> General Discussions
Paul and Baptism
BBryant:
WOW, Dee.....you managed to cover most all of my questions much more thoroughly than I ever could. And, of course, Joe's 'pearls of wisdom' are, indeed, priceless.
Thank you ALL for your input. I do believe that as we grow spritually, we come to the realization that physical acts accomplish nothing in the spiritual realm. However, I also believe that water baptism was used as a 'representation' of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ for the NEW babe in Christ - so possibly it serves a purpose.
I have never heard that being baptized was part of the law and would like some sources for that statement. I believe I was taught many years ago that water baptism was a completely new concept introduced by John the Baptist.....of course, I could be wrong.
Nevertheless, it seems that everyone is basically on the same page with some minor differences and, again, I truly appreciate everyone's input.
Barbara
love_magnified:
Hebrews 9 [which references Numbers 19:17–18] is a good reference. The New Testament baptisms were built on the Old. I gave the wrong impression when I said that rabbis had to be baptized. What it meant was ritual purification being a shadow. Christ was not a Levite. He was from Judah. So his baptism represents the fact that God was choosing him to be a priest according to the New Law (Hebrews 7:11-14). I gave the wrong impression. Sorry about that.
hillsbororiver:
--- Quote from: Lightseeker ---Hello Joe,
Whew...I thought my posts might be a little too long :shock: You did have some precious nuggets of truth which were thrilling to read.
--- Quote ---If you look up "principles" in the original Greek text you will see that it primarily means "beginning" in the way it is used, I see it as a jumping off point for the early believers (both then and now) then "Let us go on to perfection." Add to your faith, virtue; and to virtue knowledge, temperence, patience onto........... charity/love/perfection. These are the critical steps, not works of the flesh, this is the fruit of His Spirit what we are to strive for, spiritual growth the works will be manifest in the process, they (works) are not pleasing to God unless they are born of spirit. Rituals and buildings and the like (that are made with hands) are not what God desires, He wants us, all of us in everything to be a living sacrifice, daily.
--- End quote ---
Total agreement but do you really mean "early believers?" Do you mean for that to be synonymous with immature or young?
--- Quote ---Then as now many would take these words of spirit and make them literal, cleansing sins with water, multiple baptisms, ritual washings, once we are doing this in the spirit do you really see a need to do it in the flesh?
--- End quote ---
If NT baptism was only of the Sspirit(?) then why did Phillip continue to baptize with water? He surely knew the right protocol for baptism after he had been with the apostles. And yet scripture shows that he baptized at Samaria with....what?
ACT 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women... [/b]
If you say he baptized in Sspirit, then why did Peter and John have to go to Samaria 2 verses later for them to receive the Holy Spirit?
ACT 8:14 Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John,
15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit;
It seems apparent to me that Phillip must have baptized with water because a few verses later Phillip baptized the Eunuch with water?
ACT 8:36 And as they went along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What is to prevent my being baptized?"
--- Quote ---Then as now many would take these words of spirit and make them literal, cleansing sins with water, multiple baptisms, ritual washings, once we are doing this in the spirit do you really see a need to do it in the flesh?
--- End quote ---
So when/why are you saying this FORM or SYMBOL of literal water disappeared, since scripture seems to indicate to me multiple baptisms at Samaria and a water baptism on the desert road for the Eunuch?
Thanks for the dialogue Joe and I'm sorry for the length, I'll try to keep mine shorter...for both of our time's sake. :D
--- End quote ---
Hi Dee, we are probably going to have to agree to disagree on this subject, with that being said I believe that the ritual of baptism is not a bad thing, just not anything relevent to growing in His Spirit.
The water baptism is a symbolic initiation to proclaiming faith in God, dying to the flesh, and hope in the resurrection. But who are we declaring that to? Other men? Doesn't God already know what our relationship with Him is? Also, I don't recall saying "water baptism disappeared" only that once we realize that it is baptism in the Spirit that nurtures our growth we begin to realize that;
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
At the time the events in Acts 8 happened Paul had yet to be converted, the apostles were really still digesting the milk of the Word, as we all know that Spiritual understanding does not happen overnight. It took years after Christ's death and Resurrection for all the Truths they were given by Jesus during His ministry to take root and grow, were they not still circumsizing Gentiles at this time (Acts)?
It was many years later that Paul (through the Spirit) came to the realization that;
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Earlier in Galations we have Paul contending with Peter and others over this New Covenant that they were still in the process of understanding;
Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Gal 2:10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same, which I also was forward to do.
Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
Gal 2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
As you can see the apostles were in no way complete in their knowledge, they were still growing together (as are we). Read Acts and compare what they believed at that time versus what they came to realize later.
Anyway, (sorry for another epic) as baptism by water is a rather benign symbolic act, many of us will go through this (I did twice) before we become truly converted. We will leave our first Love (see the Prodigal Son) after we are baptized in water, and as the Spirit works in us one on one and not through the filter of a denomination we come to the realization that our growth in faith has been stunted, we became comfortable, rich and in need of nothing but the Spirit shows us we are wretched, poor & miserable, it is from that point forward that our real growth begins. We are slowly weaned off of the milk and begin to be able to digest the meat of the Word.
I am sorry for the long post, and I will make this the last one for me on this thread.
Thank you for bearing with me.
Joe
SOTW:
--- Quote ---At the time the events in Acts 8 happened Paul had yet to be converted, the apostles were really still digesting the milk of the Word, as we all know that Spiritual understanding does not happen overnight. It took years after Christ's death and Resurrection for all the Truths they were given by Jesus during His ministry to take root and grow, were they not still circumsizing Gentiles at this time (Acts)?
--- End quote ---
Good observation Jim. When I was 17, the Lord brought this to my attention and I wrote an article on it. Now even before reconciliation was established as truth and acceptable, the revelation that Acts was not a book of doctrine but a chronical of the life of the disciples and apostles as they established (or carried out) their calling.
To give a great example is Jesus said in the beginning of Acts, "John baptized with water, in a short time you shall be baptized with Holy Spirit and Fire." We recognize that Jesus attributed the baptism of John to water and John attributed the baptism of Jesus to the Holy Spirit and Fire. So in Acts 1, Jesus sets the stage for 11 chapters of misery for Peter, who through trials and suffering and even three rebukes from God Himself in a vision, that John baptized with water, everyone else is baptized in Holy Spirit and Fire.
So here we have Acts 2:38, Peter gives an equation which is written in stone by his own words, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the Name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
1. Repent
2. Be Baptized (We know Peter water baptized by water at the time)
3. Recieve Forgiveness (as dependant on steps 1 and 2)
3. Receive the Holy Spirit (as dependant on steps 1, 2 and 3)
Then something stranged happened and all the way upto Acts 10, Peter was rebuked by God, was hit hard by persecution and when he finally recognized that forgiveness comes in the Name of Jesus Christ and when one believes they are forgiven. While preaching, the Holy Spirit fell upon the people who believed in the message and noticing that none had been baptized in water, Peter thought he did something wrong when the reality is that Peter was finally doing something right.
Acts 10:43-47
All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.
Then Peter said, "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have."
1. Repent (Believe in the Name of Jesus Christ)
2. Recieve Forgiveness.
3. Recieve Holy Spirit.
4. Uh...Quick baptize them in water because that wasn't supposed happen that way...
Upon reflecting on the events that transpired, Peter then metaphorically hits himself on the side of the head reflecting on the rebuke he recieved from God and finally announces publicly and repents of his error and brought to rememberance the words of Christ Jesus who has remained the same, yesturday, today and forever, "JOHN BAPTIZED WITH WATER, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit."
Acts 11:14-18
He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.'
"As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. Then I remembered what the Lord had said: 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?"
When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."
Who was Peter to oppose God, who had already made clean all mankind through the Name of His Son Jesus Christ. Water was not the medium, the Name of Jesus and what He did for all mankind was the mode. So they had no further objections and from that day water baptism was never preached again by those who had recieved the Holy Spirit.
Now let me prove a point here. This is going to be surprising to some but make total sense to others. Jesus had always said that Baptism of John was by water and John has always said the Baptism of Jesus was Holy Spirit and Fire. There is no contesting this, except when it came to disciples who did not even know that Jesus was the Christ, and the Pharisees who hoped to spur jealousy amongst John and his disciples and Jesus and his disciples. When Jesus heard of this, Jesus went up and left Judea and went to Galilee. Needing to go through Samaria, Jesus decided to prove a point to his at least one of his disciples (John) who at the time did not understand the things of the Spirit (because the Spirit had not been poured out at this time), what water Jesus would baptize them in.
