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Author Topic: Numbering His People  (Read 4278 times)

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hillsbororiver

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Numbering His People
« on: August 25, 2007, 10:04:32 AM »

When reading about God's displeasure in David taking a census of the people I really did not understand the significance of it, but I believe that this verse from Hosea helps to put this in perspective.

Hos 1:10  Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

Many in and out of the Christian denominations also attempt to limit or put a tally on the number of people the Lord will eventually save, this too I am sure displeases our Lord.


 1 Chronicles 21

 1And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

 2And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it.

 3And Joab answered, The LORD make his people an hundred times so many more as they be: but, my lord the king, are they not all my lord's servants? why then doth my lord require this thing? why will he be a cause of trespass to Israel?

 4Nevertheless the king's word prevailed against Joab. Wherefore Joab departed, and went throughout all Israel, and came to Jerusalem.

 5And Joab gave the sum of the number of the people unto David. And all they of Israel were a thousand thousand and an hundred thousand men that drew sword: and Judah was four hundred threescore and ten thousand men that drew sword.

 6But Levi and Benjamin counted he not among them: for the king's word was abominable to Joab.

 7And God was displeased with this thing; therefore he smote Israel.

 8And David said unto God, I have sinned greatly, because I have done this thing: but now, I beseech thee, do away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly.

 9And the LORD spake unto Gad, David's seer, saying,

 10Go and tell David, saying, Thus saith the LORD, I offer thee three things: choose thee one of them, that I may do it unto thee.

 11So Gad came to David, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Choose thee

 12Either three years' famine; or three months to be destroyed before thy foes, while that the sword of thine enemies overtaketh thee; or else three days the sword of the LORD, even the pestilence, in the land, and the angel of the LORD destroying throughout all the coasts of Israel. Now therefore advise thyself what word I shall bring again to him that sent me.

 13And David said unto Gad, I am in a great strait: let me fall now into the hand of the LORD; for very great are his mercies: but let me not fall into the hand of man.

 14So the LORD sent pestilence upon Israel: and there fell of Israel seventy thousand men.

 15And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.

 16And David lifted up his eyes, and saw the angel of the LORD stand between the earth and the heaven, having a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders of Israel, who were clothed in sackcloth, fell upon their faces.

 17And David said unto God, Is it not I that commanded the people to be numbered? even I it is that have sinned and done evil indeed; but as for these sheep, what have they done? let thine hand, I pray thee, O LORD my God, be on me, and on my father's house; but not on thy people, that they should be plagued.

 18Then the angel of the LORD commanded Gad to say to David, that David should go up, and set up an altar unto the LORD in the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.

 19And David went up at the saying of Gad, which he spake in the name of the LORD.

 20And Ornan turned back, and saw the angel; and his four sons with him hid themselves. Now Ornan was threshing wheat.

 21And as David came to Ornan, Ornan looked and saw David, and went out of the threshingfloor, and bowed himself to David with his face to the ground.

 22Then David said to Ornan, Grant me the place of this threshingfloor, that I may build an altar therein unto the LORD: thou shalt grant it me for the full price: that the plague may be stayed from the people.

 23And Ornan said unto David, Take it to thee, and let my lord the king do that which is good in his eyes: lo, I give thee the oxen also for burnt offerings, and the threshing instruments for wood, and the wheat for the meat offering; I give it all.

 24And king David said to Ornan, Nay; but I will verily buy it for the full price: for I will not take that which is thine for the LORD, nor offer burnt offerings without cost.

 25So David gave to Ornan for the place six hundred shekels of gold by weight.

 26And David built there an altar unto the LORD, and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings, and called upon the LORD; and he answered him from heaven by fire upon the altar of burnt offering.

 27And the LORD commanded the angel; and he put up his sword again into the sheath thereof.

 28At that time when David saw that the LORD had answered him in the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite, then he sacrificed there.

 29For the tabernacle of the LORD, which Moses made in the wilderness, and the altar of the burnt offering, were at that season in the high place at Gibeon.

 30But David could not go before it to enquire of God: for he was afraid because of the sword of the angel of the LORD.

I found this to be interesting....

