will as an illusion, would have little effect on peopleís lives or on their feelings of self-worth. Most of them would remain in denial.

Isnít that the truth, they just deny it and say, Ďoh well my pastor teaches this and your just a scientist and I donít believe you.í He (Wegner) said;

Itís an illusion, but itís a very persistent illusion; it keeps coming back. Comparing it to a magicianís trick that has been seen again and again. Even though you know itís a trick, you get fooled every time. The feeling just doesnít go away.  

Itís amazing, even when people are educated that this can not exist, like a magicianís trick, they still go out from this Bible study and think some how they do have free will anyway, because it APPEARS that way. I mean the magician really did pull a rabbit out of a hat, and you know itís a trick, he showed you how he did it. But when he does it, it still Ďappearsí like he did something magical and you believe it.  

Now here we get down to an ethical point, that I think is quite worthy. Dr. Wegner said;

We worry that explaining evil condones it. We have to maintain our outrage at Hitler.

Did you get that? He said, that if we explain the true cause of evil, people will think we condone it. We must maintain our outrage at Hitler.

How many emails have I gotten just like that. ĎOh your saying, so Hitler is going to be up in heaven with us?í ĎOh really, nice Ray, and I suppose Sadam Hussin will be having tea with us and taking the last supper with us.í You know they get real sarcastic like that. Why? Because they want to be better. They want to be better than Hitler, they want to be able to always think that Hitler made choices to do bad and heís going to suffer for all eternity for it. They say, ĎI on the other hand, I choose Christ and Iím going to be saved.í So people feel this way.  

I donít mince words any more. The reason Christians feel this way is they despise the Word of God. You may say, Ďwell thatís pretty strong, Ray. Maybe they just are deceived about it or confused.í No! Sooner or later people come to the point where they are confronted with the Word of God and they either accept it or reject it  That is a choice, we have that ability. But itís based on some cause, what we feel, what we know, what we see, what we hear. The mind can process data and make a choice. The Bible doesnít say you canít do that. Iíve never said you canít do that, and even my cats can do that.  
That is not free moral agency, however.  

Now in James he says if you break any one of the laws or commandments of God, youíre guilty of all.

James 2:10  For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

Now he didnít say if you steal, you killed somebody. He didnít say if you steal you kill, no, he didnít say that. He said if you break one your "guilty of all." How so? He said because you are a Ďlaw breaker.í  

There are laws, and if you break any one, you are a law breaker. Well what if you break that one, youíre a law breaker, well what if I break this one, youíre a law breaker. This is not rocket science. God has laws, when you break one, guess what you are? Youíre a law breaker! It doesnít matter if you break the first or the second or the forth, youíre a law breaker. Thatís what you are.  

Now, God says Heís no respecter of persons. So if somebody breaks a big law and somebody breaks a little law, if He can forgive the breaker of the little law, can He forgive the breaker of the big law? Well this is where it gets kind of fuzzy for some people. Because a lot of people donít think they have broke many of the laws.  

You know I have heard ministers tell the audience on international TV, the sins of their youth. I have never heard one yet say that he likes to suck another manís body parts, never. Never have I heard of someone saying that he use to lust after little children. Never have I heard that, never.  

Here is what I have heard maybe a dozen times, from the top leading evangelist in the world, here are their sins. ĎWell when I was young, you know 18 or 21, I was a little aggressive. You know I had a lot of vanity, about wanting to accomplish things.í So thatís it? That was your sin? ĎYea that was really vanity on my part.í Wow, thatís not really too much to repent of, is it. I mean thatís something you could tell the whole world about and not even be embarrassed. You see what I saying?

Iím not saying that every man has homosexual tendencies or every man slapped his mother at some time or every man lusted after a child. Iím not saying that! I just thank God there are certain sins that I just never was tempted to have or partake of. Iím so thankful for that.

