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Author Topic: What is heretical?  (Read 3131 times)

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ciy

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What is heretical?
« on: August 25, 2007, 02:39:41 PM »

This is a question from my heart and not for disruption.  I am curious as to what should actually cause us to separate ourselves from other seekers through what we call heretical beliefs. 

It seems that if someone is truly seeking the sacred secrets with all of their heart, and someone else is seeking it with all of their heart but has a different view on a mystery of God from a seeking brother should we not continue to strive with that truly seeking brother to find the truth of the matter.

I realize that there are babes that we are to help to go "line upon line, precept upon precept", but for how long do we strive with one of those babes to not accept an obvious truth and not one of the sacred secrets.  Is this not allowing "a little yeast" into the loaf that will continue to spread until it has the whole loaf.  In other words, do we allow that belief until the whole group accepts something that is clearly against the word just to be open to certain people or being a respecter of persons instead of abiding by the word.

I was studying the following about what is an abomination and I am feeling that what is considered an abomination would also be heretical. 

See Deuteronomy 18:9-14
9 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.

When satan comes like an angel of light or a subtile serpent is when he creeps into the midst of us and rottens us from the inside out.  Those obvious abominations that the majority of the world accepts are easy to keep out of our midst, but I believe we must beware of these little pinches of the yeast of the pharisees that is allowed to just remain amongst us.  These "get along with the world beliefs" are what can keep all of us from being one in Christ.

I speak of when we are so quick to condemn when we disagree on one of the deeper truths of God, but we say it is ok to continue to observe days (Christmas, Easter, Halloween, and other pagan holidays) because God just has not convicted me of this yet.  What this seems to be is how the sins of the father are passed on to the sons because we just cannot keep our children or grandchildren from celebrating with the rest of the world so we allow that little bit of yeast into their lives that will be extremely hard to get out if ever.  We can condemn on a mystery because that is easy.  It does not separate us from the world, but when it comes to something visible to all and is an actual day by day separating out we seem to stumble over the stumbling block.

Again I am thinking out loud and speaking to myself as much as anyone else.  Just wondering what your thoughts are on this.

CIY
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: What is heretical?
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2007, 02:51:02 PM »

Hello Ciy

I realise that a blind person is blind.

I guard against agreement with what I know to be error. What I do find extraordinary is that spiritually blind people seek agreement and want agreement. I simply do not give it and if they want an explanation, which they often do not want, then it brings to light the separation anyway.

It would be different if someone wants to know the truth, but very few do.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
« Last Edit: August 25, 2007, 02:52:12 PM by Arcturus »
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rocky

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Re: What is heretical?
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2007, 02:55:43 PM »

I think this is a starting point.

1Jo 4:15  Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

 1Jo 2:23  Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: but he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

1Jo 2:22  Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1Jo 4:3  And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

1Jo 4:5  They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

1Jo 2:16  For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

1Jo 2:17  And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth forever.

1Jo 2:19  They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

I love how Paul, searched out, encouraged, reprimanded, the carnal Corinthians.  He didn't give up on them, he prayed for, cried over, and preached to them how to "grow up".  He called them brothers.  He reminded them of who thery are In Christ Jesus.

1Co 1:5  That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;

1Co 1:6  Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

1Co 1:7  So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1Co 1:8  Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Co 1:30  But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:


But at some point, one needs to be turned over to satan for the destruction of their flesh.  

I think the key is, at what point does one need to be cut loose, and turned over to satan for destruction of the flesh??  

Somewhere, i can't find it right now; there is a verse re: give them a couple of times to repent, then cut them loose.  I think it's in I Timothy??




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ciy

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Re: What is heretical?
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2007, 03:25:42 PM »

Arcturus and Rocky
Two good posts.  It is a matter of at what time you disassociate with others.

Titus 3:9-11

9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

CIY
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rocky

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Re: What is heretical?
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2007, 03:26:50 PM »

Titus 3:9-11

9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

CIY

that's the verse, thanks. 

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rocky

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Re: What is heretical?
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2007, 03:30:44 PM »

Tit 3:9  But hold yourself aloof from foolish controversies and pedigrees and discussions and wrangling about the Law, for they are useless and vain.

Gal 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you get the spirit by works of law or by hearing of faith?

1Jo 5:4 for all that is begotten of God is conquering the world. And this is the conquest that conquers the world: our faith.


