Excerpt from a Catholic Children's book....

[skydreamers]

XXVIII. The Fifth Dungeon.

The Red Hot Oven

Ps. xx. Thou shalt make him as an oven of fire in the time of thy anger. You are going to see again the child about which you read in the Terrible Judgement, that it was condemned to hell. See! It is a pitiful sight. The little child is in this red hot oven. Hear how it screams to come out. See how it turns and twists itself about in the fire. It beats its head against the roof of the oven. It stamps its little feet on the floor of the oven. You can see on the face of this little child what you see on the faces of all in hell-- despair, desperate and horrible! The same law which is for others is also for children. If children, knowingly and willingly, break God's commandments, they must also be punished like others. This child committed very bad mortal sins, knowing well the harm of what it was doing, and knowing that hell would be the punishment. God was very good to this child. Very likely God saw that this child would get worse and worse, and would never repent, and so it would have to be punished much more in hell. So God, in His mercy, called it out of the world in its early childhood.

This is an excerpt from an actual Children's book written in the 1850's!!  Can you imagine reading this to your children as a bedtime story?  How awful!  What horrible things this doctrine of hell has made humanity do, and to children no less.  I'm appalled.  If this doesn't show how this hell doctrine is s a doctrine of devils than I don't know what would!!!


Peace,
Diana

[javajoe]

XXVIII. The Fifth Dungeon.

The Red Hot Oven

Ps. xx. Thou shalt make him as an oven of fire in the time of thy anger. You are going to see again the child about which you read in the Terrible Judgement, that it was condemned to hell. See! It is a pitiful sight. The little child is in this red hot oven. Hear how it screams to come out. See how it turns and twists itself about in the fire. It beats its head against the roof of the oven. It stamps its little feet on the floor of the oven. You can see on the face of this little child what you see on the faces of all in hell-- despair, desperate and horrible! The same law which is for others is also for children. If children, knowingly and willingly, break God's commandments, they must also be punished like others. This child committed very bad mortal sins, knowing well the harm of what it was doing, and knowing that hell would be the punishment. God was very good to this child. Very likely God saw that this child would get worse and worse, and would never repent, and so it would have to be punished much more in hell. So God, in His mercy, called it out of the world in its early childhood.

This is an excerpt from an actual Children's book written in the 1850's!!  Can you imagine reading this to your children as a bedtime story?  How awful!  What horrible things this doctrine of hell has made humanity do, and to children no less.  I'm appalled.  If this doesn't show how this hell doctrine is s a doctrine of devils than I don't know what would!!!


Peace,
Diana

I especially "like" the part about "God in His mercy"!  Sick, sick, sick!  No wonder the world thinks "christians" are a bunch of idiots!

[YellowStone]

Great post Diana

I will comment on this though:

This is an excerpt from an actual Children's book written in the 1850's!!  Can you imagine reading this to your children as a bedtime story?  How awful!  What horrible things this doctrine of hell has made humanity do, and to children no less.  I'm appalled.  If this doesn't show how this hell doctrine is s a doctrine of devils than I don't know what would!!!

I do not for a moment think that you mean the 'doctrine of hell' took the clay from the potters hand and said to God: Begone! This is my show now!!!  Do not be appalled, for all is according to the will of God; do not question the potter.

Rom 9:21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Rather, be thankful, gracious, humble to the one who has opened your eyes, for it is He that has given each of us eyes to see and ears to hear and no other.

Javajoe, are those words really sick!!!! I mean, not that the message they portray is not, but by whose power were they spoken. By Mans, or Gods?

If by Man then we had all better start trembling in fear; however, if by God, then surely the question is: WHY???

Never forget, that it is and has always been God's plan for many to stray, any truth that has been given us has been given by him, and we can do nothing good of ourselves, except by him who lives in us, lest we should ever boast.

We must never fall in the trap of thinking of those poor children, because God has them covered with his own plan. Does any child die outside the will of God?

Please forgive me if either of you think I came on to harsh. It was not my intention.

Love in Christ the Lamb,
Darren

[javajoe]

Great post Diana

I will comment on this though:

This is an excerpt from an actual Children's book written in the 1850's!!  Can you imagine reading this to your children as a bedtime story?  How awful!  What horrible things this doctrine of hell has made humanity do, and to children no less.  I'm appalled.  If this doesn't show how this hell doctrine is s a doctrine of devils than I don't know what would!!!

I do not for a moment think that you mean the 'doctrine of hell' took the clay from the potters hand and said to God: Begone! This is my show now!!!  Do not be appalled, for all is according to the will of God; do not question the potter.

Rom 9:21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Rather, be thankful, gracious, humble to the one who has opened your eyes, for it is He that has given each of us eyes to see and ears to hear and no other.

Javajoe, are those words really sick!!!! I mean, not that the message they portray is not, but by whose power were they spoken. By Mans, or Gods?

If by Man then we had all better start trembling in fear; however, if by God, then surely the question is: WHY???