But if you think that Iím so stupid, that I canít see that under the same circumstances, of whoever you want to take, say Manson, that I canít see and know and understand in my very heart and being, that if I was born in his family under those conditions and circumstances, I would have been Charles Manson. This is the thing that people will not come to grips with. Thatís why these people say, ĎOh yes I was a little aggressive.í
 
Thatís what Herbert Armstrong said, that was his sin. He said his sin was being too enthusiastic to succeed in life. Oh what a horrible sin that is. But he didnít tell us the problem that he had with his daughter, did he  No, that had to come out later, you see. Donít condemn Mr. Armstrong, for that even, other than it is a horrible sin. You and I under the same circumstances, would have done the same thing. Why canít we see that?

This is what should humble everyone of us. We are no better that anyone else! Except by the grace of God, that is the only reason!

Why donít we all have leukemia? The grace of God.  
Why arenít we all blind? The grace of God.  
Are there blind people? Yes. Why isnít it us? Grace of God, no other reason.  

God determined who we were, when we would be born, where, and under what circumstances. What sins we would commit, what sins we wouldnít commit, itís all predetermined of God. Why? Because God is sovereign, thatís why. He is in control of everything!  

But people despise the Word of God. I show people a scripture and they despise it. ďI create evilÖĒ ĎNo He doesnít, it means calamity.í There are words that mean calamity, there are words translated in the Hebrew that mean calamity, ĎRAí is not one of them. In Isaiah 45:7 itís ĎRAí the same word translated over 600 times Ďevilí thatís what He created.
 
Billy Graham at the National Cathedral on international television, a billion people watching... ďGod does not create evil.Ē Did he never read the Bible? Of course he did. Does he believe it? He despises the Word of God.

« Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 02:26:30 PM by Kat »
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Kat

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Re: ĎFREE WILLí IS AN OXYMORON
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2007, 08:34:37 PM »

       Audio 2/page 1

 ĎFREE WILLí IS AN OXYMORON

     TWO BIG OBJECTIONS:

[1]  If we donít have free will, then we are but robots! No! 

We are highly complex organisms, so far above any human created robot. We can analyze data and we can create, we have imaginations, we can plan, formulate, invent, we can do so much things that no machine could ever hope to do. We have emotions, what machine has emotions? I mean come on. 

But the point is, what if there are certain similarities. Man makes and creates a machineÖ God makes and creates the human. There is a similarity there, isnít it. We came out of the mind and creativity of God! We make a machine that comes out of the mind and creativity of man. Is there a similarity there? Yes. Is it a sin? Is it something to look down on? Is it something to condemn or demean? I donít think so.
 
But as Godís creation, as Godís invention, as Godís machine, we wear out grow old and die. Where is the free will in that? Free will yourself out of that one. Of course they would say, we have Ďlimitedí free will. 

Okay so the objective is, we are robots. Thatís not altogether bad or wrong to make that connection, as long as you understand that we are far far far superior to robots.

[2]  If it is not free will love, it is not love at all! If we donít have free will, then whatever goodness we have is caused by God and therefore, what? Letís take love. If we donít have free will love, therefore we must be caused to love by God, therefore our love is what? Not genuine? Worthless? That is the major condemnation, in the idea that we donít have free will.

Itís interesting, you can always look at things in a negative and positive ways, when you might even have the same results in mind. Somebody will say, Ďdo you think God forces us to love Him?í I say, well to some degree maybe, but why donít we use the word Ďinspire.í

This guy sent me an email and he said, ĎRay there is a difference between forcing and inspiring.í I said, oh really. Do they both cause something to happen? Well then they are both a Ďcauseí and whatever causes something to happen, makes it happen, so it happened. So itís really immaterial what it was that causes it to happen, if it was something else that brought it about, right?
 
So people have no idea how many times they contradict themselves in one sentence. They are trying to talk about some unscriptural thing and theyíll contradict themselves one or even two times in one sentence. So what they are saying is, if God inspires you to love, itís a good thing, if He causes you to love, itís not so good, and if He forces you to love, itís evil. 