His Peace to you,

Joe
 

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hillsbororiver

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Re: Numbering His People
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2007, 11:12:56 AM »

Ray touched on this subject in Nashville, he pointed out the 2 sets of "saved," the former and the latter, the firstfruits and the fall harvest, the few and the many......


 Revelation 7

4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

 5Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

 6Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

 7Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

 8Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

 9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

 10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

His Peace to you,

Joe

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bobf

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Re: Numbering His People
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2007, 12:14:49 PM »

When reading about God's displeasure in David taking a census of the people I really did not understand the significance of it, but I believe that this verse from Hosea helps to put this in perspective.

Hos 1:10  Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

Many in and out of the Christian denominations also attempt to limit or put a tally on the number of people the Lord will eventually save, this too I am sure displeases our Lord.

Hey Joe, that's really cool -- I love it when this happens.  For a long time I had the same question -- what's all this fuss about numbering Israel?  I did not understand the allegory.  But upon reading the exact same verse from Hosea, I came to the same understanding you just expressed!  The prophets of babylon insist on numbering the children of God which will be without number.

That reminds me of a similar thing that happened to me when I first began to believe that God might save all mankind.  Like most, I still had many doubts and problem verses. One that troubled me was the word "remnant".  How can God save all if only a "remnant" is saved?  Sounds like only a subset.  But I was also coming to understand that "our God is a consuming fire" and that, in judgment, God devours the prideful spirit in man and leaves a humble and God-seeking spirit.  Could this new spirit be that "remnant"?  I thought that's what I was seeing, but also wondered if I was being "wacko" with the scriptures.  So I went to a UR forum and without expressing my own thoughts on the "remnant", I asked the question: "How can God save all mankind if only a remnant is saved.  What is this REMNANT??"  A very nice lady (redlettervoice) was at that forum and I'll never forget her one-line response: "The remnant is what's left when God is done remnanting!"  Her post was direct hit.

God bless,
Bob
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Numbering His People
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2007, 05:12:40 PM »

Hi Bob,

Thank you for your comments, you also got me thinking about remnant, yes christianity has used this word to justify the doctrine of ET or annihilation.

I believe that remnant, or remaining, residue (Strongs 3062 loipoi) is another example of the depth and texture of His Word, the sharpness of His two edged Sword. Remnant can be applied to the firstfruits of the harvest as well as what is left remaining in all the Sons and Daughters at the culmination of the ages when God is All in All. Everything that defiles or is impure is burned away leaving only the pure, refined and burnished spirit of His perfection in us and His creation.

His Peace to you,

Joe
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ciy

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Re: Numbering His People
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2007, 05:57:43 PM »

Joe,
It is amazing how in 2 Samuel it is God that causes David to number the people and in 1 Chronicles it is satan that provoked David to number the people.

I think this is also a statement about not trusting the Lord, but trusting in the arm of the flesh.  We must see it with our own eyes instead of just living by faith.

One other thing that seems to me to be in here.  When God is putting someone through a trial (David) it will also be a trial that affect others (the people of Israel)

This is milk and it is strong meat.  God's Word is awesome.
CIY
« Last Edit: August 27, 2007, 12:39:41 PM by ciy »
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bobf

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Re: Numbering His People
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2007, 06:07:34 PM »

Hi Bob,

Thank you for your comments, you also got me thinking about remnant, yes christianity has used this word to justify the doctrine of ET or annihilation.

I believe that remnant, or remaining, residue (Strongs 3062 loipoi) is another example of the depth and texture of His Word, the sharpness of His two edged Sword. Remnant can be applied to the firstfruits of the harvest as well as what is left remaining in all the Sons and Daughters at the culmination of the ages when God is All in All. Everything that defiles or is impure is burned away leaving only the pure, refined and burnished spirit of His perfection in us and His creation.

His Peace to you,

Joe


Thanks Joe,

Yes, I see it both of those ways too.

Here is the outward remnant, the first fruits, God's elect.

Romans 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Here (I think, though this passage is difficult) is the remnant within us, the Seed which is Christ in you.

Romans 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved  28  For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.  29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

God bless,
Bob
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rocky

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Re: Numbering His People
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2007, 06:16:51 PM »

Zec 13:8  And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

Zec 13:9  And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

1Pe 1:7  That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold thatperisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

1Pe 1:8  Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Rev 3:18  I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eye salve, that thou mayest see.


