> General Discussions
Paul and Baptism
Lightseeker:
I agree that He was led by His spirit until He received The Holy Spirit. But even scholars kind of disagree at this point though.
[KJV] MAT 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
[RSV] MAT 4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
NAS, NIV, and Young's Literal Translation all capitalize 'spirit' in this verse but the KJV didn't. There sometimes is a blurring on this point of translation concerning the capitalization of spirit. In the Greek it doesn't tell you what should be capitalized or not. It isn't a matter of translation as much as it is a matter of interpretation in many verses. The capitalization should be reserved for the Spirit of God and the lower case should be reserved for our spirit or the spirit of Jesus. There is a difference according to scripture.
[KJV] ROM 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
love_magnified:
I interpret that he was led by the Spirit, not his spirit. I also believe he was led by the Spirit to fulfill the law, including being baptized by water, being circumcised and all other physical shadows so that we would later be given the Spirit which all these things testified to. Then, when he displayed to the world that only by the spirit could the Law be fulfilled, he put that same Spirit within us so that we could fulfill the higher law he brought. ;)
Lightseeker:
--- Quote from: hillsbororiver ---Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Phi 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
We worship God in the spirit, not by ritualistic shadows of the flesh.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
http://bible-truths.com/email3.htm#baptism
--- End quote ---
Can you see in the two verses which you quote, the very same dicotomy I pointed out to Love Magnified? Spirit/Ghost is consistantly capitalized in all translations in Mark 1:4. But it is lower case in Philipians 3:3 in KJV, RSV, while in the NAS, NIV, YLT it is upper case. So what case do you think is right? Are you worshiping God with your spirit? Or are you worshiping God with His Spirit....but wait...I thought His Spirit was God :!: Do you see my difficulty with the NIV, NAS, YLT translations on this verse :?:
I read your 1Co 12:13 verse and URL post and they present another difficulty for me scripturally. If this verse means there is only one baptism...then why is it a principle doctrine, according to scripture, to teach multiple baptisms?
[KJV] HEB 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, :2 Of the doctrine of baptisms,...
I'm not trying to argue and say I know it all...the Lord knows I don't. But can we reason together on this forum to seek the truth :D and not just seek to win :evil: It is my sincere hope that we can. Do you have an explanation to share concerning these difficulties I wrestle with?
Love Magnified
Thank you for sharing your understanding...even though I agree with part, disagree with part, and don't know concerning part, of your view :lol
Thank God being a brother/siste is dependent upon who we know and not what we know. :wink:
hillsbororiver:
Hello Lightseeker, I am of the opinion that the word "spirit" is used to describe the breath of life that is in every creature, the state of being for angels of God, the state of being for satan and his angels, and for the Gift of God, our Lord Jesus as the Comforter;
A few examples of words translated to "spirit" sometimes in upper case, sometimes lower case;
G4151
πνεῦμα
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.
H178
אוב
'ôb
obe
From the same as H1 (apparently through the idea of prattling a father’s name); properly a mumble, that is, a water skin (from its hollow sound); hence a necromancer (ventriloquist, as from a jar): - bottle, familiar spirit.
H7307
רוּח
rûach
roo'-akh
From H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, that is, a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions): - air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).
Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath7307; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
If you look up "principles" in the original Greek text you will see that it primarily means "beginning" in the way it is used, I see it as a jumping off point for the early believers (both then and now) then "Let us go on to perfection." Add to your faith, virtue; and to virtue knowledge, temperence, patience onto........... charity/love/perfection. These are the critical steps, not works of the flesh, this is the fruit of His Spirit what we are to strive for, spiritual growth the works will be manifest in the process, they (works) are not pleasing to God unless they are born of spirit. Rituals and buildings and the like (that are made with hands) are not what God desires, He wants us, all of us in everything to be a living sacrifice, daily.
Man being dust is the ground in the parables Christ's Word is the Seed, He is the Gardener, He is also the Water (Spirit) which nurtures the seeds to maturation, see mustard tree, firstfruits, etc.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
Joh 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles746 of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Then as now many would take these words of spirit and make them literal, cleansing sins with water, multiple baptisms, ritual washings, once we are doing this in the spirit do you really see a need to do it in the flesh?
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
G746
ἀρχή
archē
ar-khay'
From G756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concrete) chief (in various applications of order, time, place or rank): - beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.
Function: verb
Pronunciation: k&-'men(t)s
Inflected Form(s): com·menced ; com·menc·ing
Etymology: Middle English comencen, from Middle French comencer, from (assumed) Vulgar Latin cominitiare, from Latin com- + Late Latin initiare to begin, from Latin, to initiate
transitive senses
: to enter upon : BEGIN <commence proceedings>
intransitive senses 1 : to have or make a beginning : START
2 chiefly British : to begin to be or to act as
3 chiefly British : to take a degree at a university
synonym see BEGIN
- com·menc·er noun
Lightseeker:
Hello Joe,
Whew...I thought my posts might be a little too long :shock: You did have some precious nuggets of truth which were thrilling to read.
--- Quote ---If you look up "principles" in the original Greek text you will see that it primarily means "beginning" in the way it is used, I see it as a jumping off point for the early believers (both then and now) then "Let us go on to perfection." Add to your faith, virtue; and to virtue knowledge, temperence, patience onto........... charity/love/perfection. These are the critical steps, not works of the flesh, this is the fruit of His Spirit what we are to strive for, spiritual growth the works will be manifest in the process, they (works) are not pleasing to God unless they are born of spirit. Rituals and buildings and the like (that are made with hands) are not what God desires, He wants us, all of us in everything to be a living sacrifice, daily.
--- End quote ---
Total agreement but do you really mean "early believers?" Do you mean for that to be synonymous with immature or young?
--- Quote ---Then as now many would take these words of spirit and make them literal, cleansing sins with water, multiple baptisms, ritual washings, once we are doing this in the spirit do you really see a need to do it in the flesh?
--- End quote ---
If NT baptism was only of the Sspirit(?) then why did Phillip continue to baptize with water? He surely knew the right protocol for baptism after he had been with the apostles. And yet scripture shows that he baptized at Samaria with....what?
ACT 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women... [/b]
If you say he baptized in Sspirit, then why did Peter and John have to go to Samaria 2 verses later for them to receive the Holy Spirit?
ACT 8:14 Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John,
15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit;
It seems apparent to me that Phillip must have baptized with water because a few verses later Phillip baptized the Eunuch with water?
ACT 8:36 And as they went along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What is to prevent my being baptized?"
--- Quote ---Then as now many would take these words of spirit and make them literal, cleansing sins with water, multiple baptisms, ritual washings, once we are doing this in the spirit do you really see a need to do it in the flesh?
--- End quote ---
So when/why are you saying this FORM or SYMBOL of literal water disappeared, since scripture seems to indicate to me multiple baptisms at Samaria and a water baptism on the desert road for the Eunuch?
Thanks for the dialogue Joe and I'm sorry for the length, I'll try to keep mine shorter...for both of our time's sake. :D
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