Alright now letís look at a couple of these things. If love is not voluntary out of the person thatís giving the love, freely from his heart, with no external-internal causes or fate or intervention of God?  If it doesnít come that wayÖ.itĎs worthless? Oh really.

Have you ever seen well mannered obedient children? Of course you have. Have you ever seen children kicking and screaming, throwing themselves on the floor and just making an absolute mess out of themselves?  Of course you have. Which ones do you prefer to see? The good one, the well mannered and so on. Now imagine this; youíve been observing somebodyís, maybe 2 or 3, children for an hour, either at the playground, in the grocery store or whatever. 

You go up to the woman and say, Ďwow, your children are so well mannered. Iíve been watching them, they smile, they help each other out, they donít grab, theyíre respectful, they talk softly and kindly. These are remarkable children! How do you have children that are this well mannered, loving, smiling, friendly, obedient.  How do you account for children like this?í

The mother says - I trained them.
You say - The hell with that. You mean they are not this way naturally? What good are they? These snot nose kids, you mean you had to train them to be this way?
The mother - Yes.
You reply - Well then itís not even sincere. If it didnít come from their heart, this is not a free will action. Well how did you train them?
She says - Well I punished them when they were bad and rewarded them when they were good.
You - Oh no!  You punished them when they were bad? You rewarded them when they were good? Where did you come up with these archaic evil tactics?

This all sounds pretty silly doesnít it. Excuse me. This is the very argument of theologians with 3, 4 or 5 doctorate degrees. There is no difference. They say, if you had to be trained to be loving and kind, to be cheerful, thrifty, clean and reverent, then itís no good. Iíve had people tell me this and you can look it up in my emails and you can read their stupid comments regarding free will, if you want. They will tell you itís worthless, itís no good.  What good is love that was caused to be there. Itís no good if it didnít come from your facility of free will, it is no good. Youíre just a robot. Itís not of value, itís not from the heart.

My oh my people, can we not see the craziness of this stuff? I canít tell you how many emails Iíve sent back to people and said, excuse me, do you love your wife? What makes you love her? Now if you tell me that thereís nothing that your wife does, says or whatever, thereís NOTHING that she does that makes you love her. Then I want her name and address, because I want to tell her that. I want to tell your wife that you told me, that there is nothing about your wife, nothing at all, that makes you love her.

You see when I put thingís in different words, sometimes people look at it a little differently. If I ask somebody, why do you love your wife? Theyíll give me reasons, I say you mean all those things Ďmakeí you love her? They say, Ďoh they do make me love her.í Then I say, you donít love her freely? You have to be Ďcausedí to love her. So unless she does this to Ďcauseí you to love her or she cooks good meals for you and Ďcausesí you to love her, when she rubs your back and it Ďmakesí you love her. If it werenít for all that, you wouldnít love her? Then they say, Ďwell not so dearly, no.Ď And they say thatís not sincere love at all? Get out of here, you know sometimes I just want to slap these peoples faces spiritually. 

So we train our children to be good. Does that mean they are not good, because we had to train them and it didnít come from their own free will? Do we not see how stupid this is? Donít let anybody back you into a corner over this thing of free will. You use your brain and you use the scripture and you know that this is all nonsense.

Eph 2:3  Among whom also we all (how many? ALL - including the great apostle Paul) had our conversation (behavior-conduct) in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were BY NATURE the children of wrath, even as others.Ē

Excuse me, but what happened to everybody's free will in all this? By nature weíre ďthe children of wrath.Ē But supposedly only if love comes from this free will, which by natureÖ.is wrath. How is that good? If you love somebody through free will, that means you loved them for no reason at all. Isnít it better to love somebody for a reason? Isnít it better that we love God for reasons, that we have reasons for loving Him? Guess what those reasons are? They are CAUSES! But there isnít any causes in Ďfree,í so it does away with the free will concept completely and totally. 

