Parables - email to Ray

[bhodge10]

Hi everybody,

I just wanted to point something out and to see if anybody else has the following in their bibles (regardless of version). In the Emails to Ray section, the latest one talked about Parables. Specifically the rich man and Lazarus. Here is the funny thing about the belief that it is not a parable. In my bible, at the back of it lists various resources for reference, such as definitions, places, and it just so happens to list Jesus' parables. Well, in short, the rich man and Lazarus  is listed as a parable. Actually 2 of my bibles show this. Anybody else have bibles that show this?

[okjohnson]

Don't have my bible with me.

But a search of google.com of lazarus and the rich man, turns up a lot of hits that claim it is a parable.
Even Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazarus_and_Dives calls it a parable.

I am not so sure that all Orthodox Christainanity claims it is not a parable so much as they do not interpret it as a whole, as a parable. They interpret it as partially parable and partially literal. There are various approaches to the interpretation of parables, depending on what doctrine(s) someone needs to support. For someone who believes in a physical literal burning hell, then hell in this parable means that burning  hell to them.


Of course none of Jesus parables can be understood by Orthodox Christainanity anyway, because of the doctrine's they keep , and their method of literal interpretation, and context.

I think that Ray's reply to this was about the only approach he could take with this person, without taking on all the false doctrines the person had in his heart.

[Pax Vobiscum]

Hasn't Ray referred to the entire Bible as a parable? 

Does counting this story as a parable change its meaning or its teaching points?

Does it matter whether Jesus' teaching methods were "Based On Actual Events" or not?  What if we were to discover that the Lazarus story was fictionalized to make its point or that the Prodigal Son characters were real?  Would this change anything?

Peace

[ciy]

Pax
Don't know exactly what you are getting at, but one thing to remember it is not Ray that says the bible is a parable the bible says it is a parable.  Ray just agrees with the bible.
CIY

[Kat]

Hi Pax,

I think the parables that Jesus used have tremendous spiritual meaning, totally hidden from the whole world, ecept for those who are having their eyes opened.

Here is what Ray says about parables.

http://bible-truths.com/lazarus.html -------------

WHY PARABLES?

When one looks at all the parables, as they are "literally" written they really are of little spiritual value, and often are physiological impossibilities, or don't tell us things we didn't already know.

Look at the parable of the tares: A man sews good seed. An enemy sews tares. A servant suggests they pull out the tares. The owner suggests that would pull out the good wheat as well.. So he says to wait till harvest and then separate the wheat from the tares, (Mat. 13:24-30). None of the parables are to be understood in their literal language. Some, like Lazarus and the Rich man, are physiological impossibilities if taken literally.

Interestingly, this parable of the tares can be taken literally. That is it makes sense even in its literal language, and does not contradict other Scriptures.

However, it was not meant to be taken literally, and if we take this parable "literally," what do we learn? Quite frankly, not much. Are you suggesting that Christ wasted His time giving little household hints and horticultural tips? Like, how to weed your garden? Come on.

When Christ explains this parable to His disciples, it takes on enormous meaning never even suggested in the "literal" story. Parables are in some ways like fine poetry. Marvelous word pictures having giant spiritual applications and ramifications can be presented with very few words, AND, it is God's purpose to conceal many of the truths of His Kingdom except to those to whom it is given to understand.

See the spiritual application of Matt. 14:37-43:

The "sower" is none less than the Son of man.

The "field" is the world.

The "good seed" are the children of the Kingdom of God.

The "tares" are the children of the wicked one (Satan).

The "harvest" is the end of the age.

Now that's some pretty heavy stuff! This is no horticultural tip for would be farmers. I have already shown how utterly ludicrous it is to try and take Lararus and the Rich man literally, not to mention totally unscriptural..
-------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace, and love
Katt

[Pax Vobiscum]

Hasn't Ray referred to the entire Bible as a parable? 

Does counting this story as a parable change its meaning or its teaching points?

Does it matter whether Jesus' teaching methods were "Based On Actual Events" or not?  What if we were to discover that the Lazarus story was fictionalized to make its point or that the Prodigal Son characters were real?  Would this change anything?

Peace

Let me try again....

Shakespeare mused that should we call a rose by another name, would it lose its scent?

My point is not about the validity of the teachings in Jesus' parables.  My point is what does it matter whether we get his teachings derive from fictionalized stories or not?  The lesson is the thing.  Does it matter whether we call the Lazarus lesson a "parable" or not?  I am pretty sure that the modern definition of "parable" requires that it be fiction.  I am not sure what the 1st century definition is.  At any rate, my point is that we should not fret whether Lazarus was an actual person rather focus on the teaching from that anecdote.

Peace

[Kat]

Hi Pax,

Yes see what you're saying, that is a truth for sure, it is the message that is important, by whatever means He brings it to us.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[hillsbororiver]

 

Hold on to your chairs folks.....

I am in full agreement with Pax on this one!  

It does not add or take away from the message of Christ whether a certain lesson refers to a literal or fictional event.

The bible is full of metaphors, similes, figures of speech, etc.

From Lake of Fire Part 1; http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html

BIBLICAL FIGURES OF SPEECH

Here are some of the fully substantiated figures of language used in Scripture. I borrowed many of these examples from an appendix in the back of The Concordant Literal New Testament.

