Question - Matt 10 - need an answer

[Triton]

Hi All,

I just registered and am happy to be here.
I'm a South African living in Taiwan where as far as my friends go, I'm the only one who believes in the way
that the people here on the forum do - I'll tell you, it gets a bit lonely sometime.

Anyway, I have been reading quite a bit as a guest and after not finding an answer to a specific question,
I decided to join to ask you guys in the hope that someone might help me out with a question.

Well, I'll fire away with my question. I read in Matthew 10:26-33 where it states that we should fear him
who could kill both body and SOUL.
Now, I quite understand the body part, but not the SOUL part.
The body will die, right?
Can the soul also die too? I'm under impression it can't. But, then this scripture.
I've been reading Ray's teachings. Not all, but most. It's taking me a very long
time seeing that I tend to stop and let it all just sink in over time before continuing.

I would highly appreciate it if someone here could explain this scripture and how to "harmonize" it with the rest.

Well, OK, that's it. Don't want to write too much.

Everyone take care
Paul

[Chris R]

Hi Paul

Eze 18:20  "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." 

Pretty straight forward, Keep reading Rays Site, there are many answers to your questions.

Kat Can find you the place were Ray goes over that very verse.

Peace

Chris R

[Kat]

Hi Paul,

I'm glad you have joined us 

Good question, because it does seem a bit confusing what is being said.
Here is a excerpt from the Hell part C, 'THE ORIGIN OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT.'
I think this will answer you question.

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html ----------------

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in gehenna" (Matt. 10:28).

                                   IMMORTAL SOUL?

I am now going to show you how to be smarter and more knowledgeable than most theologians in the world—(at least in this one little point). Okay; follow very closely, for we are going to get really really technical for a few minutes:

First: Can God "destroy the body?" Well, yes, of course He can, Jesus just said that He "is ABLE." So God "IS able to destroy the body." Now, I believe Jesus. I think that most of you believe Jesus. But, do orthodox pastors and theologians, believe Jesus? Yes, from all that I know, they do believe Jesus on this point.

Next: Can God "destroy the soul?" Well, yes, of course He can, Jesus just said that He "is ABLE." So God "IS able to destroy the soul." Now, I believe Jesus. I think that (some of) you believe Jesus. But, do orthodox pastors and theologians, believe Jesus? No, of course not. How can a soul which they teach is immortal, ever be "destroyed?" Now let's proceed to some more "technical stuff":

God created humanity in two stages, not three (Gen. 2:7):

[1] "And the Lord God formed man [Heb: 'adam, a human being'] of the dust [Heb: 'aphar, powdered gray, hence clay'] of the ground [Heb: 'adamah, soil']

[2] "and breathed into his nostrils the breath [Heb: 'n'shahmah, puff, wind'] of life [Heb: 'chay, alive, life, living'] and man became [Heb: 'hayah, exist, be, become, come to pass'] a living [Heb: 'chay, alive, life, living'] soul [Heb: 'nephesh, a breathing creature, animal, vitality, mind, mortality']."

Well, there you have it: God's abbreviated version of how He created humanity.

Let me next draw your attention to something that few Christians have ever seen, even though it is right before their eyes in every Bible on earth. I said that God created man in two stages rather than three. I emphasize this because theology teaches that God made man in three stages. Here is their unscriptural version: First God formed the man of the ground, Second God breathed life into the man, and Third God put an immortal soul into the man. If you doubt that this is what they teach, ask your pastor.

However, did we read of these fabled three stages of man's creation in the Scripture quoted above? No, no we didn't. We read of two things in man's creation at the hands of God. First God formed the man of the ground, Second God breathed life into the man, and Third God...? God what? There ain't no Third. "man became a living soul" is part of stage Two. There is no third stage. God did not "put an immortal soul into the man." Where do we read of such unscriptural nonsense?

God didn't need to do anything after He breathed into him the breathe of life. It was the breath of life from God that caused the man to become a living soul. God didn't put a soul into Adam; Adam is a living soul. The spirit of man, which God gives to every human, is like a light switch—Switch it 'on' and the light glows: Switch it 'off' and the light is dark, gone, dead. Put the spirit in the man, and the man is a living soul: take the spirit out of the man, and the man is a dead soul. Do you think that even your children could understand this Scriptural Truth? Perhaps you should teach them, and then they could teach your pastor.

The "body" of the deceased is gone forever. In resurrection to immortality, God gives everyone a new spiritual body. God can bring back the person in any "body" He desires. When God puts your "spirit" (not you soul) but your spirit (which has no consciousness) back into another body (as in a resurrection with a new spiritual body), the same real person/soul will live again. God can do this, but man can't, so fear God.
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mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Triton]

Hi Chris & Kat,

Thank you for the quick reply!