Jer 13:23  Can the Ethiopian change his skin, (no) or the leopard its spots? (no)

Ask any theologian alive, just present it to him this way;

You say, God gave us free will, is that right, Pastor Jones?
Pastor answer - Thatís correct.
You say - This means that no matter how bad of circumstances I was born under, no matter what Iíve gone through, God has given me this free will?
Pastor says - Thatís right brother.
You say - So no matter how bad things are, if I wanted to, I have the ability within me to choose to do right?
Pastor says - Thatís right, Child of God.
You say - If I wanted to, I could decide to choose Christ as my Savior?
Pastor says - Amen brother, you could.
You say - I could decide to come to Christ with all my problems and so on, and be taken in by Him? I could make that decision right now, could I not?
Pastor - Amen, speak on child of God.
You say - If I had a life of sin and crime and corruption, right now I could decide, by my free will, I donít want to live this way any more, and Iím to start living the right way?
Pastor says - Amen child of God, thatís exactly what free will is, thatís exactly what you can do.
You say - You mean right now, on my own I can do it or does God have to make me do it?
Pastor says -- No child of God, you can do it, itís a marvelous gift that God has given you, itís called free will.  You can at any time, under any circumstances, on your own, by yourself, without any outside influence what so ever, you can decide that you are going to do right and be good and forsake evil. You can do that, my child yes you can.
You say - Well then I have a problem Pastor, in Jeremiah 13:23 it says, can the Ethiopian change his skin?
Pastor says - Well no he canít do that.
You say - Can the leopard its spots?
Pastor says - Well no a leopard canít change his spots.
You say - Well then can a person who is used to sinning do good?
Pastor - Well yes he can.
You say - Excuse me Pastor, you are talking off the top of your head.  Read it from the scripture.

Jere 13:23  Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil.

Oops, what happened to free will? Can a person without a cause, decide he is going to stop sinning and start living right? Can a person decide on his own, independent of God, through this marvelous piece of magic and smoke and mirrors called free will, decide that he is going to repent of his sins and live differently from this day forward?
 
As Billy Graham said, in that campaign of his, ĎDonít you people be praying for this person thatís making this decision for Christ. Heís got to make it on his own. Itís okay if you pray for him before, itís okay if you pray for him after, but right now donít pray for him. Heís got to make this decision on his own.í Blasphemous heresy if I ever heard, unbelievable nonsense. Before the meeting you can pray that this person would come here, so God made him come here, because you prayed. After the meeting heís going to go out and study his Bible, because you are praying that and God is going to make him study his Bible. But when it comes to the most important decision of his whole life, is he going to accept Christ as his Savior tonight, we donít want any help from God whatsoever!? You donít want help from God when youíre making the most important decisions of your life?  Thatís the one time you do not want help or inspiration from God? Can we all say heresy! 

Rom 2:4  Or despise you the riches of His goodnessÖ

What was the reason I said in my Tower article, why is He going to bring down the nation, like a tower coming down? Why? The verse before, you despise My Word; ďOr despise you the riches of His goodness and forbearance and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?Ē

Well we donít want that. Isnít that the thing Billy Graham said donít pray for. You donít want the goodness of God to cause this person to make a decision, he has to do it on his own. They despise the word of God, trust me they do. They will not acknowledge the fact that only God can bring somebody to repentance. Either that or you despise God. Read that a couple of times, thereís no other alternative. Either you believe that God brings to repentance or you despise God. There is no other alternative.

ďfor all have sinnedÖĒ (Rom 3:23), what does it mean ďall have sinnedĒ? Listen, if the whole human race has been given this wonderful thing called free will, you can choose at any time in your life. Apparently even as a toddler, you can decide okay there is another toddler after my toy, I think the proper thing to do is to share. So Iíll let him have my toy. Do you think toddlers can do that? Well youíve not watched many toddlers, they have to be taught to do that. But talk to any theologian, heíll tell you youíve been given free will from the day you were born. Yet we read ďall have sinned.Ē 

If humanity has free will and they can choose to do good. Why donít they? Whatís wrong? I have theologians say, and Iíll quote them, ďItís the most marvelous gift God has given to humanity is free will, itĎs the most marvelous gift of all.Ē If this gift is so wonderful, why doesnít it ever work? Why is it broken? Why does it malfunction 100% of the time? Why doesnít it work? 

