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Author Topic: CARM  (Read 6028 times)

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nightmare sasuke

  • Guest
CARM
« on: April 22, 2006, 05:11:39 AM »

I was reading an article by Matt Slick attempting to refute the Truths of God and I noticed something. In my opinion, what I noticed is a total mistranslation and/or twist of God's Word.

Now, I have not taken four and a half years of Greek like Matt, but I have enough common sense to see through what, in my opinion, is a huge error! First of all, I have doubts about Matt's supposed four and a half years of Greek training. I saw him debate with someone in a chartroom, the person challenged his ability, showed him a verse in Greek, and asked him to translate it quickly. Matt, however, did not do a very good job. In fact, from what I remember, he did not translate it literally at all, but said something of the sorts, it’s talking about… and something about…. His response showed his failure to read Greek fluently.

Specifically, if memory serves me right, a guy was asking Matt about a word translated all, it had something to do with the predestination of all men, or something, and Matt said he could prove the word all does not mean all at all! He quoted, "So, as through one offense, there resulted condemnation to all men, so also, through one righteous deed, there resulted justification of life to all men" (NASB. Emphasis added). Matt said, and I quote him directly:

Quote
Matt_Slick:  noticed what it says at the end of the verse that justification result to all men
...
Matt_Slick:  we know that all men are not saved therefore all men there cannot be every individual who ever let [sic].
Matt_Slick: every lived [sic].


I replied:

Quote
nightmare_sasuke: Matt...did you ever consider, all men Will be saved in the end?
...
nightmare_sasuke: and that's why it says "all"[?]


And what do you think he asks me?

Quote
Matt_Slick: night,  are you a Universalist?
...
nightmare_sasuke: I'm..nothing [I am not a Universalist, but I am a follower of the Word, which teaches the "justifcation of life to all men" (NASB), which he happened to quote].
nightmare_sasuke: I believe it [the Scriptures] when it says "who will have all men to be saved"


The one guy who was questioning Matt’s ability to read Greek did not seem very pleased with Matt’s supposed Greek-reading abilities:

Quote

Taheton: Matt, I asked if fyou were a Greek expert, to which you replied, "i've had 4.5 years"
Taheton: I then  said, "May I test it?" You said, "By all means."

Taheton: Matt, I just can't believe how you are dodging this. I am not talking about it anymore.


Moreover...

Quote
John_P:  Matt... with all due respect... it seems to me that you are being evasive yourself.


Now, what really offended me was this:

Quote
Matt_Slick:  I'm about ready to kick them out of here
...
Taheton: if you want me to leave, I iwlll
...
Taheton: Matt, I will not live under these threats everytime I examine your arguments.
...
Matt_Slick: good bye [Matt then booted Taheton. Just when someone begins to question his authority, and present good, diplomatic, and controlled arguments, Matt bans them.]
...
Taheton has left.

- Emphasis added


Taheton came back, though:

Quote
Taheton has joined.
...
Taheton: Matt...
Taheton: you kicked me [out] again


What happened next?

Quote

Taheton has left.
...
georg: This is fun [sarcasm]
georg: ::lol


Thank God for John (who ever he is!)

Quote

John_P: It doesn't upset me as much as it upsets God.
...
John_P: You [the mods, I think] are setting a very bad  example.


Now look at this Christ-like attitude!

Quote

Taheton: Matt was just having a bad night


The reason why I showed some of the conversation from the chatroom is to prove that Matt's knowledge of Greek may be limited and also to give you all an insight into his personality/actions. But then again, these quotes may not reflect the totality of Matt's knowledge, because as Taheton said, Matt could have just had "a bad night."

Moving on… Matt quoted, in his article:

Quote
". . . and I [God] will accomplish all My good pleasure," (Isaiah 46:10).
"But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases," (Psalm 115:3).
"Whatever the Lord pleases, He does," (Psalm 135:6).


Now, we all know what these verses mean. They mean God does and will do what he desires. Now here's what Matt says:

Quote
To begin with, are God's desires always accomplished?  No, they are not.  God's desire is that people do what is right and not sin:  "To do righteousness and justice is desired by the Lord rather than sacrifice," (Prov. 21:3).  But people still sin in spite of God's stated desire" (Emphasis added).