Kat I read the article you posted here. That explains it well thanks. I'll take some time to ponder
over it as I do with most teaching here - needs to sink in and settle well.
I am working my way through Ray's teaching while at the same time filling my Bible with notes.

I really appreciate your helping with my question here.

Take care
Paul

[gmik]

Hi Paul!!




Great Question.  I needed a quick refresher on that very question.

Would love to hear your "story".

[aktikt]

Gina,

I did too.

Thanks,
Josh

[Triton]

Hi Gena,

Would I be right in assuming you're a woman?
My wife is called Gina with an "i".
Thank you for the welcoming!

Wow, you ask about my story. I'm kind of trying to understand my story.
Have been reading bible-truths for a few months now after searching a lot
for answers to the "obvious" questions which I think one starts having when
in churches.
I'm still going to a church. I'm a leader of what we call a "zone". Our zone being
the foreigners in a foreign country(Taiwan).
I do not believe as before. I've seen the truth here. I have feelings of guilt towards
my friends in church and the pastor and other fellow churchgoers. Perhaps feeling that I'm letting
them down. I know I'm not, but those are the feelings if I have to b honest.
I kind of know that it is a matter of time before I quit my position. it seems inevitable.
Not something I'm looking forward to because of the small community I'm in.

Maybe the members here can help with some encouraging words as to how they managed
getting out of the Babylonian system.

As for my "story", I'll think more about it. Maybe I'll keep posting here with some questions
and updates about how I'm getting out of her.

Thank you for this site's encouragement and peace to you all.

Regards
Paul

[dawnnnny]

Paul,

Just wanted to say hello and welcome to the forum.  I know you will get much from reading these posts. 
God bless you in your continuing walk with Him!   

Dawn

[LittleBear]

Hi Paul,

Welcome! I'm so glad you found this site.

As far as leaving your church group, it will be hard, because I'm sure you are all close. However, because you are seeing God's truths and they are in conflict with those of your group, as you said, it is inevitable. It is a difficult step because we all want fellowship and don't want to disappoint our friends. But you won't be able to keep quiet, and eventually you will leave, or you will be asked to leave. Sorry about that. It's a wrenching experience, but also full of joy when you are in the strong hands of our Father.

I pray that God will give you strength and courage.

Love,

Ursula

[bambam]

Hello Paul,

      Welcome to the forum.  I am fairly new here myself, and I have to say that your question is a very timely one!!  My husband and I are going through a rough time-he does not see what I have seen in the Bible.  So, we are studying together-just started last night.  The first subject we are working on is Hell.  And it is difficult for me because I don't know all of the answers and I do not want to debate with him.  But we ended on this very portion of scripture about the body and soul being destroyed in hell(Gehenna).  He could not deny that the word used here is destroy-which we both agreed that it means just that-to destroy.  But I don't believe it has changed anything in him.  He has an open mind-to some degree.  But I really think he is just desiring to get the "false teachings out of our home" so to speak. 

As for leaving Babylon, I am still there-in body.  My husband told our pastor about my beliefs and I think this is the first step to something.  I admit that I am scared.  My husband is loyally devoted to the church and the pastor-he is a good man, and the church is full of good people.  It will be a tough journey I am sure-I do not know how it will go, but one thing is for sure-I cannot see myself going back to believing that most of humanity is going to hell for eternity.

I pray for you, and for me, that we continue in the truth and trusting God no matter what comes our way.  Blessings to you!

In Christ's love,
Beth 

[hillsbororiver]

Here is more from Ray on this topic;



DESTROYED, PERISHED, AND LOST

DESTROYED: Is being destroyed a condition from which there is not salvation? Jesus said,

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to DESTROY both soul and body in hell [the Greek is "gehenna" NOT hell. It is 'gehenna fire,' Mat. 5:22, not 'hell fire']" (Matt. 10:28).

Is there no salvation from this "destruction" in gehenna fire? Notice that they are not "eternally lost" in gehenna fire, but they are "DESTROYED" in gehenna fire. Their condition is that of being DESTROYED. This is not a hopeless condition or even our own Lord would have been put into a hopeless condition.

"Jesus answered and said unto them, DESTROY this temple, and in three days I will raise it up ... but He spake of the temple of His BODY" (John 2:19 & 21).

Later they did destroy Jesus Christ and sure enough three days later God SAVED Jesus from that destruction.

Notice what Job said with relation to being "destroyed":

"Thine hands have made me and fashioned me together round about; yet Thou dost DESTROY me" (Job 10:8).