You got free will, which means there is nothing that causes you to do evil, when you can just as easily do good, nothing. So why donít you? Why hasnít anyone? Where is the first human (save Jesus Christ) that ever lived that way? Why did Jesus do it, because He had free will? ďOf My own self I can do nothing.Ē (John 5:30)  Well what about when You talk? God causes Me to talk. Well what about these miracles? God caused them, He does them through Me. Do we believe that and teach that from the theological seminaries of the world? NO! Why? They despise the Word of God, despise it. All have sinned, it never works. Listen letís go back and see if it worked.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2015, 01:41:42 PM by Kat »
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Kat

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Re: ĎFREE WILLí IS AN OXYMORON
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2007, 08:35:26 PM »

                                                                             audio 2/page 2

Gen 2:15  And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
v. 16  And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat:
v. 17  But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, YOU SHALL NOT eat of it:  for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die.

Did Adam know that God said, you shouldnít eat this? He knew that! Does Adam have a free will? Ask any minister, of course he does, did Eve have a free will, absolutely they say. 

Gen 3:1  Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, You shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Gen 3:2  And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

So did she know what was right, because of what she was told? Yes, she just acknowledged that, did she not. Did she just acknowledge that she knew what they were supposed to do and what they were not suppose to do. Did she have that knowledge? YES! Does she have a will that is totally free and can not be influenced by any outside circumstances, cause, factor, divine or otherwise? Well theology would tell us yes she does have that.

Gen 3:3  But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. (She knew that)
v. 4  And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
v. 5  For God doth know that in the day you eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
v. 6  And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise she took of the fruit thereof, and did eatÖĒ

But she did that by her own free will, there was nothing that influenced her to do that? Are you Crazy! Are you reading a different Bible from me? Satan tricked her. Her will was no more free than my catís. 

v. 6   And when the woman saw that the tree was good for foodÖ she took of the fruit thereof and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.Ē

Now they say, Ďwell they were deceived.í No. No, because Paul told Timothy, Adam was not deceived, Eve was deceived, but Adam was not deceived. (1Tim. 2:14) So you canít even say, íwell he was deceived, that was the problem, he had free will, but he was deceived.í He was not deceived, the Bible says he was not deceived. So if he had a will, and it was free, he knew right from wrong, God told him, his wife knew it. Now he is confronted with his wife she wants him to eat and could he eat, knowing that God said ďDonít eat.Ē Does he have this freedom of will, to either do it or not do it? He DOES eat it. Every human being that has ever lived sins, and is also partaking of the tree. Everyone!

Yet they say, Ďwe have a will that is free to not take of the tree.í Excuse me, how can something be a blessing that never works? How can you praise somebody year after year for some present you got, say some mechanical device that never worked, from the day you unwrapped it. It has never worked and yet you say, Ďthis is the greatest gift I have ever gotten.í It doesnít even work. Am I going to fast for anybody? It doesnít work. Even if we had free will, we know for a historical, Biblical fact it doesnít work. It has never worked. What good is it? But we donít even have it. We donít have it, itís an oxymoron. YOU canít come to Christ. Even though they say, Ďyouíve got a free will.í The Bible says you canít come to Christ, you canĎt choose Him.  You canít seek God, no one seeks God.

Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God(spiritual laws of God), neither indeed can be.

Well you say, ĎI got a free will, I can be subject if I want.Ē NO YOU CANíT. Did Eve have a free will, that she could resist Satan? No. The first temptation and it was all over, down she went. Adam wasnít deceived and he choose the same way. 