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ciy

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Re: What is heretical?
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2007, 03:43:58 PM »

Thanks for those verses. 
Especially Galatians 3:2 that is a great verse.  Amazing how God's "line upon line" is the "Sum of the (whole) Word"
CIY
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Kat

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Re: What is heretical?
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2007, 04:01:46 PM »


Hi ciy,

Yes what you say does seem to be the case too often.  It is easy to separate ourselves from the big and obvious heretical teachings.  But there seems to be a lot of gray areas, when does tolerance for immature believers become yeast in our midst?  It is a serious obligation to protect this forum from this and I am thankful that we have mods that have discernment and experience in determining this. 
In our private lives gray areas can be tricky.  Is our being present at certain family functions, considered condoning it?  I guess it depends on how you actually deal with it. 
I have thought about what society traditions and customs, will Christ totally do away with in His kingdom.  Are we not to be preparing now to judge the world, with Christ?  If so we should be learning now, to live in every way, by what will be judged righteousness in the kingdom.

Isa 26:9  My soul yearns for Thee in the night, my spirit within me earnestly seeks Thee. For when Thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.

mercy, peace,a dnlove
Kat

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ciy

  • Guest
Re: What is heretical?
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2007, 04:45:29 PM »

Kat

You make good points.  As I think on this, I guess it has to do with the intent of the heart.  Are we doing it to glory God or are we doing it so as to keep peace with the world? 

It is, like Ray said, the hardest thing we will ever do to remain faithful to God.  It just seems we tend to all (me included) allow the physical things that seem all right even when God's word speaks directly against it.  It is like giving up baptisms, communion, public prayers, holy days, etc is hard for us to do because it is so easy to go along and after all "everybody does it". 

Like the bible says "It is a hard saying."  It brings into realization that the few chosen really are a very few like Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc you must separate yourself from the ways of the world, but it is a mystery.

I appreciate all of your posts.  It is something I will continue to meditate on.

CIY
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hillsbororiver

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Re: What is heretical?
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2007, 04:49:28 PM »


It would be different if someone wants to know the truth, but very few do.

Arcturus :)

Arcturus brings up some very valid points but I think the one above is the key. But how do we really know the motivation behind some of the questions that are asked or the opinions stated? As Kat said we need to have discernment, not respect of men or special considerations in regard to whether or not we are personally drawn to some people more than others.
 
The following verses have been quoted more than a few times when questions/statements seem to veer into what we call gray areas, the natural man needs to give way to His Spirit constantly seeking not the things that appear well and good to us but seeking His will in all our actions and words.


1Ki 3:9  Give therefore thy servant an understanding heart to judge thy people, that I may discern between good and bad: for who is able to judge this thy so great a people?
 
1Ki 3:10  And the speech pleased the Lord, that Solomon had asked this thing.
 
Remember Paul stated that "whatsoever is not of faith is sin." (Romans 14:23) This is quite a humbling thought to meditate on and part of our need to align our will to His will, not becoming blinded or thrown off course as to the ultimate purpose for our existence.

1Th 5:14  Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.
 
1Th 5:15  See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
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ciy

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Re: What is heretical?
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2007, 05:21:44 PM »

Thanks Joe

Amazingly I almost quoted Romans 14:23 earlier because it is such an anchor pin that is one of those verses that cuts through the gray issues and is relevant to all situations.

It seems to my observation that we tend to have "vain disputations and wrangling" about gray issues instead of being longsuffering with each other and reason together to find the end of a thing.  Then we allow into our midst the obvious unclean thing.  Like the verses that brought this to me in the first post that observing days (I believe this be the many pagan days that we observe) is an abomination to God just like homosexuality is an abomination to God, yet we overlook it because everyone does it.  It I am reading these verses correctly observing Christmas is on the same level with consulting with a witch.

Again I am continuing to meditate on this and I appreciate all of your posts.
CIY


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hillsbororiver

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Re: What is heretical?
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2007, 05:56:00 PM »

You are welcome CIY,

This is a very timely and interesting topic to be sure. However I do not believe that witchcraft, sexual sins, and tolerence of "special days" are equal abominations.

When one consults a seer, a witch or one who openly calls on familiar spirits they are seeking hidden knowledge outside of the sacred secrets revealed by God thus leaving themselves open to many things evil.