Now, I have no idea what translation Matt used for that verse, but it is obviously in error. Here’s the KJV with Strong’s numbers:

Quote

Pro 21:3  To do6213 justice6666 and judgment4941 is more acceptable977 to the LORD3068 than sacrifice.4480, 2077


The KJV translates the word acceptable and not desired. When you look at the Hebrew word, more light is shed on this subtle and deceiving error:

H977
בּחר
bâchar
baw-khar'
A primitive root; properly to try, that is, (by implication) select: - acceptable, appoint, choose (choice), excellent, join, be rather, require.

Do any of you see the word desired in the definition? I sure as heck don’t! Lets look at an example of bachar used in the Scriptures:

Quote
“Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen [bachar]…? (Isa 44:1, KJV).


Is this word translated desired? No.

Here’s Rotherham’s rendering of Pro 21:3:

Quote
“To do righteousness and justice, is more choice to Yahweh than sacrifice? (Pro 21:3, Rotherham).


Do any of you see the word desired in there? I don’t. Here’s Yong’s Literal Translation:

Quote
“To do righteousness and judgment, Is chosen of Jehovah rather than sacrifice? (Pro 21:3, Young).


I would quote the CLV but I do not have it downloaded to this computer. I will post some more renderings of this verse later, including some literal interlinear renderings.

Matt goes on to say:

Quote
But people still sin in spite of God's stated desire.   Was it the desire of God that Adam and Eve rebel?  No.  Was it God's will that David commit adultery?  No. Yet, they did the very thing God did not want.  God commands that all people repent (Acts 17:30); but not all do. Clearly, God's will is not always done.


Matt did not quote a single Scripture to support his claim that it was not God’s “desire … that Adam and Eve? rebelled. I think we can all agree that God very well planned and desired (not out loud) that Adam and Eve rebelled. I could write paragraphs and paragraphs of why God desired Adam and Eve to rebel, but I’m sure Ray already did, so I won’t.

Matt, moreover, said that God did not desire David to commit adultery. I'm not sure about this. I'd have to look into it. But what I am sure of is that Matt did not quote a Scripture to support his claim.

Matt also said, “God commands that all people repent…? God commands… so what? Who said commandment and desire are synonymous? God commanded Abraham to kill his only son (Gen 22:2), but did God desire Abraham to kill his son? Of course not!

Matt quotes three Scriptures explaining God does what he desires. Then he goes on to explain God does not always do what he desires. Not only did Matt only quote but one Scripture  (ONLY ONE WITNESS) within the paragraph (pertaining to the subject of God's desires not being fulfilled in the end) to support his claim God does not do what he desires, but also the verse he quoted was mistranslated.

Now I do not have time to read the entire article tonight and refute it, but I think you guys can get the main idea from this post. Matt has a whole section on Universalism, http://www.carm.org/universalism.htm, and I personally think someone should write an article refuting it. I might sooner or later, starting with the article I just examined briefly.

I do not have anything against Matt Slick. I'm sure he is a good man. Maybe, as Taheton said, he was just having a bad night, the time he was in the chatroom. And maybe the error (as I see it) in his article was a mistake. However, I felt the need to share this with you guys.

PS. If this post contains any obvious errors, please forgive me, I wrote this post quickly (unlike Matt who probably spent a lot of time writing the article for his universalism section), and do not have the time to examine his entire article. If you guys would like to see the full chatroom conversation (or at least what I have saved) I can send it to you.

P.P.S. John_P is a very good man. He set a good example and stuck up for Taheton, me, and georg (we were all banned from the chatroom... me and georg for different reasons). I'm going to have to send him a personal message later thanking him.
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nightmare sasuke

  • Guest
CARM
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2006, 06:55:25 AM »

Keep in mind, I did not make this post so that we can hop around making fun of Matt, saying things like, we’re right and he’s wrong, we’re better than him! To the contrary, I have complete respect for Matt and I expect the rest of you to respect him as well. Even though, in my opinion, Matt is wrong on a lot of subjects, at least he’s taking the effort to write about those subjects and share what he thinks is the Word of God, which is more than most down right blind sheep can say.

Just like Matt, I would not enjoy having a mistake pointed out in my writings or teachings (I would admit to them and correct them, if someone pointed some mistakes out, though). However, I noticed the mistake (if what I said is correct), and thought my post could help people who were having doubts about the salvation of all mankind.

