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Kevin:
I thought the paper was very well written.
Speaking of free will. The churches believes that man has free will, for the fact they believe in ET. They understand neither of these.

bobf:
This part REALLY hit home to me.


--- Quote ---If you cannot identify yourself, personally, with all the stories and accounts in the Old Testament, then you have not even begun to overcome all the carnality that you are.
--- End quote ---


When I first started to believe that God would save all mankind. I wasn't completely convinced.  I had seen mostly NT verses about it.  But something within me told me to search the OT to see if this is the truth.

So I started doing that about 2 years ago.  Reading lots & lots of the OT passages with an eye towards seeing if God would be saving all mankind.

My prior indoctrination had taught me that the OT was a literal history written TO Israel and FOR our learning.  I knew it contained some foreshadows & types of Christ, but beyond that it was LITERAL and FOR our learning, not TO us and certainly not ABOUT us.

But then something happened as I read.  Completely unexpected.  Little by little I began to see these OT passages as spiritual allegories & parables.  And then I began to see MYSELF being talked about in these parables.  I told my son & wife about it.  Then I searched the internet to see if others thought this way.  But I didn't really find anyone.  I never even saw it stated this way in Mikes or Rays writings either.

Until recently that is, when I heard Mike teach this on audio (I literally jumped out of bed and danced in the room!) and now Ray says it in this paper.

Jesus said regarding the OT scriptures "they are they which testify of me [Jesus]" but  they are that ALSO which testify of US, because "as He is so are we in this world."

So this is what I say:
Come see a man who told me all the things that I ever did! Is this not the Christ!

love_magnified:
There is punishment. The futility he subjected us to is slavery to sin. Adam was flesh from the beginning, but had not sinned. The devil decieved them into desiring to please their flesh. They sinned and God gave them their consequence which we inherited: being cast away from Him into darkness. We sin because we are blind, and sinning leads to more blindness: futility. Now by the power of the spirit within, this futility is broken in all those who believe. Those who believe are the Sons of God, and they will recieve creation into their glorious liberty. That's the hope we look forward to.

orion77:
Bobf, I agree totally.  Amen!  When that light is turned on, wow oh wow!!!  Everything changes, truly reborn.

I have often thought that this life is no different than the Israelites of the OT.  Too many simularities to just be coincedence.  All I can say is, it's amazing how blind and deaf I was.  I thank God for putting me through all these hard times to bring me to His senses, not mine!

God bless,

Gary

love_magnified:

--- Quote from: Shoeman ---So you go on, being what you were? Doesn't sound like punishment to me.
--- End quote ---

God's punishment often has to do with turning man over to a reprobate mind.


--- Quote ---Consider: The born Blind man has no concept of being blind until told. Then he has to wonder what he lacks all of his life until sight is restored.
--- End quote ---

Of course, the Church in Laodocia didn't even know they were blind, naked etc. They are judged without even knowing it. But their nakedness and blindness will be exposed to them. God's judgements tend to be progressive.



--- Quote ---I've heard a quote from a Native American man (or maybe an eskimo) to a missionary thats roughly: "If I had never known about the Bible, would I have gone to Heaven?" The missionary replies yes. In which case the Native says, "Then why did you tell me?" My point, some people are content with blindness. The natural cycles aren't futile, but vital in their way.
--- End quote ---

Peter said would be better to not have ever heard the truth than to hold it in unrighteousness. Those who did wrong but did not know will be beaten with less stripes than people who knew and ignored. Many people are content with their blindness today. But they will have their blindness made manifest to them. It is fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

But the interesting thing there, is that the Native American is being told a lie. Had he been told the truth, that by believing in Christ he would be given all God's glory to recieve the rest of Creation into glorious liberty, he would rejoice. Unless he just wasn't interested..


--- Quote ---Of course if you want to be biblical, they can seem that way when you have the opportunity to rest in a Paradise. But then again, the answers of "blindness and darkness" really dont' seem like answers.
--- End quote ---
The natural cycles are futile to anyone who puts their faith in the natural things and not the spiritual things.

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