Yet Job knew that God would yet save him. In Jeremiah 18 God tells Jeremiah to go down to the Potter's house and observe him work. Jeremiah sees the potter destroy a marred work in his hand and refashion it into something useful. This we learn is an analogy of how God would "destroy" Judah (Ver. 7), and yet save him in the end. God will refashion all of marred (destroyed) mankind into glorious sons of God!

PERISHED: Can a person perish and still be saved? Of course. Even "righteous" men can perish,

"All things have I seen in the days of my vanity: there is a JUST MAN that PERISHES in his righteousness, and there is a wicked man that prolongs his life in his wickedness" (Ecc. 7:15).

One more,

"The RIGHTEOUS PERISHES, and no man lays it to heart..." (Isa. 57:1).

Perishing is not something that can cut off God's arm of salvation.

LOST: Can a person sin, be lost, die, and then be saved? Certainly. Let's look at one of those parables of Jesus that Christendom thinks are easy to understand little stories, when in fact they don't even begin to understand. You all know the story contained in the parable of the Prodigal son so I won't read it all, but let me give you the "truth" of this parable.

God is the "Father" in this parable, and the Prodigal is EVERY SON WHO HAS GONE ASTRAY.

"And when he had spent all ... And when he came to himself ... I will arise and go to my father ... I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight ... And am no more worthy to be called thy son ... But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet. And bring hither the fatted calf ... For this my son was DEAD, and is alive again; he was LOST, and is found. And they began to be merry" (Luke 15:14-23).

This man SINNED, he was LOST, and he SPIRITUALLY DIED! Do we ALL spiritually DIE? "AND AS IT IS APPOINTED UNTO MEN ONCE TO DIE..." But isn't this speaking of the PHYSICAL death of our bodies? No it is not. The second part of the verse gives us the answer as to which death this is,

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but AFTER this the JUDGMENT" (Heb. 9:27).

Notice that "judgment" comes after this death, and not before. We already learned that JUDGMENT is upon the house of God NOW! Each individual Christian in every generation is judged NOW, in THIS life, BEFORE he physically dies! And so the "death" that all men must partake of before judgment is SPIRITUAL DEATH. Notice:

"And I saw THE DEAD, small and great, STAND before God" (Rev. 20:12).

How pray tell can the physically dead, stand, if they are dead?

So here then is the order of things. The Prodigal Son SINNED, he was LOST, he spiritually DIED, and then? And then he was JUDGED! Where and when was he judged? In the hog pens of a far alien country, that's where. God had to bring him out of this alien county (Mystery Babylon the Great) with all its "riotous living" (Luke 15:13). And so it was that God JUDGED this Prodigal with the beasts and swine of Babylon until he "came to himself." (Ver. 17). Seems to me that God sent King Nebuchadnezzer into the fields with the beasts to live like a beast, so that he too "came to himself." God has not warned in vain to

"Come out of her [MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH] my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues" (Rev. 17:5 & 18:4).

Him that has an ear, let him hear.

And so this Prodigal SINNED, was LOST, and spiritually DIED. Surely he is outside of the realm of salvation now. No, he is in the perfect realm FOR SALVATION. How many millions of times this parable of the Prodigal Son has been read, but how many times has its truth ever been understood and perceived? This prodigal was, according to his father, "DEAD." And it was after his father said that he was "dead" that he welcomed him back, forgave him, exalted him, and rewarded him! Now who says one can't be saved after death. It is after death that most of humanity will be saved.

May God finally grant you to SEE SOMETHING SPIRITUAL! Parables are NOT literal, that's why they are called "parables" instead of "history." This parable pictures the carnal mind going the way of the flesh. What are the wages of living a riotous life in the alien land of lustful Babylon? Is it "life and joy in the holy spirit?" I speak as fool. Here is the wages of riotous and carnal living in the hog pens of Babylon: "For the wages of sin is DEATH..." (Rom. 6:23). SPIRITUAL DEATH! What must happen AFTER we spiritually DIE? "JUDGMENT!" The spiritual DEAD must be JUDGED. Does judging CORRECT the spiritually dead sinners? Yes it does. That is what the parable of the Prodigal Son is all about. God's "ways and means" ALWAYS WORK!

"...For when Thy [God's] JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the INHABITANTS OF THE WORLD WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)!

You can read the entire article here;

http://bible-truths.com/lake4.html

His Peace to you,

Joe

[DuluthGA]

Great to hear from you Paul, so glad you joined in!

I don't have any advice for you now, but I will be including you and your family in my prayers, praying specifically for the augmenting and refining of your leadership abilities and gifts so that maybe you can eventually start or sponsor a new group that grows in the truth.

Let the Son shine in!  ;D
Janice

[iris]

Hi Paul,

Welcome to the forum!!!
So glad that you're here.






Peace and Love
Iris