PS. Don't take my posts word for it, look for yourself! That's what I did when I started reading Matt's article, anyway, rather than blindly accepting what he said as Truth—it’s what we ALL (heh, heh) should do (in the Harlot, or out of it)!
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dogcombat

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CARM
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2006, 09:46:58 AM »

From what you posted, I would say that Matt fits into something we can all attest to when it comes to learning to discern the Truths of God.  Spiritual Discernment comes only from God (In Christ) not our limited line of human logic trying to understand.  Thus Matt comes across as well intended but sadly ignorant.  I'm sure he didn't mean to contradict himself, but not everyone can accept the fact that they can handle the Truth.

Ches
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nightmare sasuke

  • Guest
CARM
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2006, 02:00:50 PM »

Quote from: dogcombat
From what you posted, I would say that Matt fits into something we can all attest to when it comes to learning to discern the Truths of God.  Spiritual Discernment comes only from God (In Christ) not our limited line of human logic trying to understand.  Thus Matt comes across as well intended but sadly ignorant.  I'm sure he didn't mean to contradict himself, but not everyone can accept the fact that they can handle the Truth.

Ches


As for the mistranslated verse he quoted, I'm sure that was the result of trusting a translation without investigating the Hebrew. As for the other things he said that I disagree with—they were probably the result of orthodox theological indoctrination.
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Origen II

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CARM
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2006, 04:25:27 AM »

You sparred with Matt, Nightmare?

I'm impressed. I've never had the opportunity...nor have I ever tried.
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nightmare sasuke

  • Guest
CARM
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2006, 05:48:19 AM »

Quote from: Origen II
You sparred with Matt, Nightmare?

I'm impressed. I've never had the opportunity...nor have I ever tried.


No. We didn't spar. He was too busy with Taheton. However, I did interject and give him some food for thought, as you probably saw from what I posted. He probably was not very hungry though or did not like the taste of the meat I was giving him ;D
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SOTW

  • Guest
Sparring with Matt Slick.
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2006, 05:46:32 PM »

I used to Spar with him a lot before it was solidily revealed in my heart that Jesus saved all mankind. He (matt) still (from what I hear) regulars a room in Palchat, in which I used to host the only Universal Reconciliation chat room. Matt is the Calvinist who doesn't even know what Calvin believes and even when I didn't believe in Universal Reconciliation, the grace he taught was most certainly not what grace absolutely is. He is saved like the rest of us.
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lilitalienboi16

  • Guest
CARM
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2006, 11:00:58 PM »

I got EXPELLED out of Matt slicks synogauge (Banned from Carm Online Chat room) for using scripture that He couldn't refute. He proceeded to call me a "uniee" whatever that is, and said stuff such as "Blah blah blah" against scripture in His responce. So your not alone sasuka. He cannot stand the truth. Truly sad, specialy for all those who so highly looked up to Him. Which were numerous in the room.

Oh well.
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nightmare sasuke

  • Guest
CARM
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2006, 11:35:44 PM »

Quote from: lilitalienboi16
I got EXPELLED out of Matt slicks synogauge (Banned from Carm Online Chat room) for using scripture that He couldn't refute. He proceeded to call me a "uniee" whatever that is, and said stuff such as "Blah blah blah" against scripture in His responce. So your not alone sasuka. He cannot stand the truth. Truly sad, specialy for all those who so highly looked up to Him. Which were numerous in the room.

Oh well.


Psh, I got banned from that chat room twice. I will probably be banned from it for good now, and for the stupidest reason—giving my AIM address out casually! What Scripture did you show him that he couldn't refute? Did you save the conversation? If so, post it.
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lilitalienboi16

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CARM
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2006, 04:22:08 AM »

I did not save the conversation, i don't know how, i couldn't even copy and paste things in that "Java" based room.

However the conversation started with someone saying they were in the Airforce.

I said cool, but i would never do that.

I went on to say that if i was drafted for a war against Iran or some other issue i would claim that it is against my religion to kill.

Matt proceeded to ask me why i believe that, He proceeded to quote something Jesus told To His disciples which i believe was a parable. Something about Jesus asking His disciples if He sent them out with bags and something else and was it not sufficient? THen Jesus proceeds to say then let a man trade this/ sell  the [item] for a sword.

THen i told Him the verse where Jesus told His disciples along the line of "Those who live by the sword shall die by the sword."