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hillsbororiver

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Re: Numbering His People
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2007, 12:01:34 PM »

Interesting stuff Bob & rocky,

This just got me to thinking once again about types/shadows, firstfruits/fall harvest....

Could this remnant be showing that we are composed of "beast, spirit of antichrist and the Spirit of Christ" within us? That 2 out these 3 need to be burned away by God's consuming fire either in this age or the ages to come?

Could it also at the same time be a parable showing first a few then the many entering His Kingdom?

Just speculating here, thank you both for the thought provoking posts!

His Peace to you,

Joe
 
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Numbering His People
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2007, 12:58:25 PM »

Now swerving back to the main topic.  ;)

How interesting is this?


Gen 41:49  And Joseph gathered corn as the sand of the sea, very much, until he left numbering; for it was without number.

Joh 12:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

His Peace to you,

Joe

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rocky

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Re: Numbering His People
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2007, 04:42:27 PM »

Now swerving back to the main topic.  ;)

How interesting is this?


Gen 41:49  And Joseph gathered corn as the sand of the sea, very much, until he left numbering; for it was without number.

Joh 12:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

His Peace to you,

Joe



Hi Joe, very cool

reminds me of this verse

Mark 4:3,8

Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow. 8- And other fell on good ground, anddid yield fruit that sprang up and increased, and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.

and in Genesis 12:3

in thy seed, all families of the earth blessed. 

blessed in Hebrew carries meaning of to bow down, (not at home to get the defintion), and

makes me think of every knee will bow,  .....

cool!!
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bobf

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Re: Numbering His People
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2007, 08:17:10 PM »

Awesome stuff guys.  And athiests wonder why we believe the scriptures are the Word of God!  It's amazing to see these types and shadows recorded way back in Genesis.

I'd be interested in hearing your interpretations of this parable (I see this a related to your posts).

Matthew 13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: 32  Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

What are each of these symbols?
[1] the seed
[2] the man
[3] the tree
[4] the birds of the air

Can we find two witnesses for each symbol?  Could be fun. I have in mind roughly how I understand it just from my general understanding, but I have not looked for two witnesses.
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bobf

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Re: Numbering His People
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2007, 08:22:32 PM »

Interesting stuff Bob & rocky,

This just got me to thinking once again about types/shadows, firstfruits/fall harvest....

Could this remnant be showing that we are composed of "beast, spirit of antichrist and the Spirit of Christ" within us? That 2 out these 3 need to be burned away by God's consuming fire either in this age or the ages to come?

Could it also at the same time be a parable showing first a few then the many entering His Kingdom?

Just speculating here, thank you both for the thought provoking posts!

His Peace to you,

Joe
 

I don't know what those three parts are, but I think you're right on the one part (Spirit of Christ) but I'm not as sure about the other two.  How is "the beast" any different from "the spirit of antichrist"?


« Last Edit: August 27, 2007, 09:06:42 PM by bobf »
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Numbering His People
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2007, 09:27:38 PM »

Interesting stuff Bob & rocky,

This just got me to thinking once again about types/shadows, firstfruits/fall harvest....

Could this remnant be showing that we are composed of "beast, spirit of antichrist and the Spirit of Christ" within us? That 2 out these 3 need to be burned away by God's consuming fire either in this age or the ages to come?

Could it also at the same time be a parable showing first a few then the many entering His Kingdom?

Just speculating here, thank you both for the thought provoking posts!

His Peace to you,

Joe
 

I'm don't know what the three parts are.  I think you're right on the one part (Spirit of Christ) but less sure about the other two.  How is "the beast" any different from "the spirit of antichrist" so as to compose two parts?



Hi Bob,

Again this being what one third is in regard to "remnant" is speculation on my part but the natural man is primarily a beast, like any other beast but antichrist is a false religion, worshipping an idol of our heart, believing we can thwart the will of God or that He is bound by our thoughts and actions.

Where would a simple beast come up with this idea? From the same source that deceived Eve, the serpent, the dragon, satan himself.