Sexual sins feed the carnal beast which is at enmity with God, we cannot grow in Him if we are at enmity.

Being tolerant of the people who keep a "holy" day that we ourselves know to be false can be to His ultimate glory, do we shout heretic! as Grandpa puts up a christmas tree? Do we accuse Mom, a family member, friend or aquaintance of being a child of Satan for giving us a present or card?

This topic of christmas has fueled the passions here before and although I do not keep this day as special I do not become a thorn in the side of those that do, I speak about it for what it is, a pagan holiday incorporated into christianity and leave it at that, my friends and family know I am wired differently (to say the least).

We know that Paul states he became all things to all men (1Cor 9:22) so he might save some. We can have patience and be of good cheer teaching by example to everyone we come into contact with, making a huge issue to the point of making those around us uncomfortable does not serve Christ, let them ask us about His Word, not becoming a wearisome tinkling cymbal (1Cor 13:1) who comes off as stiff and self righteous.

I sure hope we do not descend into a christmas debate as this is a very good thread and a topic worthy of exploration.

We can be in the world and still not be of it.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
 
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ciy

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Re: What is heretical?
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2007, 06:05:14 PM »

I must leave my computer for the day.  Sorry I cannot stay, but I understand what you are saying Joe and that I think is the question.  I do not mean to descend into a discussion of any particular day other than to ask is this the yeast of the Pharisees?  It is easy to rebuke for some doctrine that is not accepted in the world, but the harder things to leave we permit.

I am sorry to leave for the day.  I really am seeing this as important to one's growth in Christ and the truths.  I realize Paul was everything to all, but at the same time we are to not honor grandpa and grandma above the commandments of Christ and the scriptures that say "friendship with the world is enmity to God"

Please do not take any of this as just vain disputations it is in my heart.
I must go now.
CIY
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D Student

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Re: What is heretical?
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2007, 08:14:22 PM »



 Good topic. ;D  Now is the perfect time for this...

                                                                    D Student




 
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rk12201960

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Re: What is heretical?
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2007, 08:38:07 PM »

Hi all,
My thoughts are, have you ever try pushing a chain?
Unless Gods pulls the chain (person) the task is not possible!
We don't want to put ourselves in front of God and Jesus.
I think He knows what he is doing.
We are here for the boat ride, and don't wake Jesus.

Randy
 ;D 8) ;D
« Last Edit: August 25, 2007, 08:39:57 PM by Randy »
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gmik

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Re: What is heretical?
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2007, 02:12:13 AM »

1 John 2:15 -16  ....what exactly is loving the world???  To me these verses pretty much describe our society.  5 minutes of watching TV pretty much gets us into lust, and pride. 

Abraham believed and it was accounted for righteousness.  Is sometimes believing more important than doing??

Loving the world???  Our homes, families, jobs, hobbies, entertainment, vacations, reading, internet, sports is in the world system and we alll compromise somewhat to "enjoy" these things.  Like at an innocent baseball game.  You have to read some of the vulgar advertisements, sit w/ drunks & druggies, listen to the crappy music...well I hope you get the idea.

Don't we all love the world to varying degrees?  Do we yearn for Jesus every second?  Do we only want to know Him and obey Him all the time??? (I feel guilty when I reach for the newspaper and not the bible.)

Yes, this is a hard saying.....
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: What is heretical?
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2007, 05:34:53 AM »

Hello Ciy

You say : It is a matter of at what time you disassociate...

I do not believe it is a matter of at what TIME but on what beliefs you are either united or separated.


Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the statrue of the fullness of Christ.

So for me, our sentimentality, niceness, goodness and empathy is not what unites. Human friendships based on such emotions are fickle, unreliable and self invested. The Spirit of Christ, by contrast,  is the unifying Spirit. Our measure of obedience to Him is what unites us to one another and separates us from those who believe in another Jesus. Many believe in the other Jesus. Many will contest Christ when He comes and  say to Him...Lord...LORD...did not WE do this and that in YOUR NAME....etc How can you possibly not know US...WE who did this and that....

I believe Jesus sees those few lonely individuals who carry His cross and He rejects those who take the credit for His cross and never lift a finger to carry it but with their pomp and ceremony, they bring destruction upon themselves.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
« Last Edit: August 26, 2007, 05:39:27 AM by Arcturus »
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