John 4:1-10
When Jesus knew that the Pharisees heard He was making and baptizing more disciples than John (though Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were), He left Judea and went again to Galilee. He had to travel through Samaria, so He came to a town of Samaria called Sychar near the property that Jacob had given his son Joseph. Jacob's well was there, and Jesus, worn out from His journey, sat down at the well. It was about six in the evening.
A woman of Samaria came to draw water.
"Give Me a drink," Jesus said to her, for His disciples had gone into town to buy food.
"How is it that You, a Jew, ask for a drink from me, a Samaritan woman?" she asked Him. For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.
Jesus answered, "If you knew the gift of God, and who is saying to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would ask Him, and He would give you living water."
John 4:13-24
Jesus said, "Everyone who drinks from this water will get thirsty again. But whoever drinks from the water that I will give him will never get thirsty again—ever! In fact, the water I will give him will become a well of water springing up within him for eternal life."
"Sir," the woman said to Him, "give me this water so I won't get thirsty and come here to draw water."
"Go call your husband," He told her, "and come back here."
"I don't have a husband," she answered.
"You have correctly said, 'I don't have a husband,' " Jesus said. "For you've had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have said is true."
"Sir," the woman replied, "I see that You are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, yet you [Jews] say that the place to worship is in Jerusalem."
Jesus told her, "Believe Me, woman, an hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You Samaritans worship what you do not know. We worship what we do know, because salvation is from the Jews. But an hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth. Yes, the Father wants such people to worship Him. God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
As you can see, Jesus was making a statement to you and I and those who witnessed this exchange that Jesus was not baptizing anyone in water, no the water He gives is living water. While the Jews (Pharisee) and Jesus's own disciples baptized people in water that cannot sustain life Jesus said there would be a time when the true worshipers of the Father, worship him in spirit and truth. John baptized with Water, Jesus baptized with Holy Spirit and Fire.
Luke 12:49-50
I have come to cast fire upon the earth, and how I wish that it were already kindled! I have a baptism with which to be baptized, and how greatly and sorely I am urged on (impelled, constrained) until it is accomplished!
Mark 10:35-40
Then James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came to him. "Teacher," they said, "we want you to do for us whatever we ask."
"What do you want me to do for you?" he asked.
They replied, "Let one of us sit at your right and the other at your left in your glory."
"You don't know what you are asking," Jesus said. "Can you drink the cup I drink or be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with?"
"We can," they answered. Jesus said to them, "You will drink the cup I drink and be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared."
Can there be no doubt to the baptism Jesus preached had nothing to do with water? Is there no doubt why Paul said he was not called to baptize any and is glad he did not baptize more than a few. Is there no doubt why everyone was in agreement finally reconciling in their minds the words of Christ when He said, "John baptizes with water but you shall be baptized with Holy Spirit and Fire?"
No doubt, let us follow the Lord in Spirit and in Truth.
Lightseeker:
Barbara,
I'm so glad to see you were still reading, since your post, and quote of 1 Peter 3:21, was the reason for me signing up here.
1PE 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
It would appear that when Peter is mentioning the "not putting away the filth of the flesh" he seems to be indicating that the water isn't what's important...but it was still being used in the baptism...sounds like sorta kinda maybe :?: I'm really not sure. But the clear conscience still lines up with imparted righteousness in my book
The fact that 1Peter was written at the same time as the book of Acts (64 AD according to my source) seems to present a difficulty for me too as far as what SOTW said concerning Peter stopping the use of water in chapter 10 of Acts. At least that's what I thought you were saying.
But I also have another difficulty scripturally with something Joe said.
Joe said
--- Quote ---It was many years later that Paul (through the Spirit) came to the realization that;
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
--- End quote ---
Your comment Joe, concerning the evolving of the disciples and the fact that they were still circumsizing Gentiles was a very good point. But I have another dilemma scripturally with your Galatians verse up above. It was written before Paul made his last appearance in Jerusalem before being arrested. And if what he said above is true then he fell from grace because he went back to the law in Acts 21 which was long after Galatians...I think.
ACT 21:17 And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present....20..21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. 25..26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.
This sounds to me like Paul recanted on what he wrote in 52 AD to the Galatians and returned to the law :o So am I missing something or do we seem to have a dilemma :?: I must ask for a little clarification for from those who may have some insight here. I personally am coming up a little short.
I know you said you were done posting Joe and I truly appreciate our time together. I gleaned some nuggets from your posts and I thank you for that. Maybe SOTW or someone else could weigh in here though.
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