Rev 13:4  And they worshiped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshiped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

We were born beasts, but when we became spiritual (found our first love in Christ) we were no longer simple beasts we became spiritual creatures too, but when we lost our first love we become spiritual beasts (children of satan) and antichrists, we will remain that way until He drags us back to begin and complete the purging and refining (in His time).

The Spirit of Christ overcomes and refines the beast (through His Spirit) into a new (spiritual) creature.

Unbelievers have the beast within.

The called have the beast's wound healed by the spirit of antichrist.

The chosen have the Spirit of Christ battling (and overcoming) the wounded beast and antichrist within them.

This is how I am understanding this right now.

His Peace to you,

Joe
 

 

 

« Last Edit: August 27, 2007, 09:32:06 PM by hillsbororiver »
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bobf

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Re: Numbering His People
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2007, 10:02:11 PM »

Hi Bob,

Again this being what one third is in regard to "remnant" is speculation on my part but the natural man is primarily a beast, like any other beast but antichrist is a false religion, worshipping an idol of our heart, believing we can thwart the will of God or that He is bound by our thoughts and actions.

Where would a simple beast come up with this idea? From the same source that deceived Eve, the serpent, the dragon, satan himself.

Rev 13:4  And they worshiped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshiped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

We were born beasts, but when we became spiritual (found our first love in Christ) we were no longer simple beasts we became spiritual creatures too, but when we lost our first love we become spiritual beasts (children of satan) and antichrists, we will remain that way until He drags us back to begin and complete the purging and refining (in His time).

The Spirit of Christ overcomes and refines the beast (through His Spirit) into a new (spiritual) creature.

Unbelievers have the beast within.

The called have the beast's wound healed by the spirit of antichrist.

The chosen have the Spirit of Christ battling (and overcoming) the wounded beast and antichrist within them.

This is how I am understanding this right now.

His Peace to you,

Joe

Ok, gotcha Joe, thanks you made that crystal clear.  That healing of the beast reminds me of this verse.

Jeremiah 6:13 For from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely.  14 They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.

Sounds to me like healing the deadly wound through a false prophecy of "peace, peace".  I can not help but think of the sinners prayer and eternal security doctrine when reading this.  Say your prayer, and your home free.  Peace is assured, no need to overcome, no need to obey Christ.

Perhaps these are the same two parts right here?

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Blessing,
Bob
« Last Edit: August 27, 2007, 10:12:15 PM by bobf »
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Numbering His People
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2007, 12:25:42 PM »

Hi Bob,

Jeremiah 6:13 really jumped at me, I had never seen this way or it never registered in the light you have presented it in, healing the wound (collectively) of the flock/church. Good observation!

False prophet(s) being inspired by the spirit of antichrist is very credible as it was Christ Himself who inspired the Words of His own prophets and the Lord even referred to Himself as a Prophet.

Mat 13:57  And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honor, save in his own country and in his own house.

In Satan's counterfeit I can see a cloudy mirrored image of this.

The prophets of the Synagogue of Satan would be inspired by his lies and fallacies.

Holy Spirit of the Father and Son vs. unclean spirit of antichrist and the false prophet.

Thanks Bob!

His Peace to you,

Joe


 
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Numbering His People
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2007, 12:52:45 PM »

Joe,

Hi CIY,

It is amazing how in 2 Samuel it is God that causes David to number the people and in 1 Chronicles it is satan that provoked David to number the people.

Yes it is, but it reminds me of God allowing Job to be tempted and tormented by Satan, only David does seem to succumb a bit more. ;)  Satan does what God allows him to do, ultimately it is all under His (God's) control. I think David's passion coupled with his impatience led to many of his failings, I can sure relate to that!

I think this is also a statement about not trusting the Lord, but trusting in the arm of the flesh.  We must see it with our own eyes instead of just living by faith.

You nailed it, don't we see that every day not only in the churches with the alter calls and the 20 second word recital/saved prayers but also when we ourselves fail? When we take our eyes off of Christ and look to our own reasonings and feelings?

One other thing that seems to me to be in here.  When God is putting someone through a trial (David) it will also be a trial that affect others (the people of Israel)

Good one CIY, yes and we are accountable for both our lack of faith/action and for being a stumbling block to others around us.

This is milk and it is strong meat.  God's Word is awesome.

Amen to that!

CIY

His Peace to you,

Joe

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