But God forbid that He would teach us right from wrong, what an evil that is. Then they get into these strong words, like they say, Ďwell if God has to Ďforceí us to love Him, what good is that?í Well let me reword it, what if God has to Ďinspireí us to love Him, how marvelous is that. Itís one thing to be Ďforcedí to write a book you donít want to write. Itís another thing to be Ďinspiredí to write a book, you canít wait to write. Do you see a difference? Donít you see a little difference there? Notice what David said to God.

Psalms 119:71  It is GOOD for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn thy statutes.

Itís good. The Bible said itís good. Itís good! They say, Ďoh itís bad, if you donít obey Godís statues, by your own free will, itís useless. If God has to force you to love Him what kind of love is that?í But what if He inspires you? What if He has to punish sometimes to get your mind straightened out? As long as you get your mind straightened out, whatís wrong with that?

There is nothing wrong with that. Thatís how you get obedient children. Spare the rod and what do you do to the child? Spoil the child, right. But when you see obedient children you might have to recognize, that those children might have had to go through some things that you would say, oh thatís kind of bad. Itís alright, look at the results. 

Now I want to make a distinction. You hear about this term free will all the time. But in religious circles you hear about free moral agency. What they mean is, that free will is free moral agency. Itís not only the ability to make uncaused choices, but it is also the ability to choose the right choices. Not just to make a choice thatís not caused, but to make the right choice which is morally, ethically, spiritually right and correct, you see.
 
Hereís the thing, they think you have a kind of barometer that God put inside of you that has the ability to choose the good things of God. That will make, you know, brownie points for you, as opposed to doing bad things that will bring punishment and judgment upon you, okay. Thatís what we mean by free ímoralí agency. You are an agent of morality and you have the ability to choose proper and good morality without any cause whatsoever. Of course it is total nonsense. But I just wanted to show you what they mean by free moral agency.

Free will means more to them than just the ability to make uncaused choices. But to make the right morally correct choices. Now if this is so, then why do we need the Spirit of God? Why would we need the Spirit of God if we have this ability already? You see how it short changes God, short changes the Spirit, and it short changes what Heís doing for us and teaching us. All that Heís doing it makes it all useless and worthless, because they think you already possess all these abilities. Thatís why they call it free moral agency.

John 16:13  Howbeit when the Spirit of truth, is come, he(it) shall guide you into all the truth...

I changed the he to ĎitĎ, because the Spirit of God is not a he, itís an it. Now if we need the Spirit of God to guide you into all truth and by that we also have to include the truth about whatís good and bad, right and wrong, morally proper and whatís immoral, you see? If we have to have the Spirit of God to do it in us, to cause, see itís got to be a cause there. If this spirit of God comes in you, but doesnít do anything - remember we read that free will is the ability to formulate free causes without anything interfering or working in your behalf. Well now, if the Spirit of God comes in you and doesnít do ANYTHING, what good is it? What earthly or heavenly good is it? 

I mean letís think about that, what good is it? But then if we say the Holy Spirit inspires you to do whatís right, well wait a minute we just threw free will out the window. If you need the Spirit of God to cause you to see the right and choose the right, you just threw free moral agency out the window. You don't need something to do something, if you can do it without it. You donít need a jack, to jack up your car to change a flat tire, if you could change a flat tire without a jack. Did you get that? 

What is it that comes into our lives to lead us into truth and goodness? The Spirit of God! But if weíve got free moral agency, which they say gives you the ability - thatís why they gave it the stupid name Ďfree morality,í because it means you are the agent of uncaused goodness and morality. In other words, a man is basically good if he wants to be. 

Well why doesnít it ever work? Why is it that NO man seeks out God? All have sinned, why if weĎve got this thing? Listen, if you have free will, at least it ought to be a 50-50 proposition, right. You ought to have at least a 50% chance of doing right, as oppose to wrong, right. At least 50-50 would have to fair, right. No, itís so lopsided, itís 100-0. You have to be taught, you have to be shown or God has to intervene in your life in some way or you will not be a good person.