We will begin with FIGURES OF LIKENESS which include:

similes (when something is like, or as something else, it is a simile rather than a metaphor)
metaphors (where one thing is said to actually be something else) as in, "all life is grass" I Pet. 1:24. Therefore, the subject of this paper IS a metaphor and CANNOT be literal: John says, "...the lake of fire, This IS the second death" (Rev. 20:14), and "...the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which IS the second death" (Rev. 21:
implications
parables (there are many, the shortest one being, "Physician, heal Thyself" Luke 4:23)
allegories (as in the two women standing for two covenants, Gal. 4:22-28)
visions (as in a sheet let down from heaven, Acts 10:11-16)
signs (as in the sign of Jonah the prophet, Matt. 12:39)
types (as in Adam corresponding with Christ, Rom. 5:12-21)
shadows (as in the law being a shadow of good things to come, Heb. 10:1)
examples (as in the tabernacle vessels being examples of what is in heaven , Heb. 9:23)
images (as Christ is the image of God, Col. 1:15)
impersonations or personifications (where things are spoken of as persons)
condescension's (as where God takes on human attributes)
diminutives (as in "little women, heaped with sins" II Tim. 3:6)
There are FIGURES OF ASSOCIATION which include:

association or metonymy's
appellations (as when a quality or office is used instead of a proper name, as in "Son of Mankind" instead of saying Jesus Christ)
compound associations (as "the word of the cross" I Cor. 1:18, which has to do with Christ's shameful and agonizing death)
near associations (as in a phrase that is partly literal, "Then went out to Him Jerusalem [that is the people of Jerusalem]", Matt. 3:5)
retention's (this one is too complicated to explain, but I'll give you an example, "the tablets of the heart" II Cor. 3:3)
circumlocutions or periphrasis (what is "circumlocution"? Well, it's a descriptive phrase in place of a name in order to emphasize the association. Examples, "the product of the grapevine [though not named is, wine]" Matt. 26:29, "the city of David [though not named is, Bethlehem]" Luke 2:11,
enigmas, and symbols (where a known object or something else is used to typify something else, or even an intangible quality such as love, power, beauty, etc.)

Peace,

Joe

[Pax Vobiscum]

I...am....post-less!

Peace

[sasscell]

I am in agreement that the entire Bible is a parable, but CIY mentioned that the Bible says the Bible is a parable....I am not familiar with a particular scripture. Is this an inferrence (sp)? to Christ speaking to the multitudes only in parables??  Chapter and verse(s) please.

[ciy]

Sasscell

If you have software or a website to do it on, do a search of "parable" and it is in the bible 50 times.  Read those verses and ponder their meaning.  To me the most direct reference to the bible being a parable is Psalm 78:1-3, Ezekiel 17:2, and Mark 4:34.

Also you may want to search the word "proverb" which is the same as parable.
See what you see.

CIY

[Pax Vobiscum]

Sorry, ciy,  I am with sasscell on this.  I do not see where the Bible refers to itself ever, let alone describing itself as a parable, proverb, or allegory. 

Peace

[rjsurfs]

It matters greatly that Lararus and the Rich man is not literal.  If it were literal it would be in contradiction with the rest of the Bilble.

It is important to know this.

[hillsbororiver]

CIY has got this right, Christ is the Word and the Word is a parable understood only by those whom He chooses to receive understanding.

KJV

Mat 13:10  And the disciples came and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

Mat 13:11  He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Rotherham's

Mat 13:10 And the disciples coming near said to Him, Wherefore in parables art thou speaking to them?

Mat 13:11 And He answering said, Because unto you hath it been given, to get to know the sacred secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, whereas unto them hath it not been given.

This still applies to all the spiritual Truths contained in Scripture.

His Peace to you,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

It matters greatly that Lararus and the Rich man is not literal.  If it were literal it would be in contradiction with the rest of the Bilble.

It is important to know this.

Hi Bobby,

If you understand the true spiritual message the physical application is moot or in this case (Lazaras parable) a given, of course it isn't literal, but there are cases where the historical event is a shadow of a deeper more profound spiritual event.

I hope this helps,

Joe   

[sasscell]

Ciy, I don't have e-sword on this computer, but I did look up the scriptures you mentioned.  I don't see these scriptures as specific, but infered as I stated.  However, I am reminded of this:

1Cor. 10:11  Now all these things happened unto them FOR EXAMPLES: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

It is accepted commonly I think that all Israel went through is a physical paralell of our spiritual life...did I say that right, spell that right?? I think that is a bit more solid.

[rjsurfs]

there are cases where the historical event is a shadow of a deeper more profound spiritual event.

Joe, 

I agree with you, however, this is not one of those cases.  If we take this parable literally it contradicts the rest of the Bible in regards to the death state.

[sasscell]

Good scriptures Joe, thanks, but a question.  Christ is clearly the Word, BUT is Christ the scriptures? Obviously, The Word was around "in the beginning" long before the scriptures. I'm being serious, is there a difference?  Does Ray have something on this??

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Bobby

You observe quite rightly I believe

If we take this parable literally it contradicts the rest of the Bible in regards to the death state...

To add : what is deeply insightful is that " The REASON for so many desiring to take this parable literally is an attempt to add credence to the HERETICAL teaching that God Almighty is going to torture the vast majority of all humanity." First page Lazarus and the Rich Man L. Ray Smith.http://bible-truths.com/lazarus.html

For me, this offers a powerful discernment of motive of the heart that is certainly the Babylonian heart of deceptive and false teachings of Church leaders who will not budge regarding what they think is the truth!

Peace to you

Arcturus

[hillsbororiver]

there are cases where the historical event is a shadow of a deeper more profound spiritual event.

Joe, 

I agree with you, however, this is not one of those cases.  If we take this parable literally it contradicts the rest of the Bible in regards to the death state.

True Bobby, I thought I was clear on that, my apology if I was not.

His Peace to you,

Joe