I also told Him i don't believe that verse that He quoted was teaching people to go buy swords and kill people, but perhaps a deeper spiritual meaning.

He got bitter, started saying "what is wrong with all these people lately." I present Him more scripture that delt with Gods Word being a SWORD , and that Jesus words were SPIRIT and LIFE.

For example:

"And take the helmet of salvation, and the SWORD of the SPIRIT which IS the WORD of God" ( Eph. 6:17).

"For the WORD of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged SWORD, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit…" (Heb. 4:12).

He proceeded with, "Blah blah blah".

He then asked me

"If someone broke into your house and attacked your family would you not defend them?"

I told HIm "i would Pray for the guidence of what to do."

He laughed at me, along with other people in the room

He then said "You would pray?"

I said "yes i would".

He also asked me what if i saw a "rigtheous man" being killed would i not kill to save His life?

I told Him "i don't believe it right to kill another person NO MATTER WHAT."

Again they proceeded to laugh at me for this, Matt and a few others this time.

Then Matt asked me what church i attended.

I replied "None, i am apart of the body of Christ."

THen i was banned shortly after.
I was thinking in my head all the while through this that if such a situation arised with a family member or loved one that, "God is in complete controle of everything and so if this is happening there is a reason and that i should trust in Him and no matter the outcome it will be His Will." So in essance all i would be able to do would be to pray.

I also thought of Jesus when He was being humiliated and tortued how He never used force, always turned the other cheek (LOVE YORU ENEMIES). Even the situation i mentioned earlier in which i believe the disciple Peter (Not sure if its exactly peter or not one of the disciples) defended Jesus when He was being handed over to the soldiers by cutting of the slaves ear, and Jesus told Him not too. Was not peter defending a "loved one" as i was thinking of it. Was not Jesus part of Peters family? Yet Jesus told the disciple that what He did was wrong.

P.S. OFfcourse these are not word for word exact quotes of what was said but pretty darn close to it.
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nightmare sasuke

  • Guest
CARM
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2006, 06:02:13 AM »

Quote from: lilitalienboi16


"If someone broke into your house and attacked your family would you not defend them?"

I told HIm "i would Pray for the guidence of what to do."

He laughed at me, along with other people in the room

He then said "You would pray?"

I said "yes i would".


That is one heck of a response! You're a better person than me... Too bad Matt doesn't have the understanding you obviously do.
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Andrew

  • Guest
CARM
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2006, 06:27:06 AM »

Mat 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Luk 6:46  And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

 :wink:
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lilitalienboi16

  • Guest
CARM
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2006, 03:11:26 PM »

Quote from: nightmare sasuke
Quote from: lilitalienboi16


"If someone broke into your house and attacked your family would you not defend them?"

I told HIm "i would Pray for the guidence of what to do."

He laughed at me, along with other people in the room

He then said "You would pray?"

I said "yes i would".


That is one heck of a response! You're a better person than me... Too bad Matt doesn't have the understanding you obviously do.


Well if i can share with you something, before this all started, i got this wierd feeling and i prayed. I prayed along the lines that "Jesus i know you have come to be crucified again, may your will be done and may i speak truth in your name."

I tell you looking back at this that would not have been my first responce, but when it happened thats exactly what came out of me. So perhaps someone else was doing the talking for me. :)

P.S. i forgot to add that before i got banned, He asked me "What church do you go to?"

I replied with, "None, i am a member of the body of Christ."

Then matt said "That explains it, im not wasting time with you, im gonna go work out."

Then people were agreeing with Him, and then about 1 minute later i was banned.
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nightmare sasuke

  • Guest
CARM
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2006, 05:34:08 PM »

Quote from: lilitalienboi16
Quote from: nightmare sasuke
Quote from: lilitalienboi16


"If someone broke into your house and attacked your family would you not defend them?"

I told HIm "i would Pray for the guidence of what to do."

He laughed at me, along with other people in the room

He then said "You would pray?"

I said "yes i would".


That is one heck of a response! You're a better person than me... Too bad Matt doesn't have the understanding you obviously do.


Well if i can share with you something, before this all started, i got this wierd feeling and i prayed. I prayed along the lines that "Jesus i know you have come to be crucified again, may your will be done and may i speak truth in your name."

I tell you looking back at this that would not have been my first responce, but when it happened thats exactly what came out of me. So perhaps someone else was doing the talking for me. :)

P.S. i forgot to add that before i got banned, He asked me "What church do you go to?"