I put down Tim Hagar, not to pick on him, heís just a poor man that fell victim to his own temptations and lusts and so on. But I mention him, because he is part of a huge, one of these maga churches, okay. Then to add insult to injury, is he was in charge of this movement or whatever against homosexuality and all that. Behind the scenes heís taking the widows mites to buy homosexual whores! What!
 
Do you think this man never taught a class or gave a sermon about this thing of free will. Teaching that you have the ability to choose good any time you want to. The man turned right around, and I heard him say it and I read about it, that this thing has plagued him all the days of his life. He doesnít want to be a lying, deceiving, two-faced hypocrite, homosexual, stealing peoples money to fornicate with prostitutes. He didnít want to do that. But he couldnít not do it! Why couldnít he not do it, if he had fee will? Can we see the truth of this? Here is a man who wanted to not do those things and couldnít. Where is the freedom in that? This man is 100% victimized by his own carnal nature, his own carnal mind. The lust of his flesh, totally controlled him, there is no freedom in that man. 

You know what is so sad about it all? All these guys, you know James Dobson were going to come in and become his personal mentors and all. You know what is so disgusting about this whole thing, of all those people who came in and was taking over the church and counseled him and pat him on his pointed head. Do you know who it was that got the message about this whole thing? The only one who understands it, is the victim himself. Think about it, he knows he had no free choice to keep him from doing this. But all his pointed headed counselors who didnít commit this sin and were going to help him on to the straight and narrow, they believe that they do have free will. Itís unbelievable.

Rom 7:18  For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwells no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19  For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Paul said when I would do good, evil is there. Where is the free will? Why didnít Paul just free will himself out of all this stuff? He said what is going to save one from this destruction of my own carnal mind and ways, what? He said grace! I thank God through Jesus Christ that there is a power strong enough to do in me, what I canít free will myself to do. 

Why canít theologians see that? They despise the Word of God. What was Paulís ministry before Christ came into his life? DUNG. He summarized his whole ministry - dung. Is that good? Why is it if we have free will itís of no value until we come to Christ? 

Well of course the Calvinists teach thatís the way it is. They say you donít have free will until you come to Christ and then you have free will. Well here is the truth in one verse.

Phi 2:12  Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

People like to quote that and say, Ďyou got to do it yourself, itís your own free will.í No no no no no. The reason you do it with fear and trembling is the next verse.

Phi 2:13  For(because) it is God which works in you BOTH(2 things) to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Thatís God, not your free will! God does that! We throw out God and we take on ourselves this little demigod called free will. Therefore we despise the sovereignty of God. We despise the Word of God and you are not going to grow spiritually. You got to know who and what God is in relationship to who and what you are, or you will never grow spiritually. 

If you donít see that you could have been Hitler, just as easy as Hitler was Hitler, you donít understand who and what you are. You donít understand the scriptures, you donít understand the plan of God, you donít understand anything. God makes vessels of dishonor(Roms 9:21). But you say, ĎOh I thought Hitler had free willed himself into being that monster.í Circumstances, his own lust, there is no other way. There is no other way he could have turned out. 

If God is determined that you and I will obey Him from here on out, guess what? Thereís no other alternative.  We will do it! But the only thing is, He doesnít tell us for sure that we are one. Christ knows those that are His (John 10:14). We donít. Philippians 2:13, God will do it, He works in you to will and to do. But then verse 12, with fear and trembling. Why? We donít know for sure we are one. 

Paul said less I become a castaway (1 Cor 9: 27). But you say, íhow could Paul become a castaway?í He said it could happen. He said I donít take it for granted, it could happen you know, unless I be a castaway, so Iím going to endure to the END. 

Isnít that what Christ said, he who endures to the end (Matt 24:13), all the way to the end. The runner who stumbles and falls 2 feet before the finish line, does not win the race.

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