Never forget, that it is and has always been God's plan for many to stray, any truth that has been given us has been given by him, and we can do nothing good of ourselves, except by him who lives in us, lest we should ever boast.

We must never fall in the trap of thinking of those poor children, because God has them covered with his own plan. Does any child die outside the will of God?

Please forgive me if either of you think I came on to harsh. It was not my intention.

Love in Christ the Lamb,
Darren

Darren,

The Bible talks about "righteous indignation" .  I think being appallled at such a portrayal of hell, especially in the context of a children's book is a proper response.  This doctrine mock's the mercy of God (especially as portrayed in this story), and it is sick (not well, not whole).  Hope we are on the same page.

In Christ,

Joe

[YellowStone]

Hi Java Joe,

The term "Righteous Indignation" is interesting.

Quick definitions (indignation)
noun:   a feeling of righteous anger
http://onelook.com/?w=indignation&ls=a

May I ask who are you feeling righteous anger towards?

If we look at the root word of Indignation we find the follwowing:

Quick definitions (indignant)
adjective:   angered at something unjust or wrong
http://onelook.com/?w=indignant&last=indignat&loc=spell1

Now, I can see where the utter nonsense of the hell doctrine is unjust and is wrong according to the truth that has been revealed, but should it drive us to anger?

This is a very interesting question, and please do not think I am attacking you   Yet when Christ cleared the Temple, was he angry? The Scriptures do not state that he was; rather, they (to my understanding) state that He simply cleared the temple, because what it was being used for was unjust and wrong. I do not believe that he could have been angry, becasue who would have been angry with? What message would that have portrayed?

All good question

Love in Christ,
Darren

[ciy]

Not really weighing in on Darren's and Joe's discussion, but I cannot find "righteous indignation" anywhere in the bible.

CIY

[skydreamers]

Hi Darren, I appreciate what you are saying, but to be honest, I am still appalled.  (not angry).  Just because we know it is God's will, do we have to like it?  

My German grandma use to read Grimm's fairy tales to me when I was a child...you know, Hansel and Gretal and the witch who wants to eat them, Little Red Riding Hood and the evil wolf who does eat her....etc etc etc. 

Man, I thought those were scary when I was a kid.  To this day, those stories give me the heebie jeebies.  I barely can imagine what state I would have been in as a child if someone had have read to me the above story (which by the way was only a small excerpt out of the whole thing)...can anyone say NIGHTMARES!  Yikes!

Peace,
Diana

[javajoe]

Hi Darren, I appreciate what you are saying, but to be honest, I am still appalled.  (not angry).  Just because we know it is God's will, do we have to like it?  

My German grandma use to read Grimm's fairy tales to me when I was a child...you know, Hansel and Gretal and the witch who wants to eat them, Little Red Riding Hood and the evil wolf who does eat her....etc etc etc. 

Man, I thought those were scary when I was a kid.  To this day, those stories give me the heebie jeebies.  I barely can imagine what state I would have been in as a child if someone had have read to me the above story (which by the way was only a small excerpt out of the whole thing)...can anyone say NIGHTMARES!  Yikes!

Peace,
Diana

Diana,

there is nothing wrong with being angry in itself,  Gos was angry on many occasions,

1 Kings 11:9  And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the LORD God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice,  just one of many examples

And Jesus was angry with the money changers, (and I would call it righteous ingination)

It never says being angry is a sin in the bible, but says:

Ephesians 4:26  BE ANGRY, AND yet DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger,

When we see an injsutice, I think it is normal for a believer to be appalled or angry, but if we stayed angry (don't let the sun go down on your anger), then that would be a problem.

That was a good post, and it was good that that story stirred ip a little "righteous indignation".  Anger can be a good motivator to do the right thing, only when properly applied, such as Jesus driving out the money changers from the temple.

Hope that helps,

Joe

[YellowStone]

Hi Diana and Joe

I think we are all on the same page here, though maybe looking at it from different angles.

I have no complaint at all with how this thread progressed, AND I do agree it is apalling. LOL Not sure if I can blame anyone but God though, so I won't go there.

Love to all in Christ,
Darren

[javajoe]

That's OK, Bro!   
It is hard to imagine all the junk out there being in God's plan, but maybe us exposing it and talking about it is one way we are "being molded into His image", no matter what emotions we may or may not feel.  It's harder yet trying to explain all this to an unbeliever!  But we try.

ciao, and God Bless!

Joe (who likes java)

[gmik]

As far as the book itself goes, how else to keep millions of people in line and under control.  Train them when they're young to fear--the authority was the church.  The church kept millions in bondage for centuries (and still do) thru fear.

Of course it is sad and appalling. It is so tempting to think "well, if I were God I wouldn't have allowed that". But it is all God's will.  Period. And we do not want to be in a position where we are telling God we would have done it differently. Yikes and double yikes!

When Jesus was in Egypt, hundreds of babies under 2 were murdered.  That is pretty sad, but it fulfilled a prophecy, AND it was God's plan.  And we know all these babes will be saved and with HIM.  Down thru history there are more sad stories like this than there are good ones.  His plan.