I replied with, "None, i am a member of the body of Christ."

Then matt said "That explains it, im not wasting time with you, im gonna go work out."

Then people were agreeing with Him, and then about 1 minute later i was banned.


"And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say" (Luk 12:11-12).
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SandyFla

  • Guest
CARM
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2006, 02:32:41 PM »

Quote from: lilitalienboi16
He then asked me

"If someone broke into your house and attacked your family would you not defend them?"

I told HIm "i would Pray for the guidence of what to do."

He laughed at me, along with other people in the room

He then said "You would pray?"

I said "yes i would".

He also asked me what if i saw a "rigtheous man" being killed would i not kill to save His life?

I told Him "i don't believe it right to kill another person NO MATTER WHAT."


If we are not to defend ourselves, can someone please explain to me what Jesus meant when He said, "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one" (Luke 22:36b)? What did He mean for them to do with that sword? What other use is there? To me, it seems that Jesus wanted His disciples to be able to protect themselves, as He said this shortly before the betrayal.

On E-sword, there no reference numeral for "sword," but for buy "one," it says,

"machaira
makh'-ahee-rah
Probably feminine of a presumed derivative of G3163; a knife, that is, dirk; figuratively war, judicial punishment: - sword"

Sandy
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eutychus

  • Guest
CARM
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2006, 03:25:52 PM »

Quote from: SandyFla
Quote from: lilitalienboi16
He then asked me

"If someone broke into your house and attacked your family would you not defend them?"

I told HIm "i would Pray for the guidence of what to do."

He laughed at me, along with other people in the room

He then said "You would pray?"

I said "yes i would".

He also asked me what if i saw a "rigtheous man" being killed would i not kill to save His life?

I told Him "i don't believe it right to kill another person NO MATTER WHAT."


If we are not to defend ourselves, can someone please explain to me what Jesus meant when He said, "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one" (Luke 22:36b)? What did He mean for them to do with that sword? What other use is there? To me, it seems that Jesus wanted His disciples to be able to protect themselves, as He said this shortly before the betrayal.

On E-sword, there no reference numeral for "sword," but for buy "one," it says,

"machaira
makh'-ahee-rah
Probably feminine of a presumed derivative of G3163; a knife, that is, dirk; figuratively war, judicial punishment: - sword"

Sandy



 one who would not protect his family is an infidel.
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shibboleth

  • Guest
CARM
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2006, 03:28:40 PM »

Bless those of you who have tried to show the Matt Slicks of the world the truth in the Bible. Everytime I have tried to talk to these people, they will only go so far. As soon as I mention I am a universalist or tell them about Rays site, I never hear from them again.

I used to be a reformed Presbyterian. These people, as well as all church people, have no trouble believing in square circles. Their God is sovereign, except when it comes to His desires, will and purpose, then man is in control. They won't say that, but their theology points to no other direction. If you talk to them for any amount of time, they really do believe man is in control. They mix truth with lies and come up with heresy.
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SandyFla

  • Guest
CARM
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2006, 03:28:49 PM »

Quote from: eutychus
one who would not protect his family is an infidel.


Right. You don't have to kill someone, but I don't believe it's wrong to physically stop them if you can ... you know, like shooting them in the leg.
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SandyFla

  • Guest
CARM
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2006, 03:34:59 PM »

Quote from: shibboleth
Their God is sovereign, except when it comes to His desires, will and purpose, then man is in control. They won't say that, but their theology points to no other direction. If you talk to them for any amount of time, they really do believe man is in control. They mix truth with lies and come up with heresy.


Exactly. I once had a "discussion" with someone on a Yahoo! group. After showing her that God had a plan to actually save the world, she had the nerve to claim that God planned to fail!!!

I told her that if a human being came up with a plan, and then planned for it to fail, we would consider that person a complete idiot, and how dare she put God in that category! She then accused ME of going too far! She also said that I was the heretic. So sad ... so very, very sad ...
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Becky

  • Guest
CARM
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2006, 04:37:04 PM »

that reminds me of "Days of our lives"!!!

I used to religiously watch in highschool.

It was hillarious the way these bad people carried on in thier lives... plotting to kill, seduce, take someone's identity, etc. but when old gramma lady was sick...but did they all pack into the church to light a candle and pray!
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