> General Discussions
Proclaimations of Love
hillsbororiver:
Hello Everyone,
I have been in a discussion with a brother who disagrees with me on the matter of how we should proclaim or even if we are truly capable of “agape” unconditional love or charity early in our journey with God or is it for most of us a slow and steady progression as Peter appears to outline?
2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
To me it looks like we start with the mustard seed of faith and through diligence and perseverance we get a down payment (earnest (2Cor 1:22, 2Cor 5:5) of His Spirit that begins the change in our hearts, we are capable (through His Spirit) to experience this emotion in doses, increasing as He increases in us. But is it truly a 24/7 part of our life, do we ever get to the place where we are perfect in these things while in the flesh? All the time under any circumstance? Actually I can only think of One Person who could make this claim.
1. Faith
2. Virtue
3. Knowledge
4. Temperance
5. Patience
6. Godliness
7. Brotherly Kindness
8. Charity
Charity26
G26
ἀγάπη
agapē
ag-ah'-pay
From G25; love, that is, affection or benevolence; specifically (plural) a love feast: - (feast of) charity ([-ably]), dear, love.
My point or question is who has perfect faith in this life, or virtue or any of the rest of these things? Charity (agape love) would seem to be the epitome of a Christ like person and not something we can freely will ourselves to do, can we be intemperate or impatient and still display or should I say truly have charity (agape love) in our hearts. Wouldn’t true charity culminate as a combination of the other things Peter mentions?
If a person has little problem continuing to publicly castigate other people or holds animosity toward some are they capable of agape love, charity?
Jam 3:11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
It was said to me that when one proclaims agape love that they are honestly following the command of Jesus to “love your brother”, I can definitely see that but does He not also command us to “sin no more” how many would claim to be following that command?
As Ray has pointed out before about adultery/lust, sure you can outwardly or physically not commit the act of adultery but who can say they never lust? These commands really show us how much in need of His Spirit we really are and until we get the full inheritance we will be lacking the ability to be perfect in His commandments, we will fail, fall and stumble. We must strive for all the things that the Lord has commanded not only paying attention to the things we might believe make us more attractive to others, seeking their praise and kind words.
Matthew Chapter 6 addresses this very thing;
Matthew 6 (King James)
1Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
4That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
5And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
Matthew 6 (Amplified Bible)
1TAKE CARE not to do your good deeds publicly or before men, in order to be seen by them; otherwise you will have no reward [reserved for and awaiting you] with and from your Father Who is in heaven.
2Thus, whenever you give to the poor, do not blow a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites in the synagogues and in the streets like to do, that they may be recognized and honored and praised by men. Truly I tell you, they have their reward in full already.
3But when you give to charity, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
4So that your deeds of charity may be in secret; and your Father Who sees in secret will reward you openly.
5Also when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by people. Truly I tell you, they have their reward in full already.
6But when you pray, go into your [most] private room, and, closing the door, pray to your Father, Who is in secret; and your Father, Who sees in secret, will reward you in the open.
Any thoughts or comments on this subject?
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
YellowStone:
Hi Joe,
I am short on time and this will not be able to give your question as in depth response as I would like.
But I feel that one can only begin to understand agape love, when one can love and recieve love without reason. When love is truly without condition, it becomes eternal, for it's existance is based on nothing but love itself.
Does one need to be perfect to achieve this love? I think that depends on who is being loved. My point is, I do not belive that I will ever be able to love God perfectly until I am perfect. However, unconditional love for one another is surely in our reach, even though it is difficult to touch and hold on too.
Just my thoughts, thanks Joe for a wonderful discussion.
Love in Christ,
Darren
hillsbororiver:
Hi Darren,
You are welcome.
My point is we get a taste, a down payment on it, sometimes it can be overwhelming but at other times we are struggling in our flesh and we are not capable of this (agape love/charity) without His Spirit in charge, we must be empty of self, selfless.
Are we selfless when we are holding a grudge, being angry, jealous or contentious? Are we selfless saying things in public when we should be saying them in private?
There is no doubt when the Lord begets us spiritually we have an empathy for others that we more than likely did not have previously but I think some (like my friend) gets this confused with the most Christlike attribute one can possibly have, true selfless charity.
I think we are in agreement here and I appreciate your comments and input.
His Peace to you Brother,
Joe
josh:
Joe,
Excellent post. I'd like to read over it a few more times before I properly respond, but really... this was a great post for me to read this afternoon.
God's Peace.
Josh
Kat:
Hi Joe,
This whole thing of love (agape - Phileo) is hard to come to a good understanding of it. I have referred back to Ray 'Love' Bible study and have brought out some things that I think apply to what you are saying.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3719.0.html ---------
So this is the manner in which God loves the world, with agapao love. A love that is undeserved, they’re not reciprocating, ok. Let me give you another example of agapao love, not phileo love. Agapao love is when they crucified Christ, and He was dying, He prayed to His Father and said, “Father forgive them, for they don’t know what they are doing.” (Luke 23:34) Now that’s agape love.
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We can love our neighbor, with a agape love, we don’t need to fellowship, hobnob with them or become part of what they are, in any way, shape or form.
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But Christ said, "but I say unto you, love your enemies" - agapao your enemies. (Matt 5:44)
God said, I hate liars and people that cause discord and everything, yet I gave My own Son for the world. Why?, because I agapao them.
God thinks beyond their couple of three score and ten years of hate and criminality. I look beyond that, and I see their future - agapao. Maybe we need to learn to do that too. If we’re going to be like God, right.
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Phileo not only means affectionate love and adoration, and fondness for fellow brothers or sisters, it means kiss, ok. Because you kiss someone you’re fond of, that’s how close they are connected.
So God does not tell us, we have to phileo our enemies or that we have to phileo our next door neighbor.
Agapao is a more formal, it’s not a give and take, two-way street. It’s a one-way street, forgiving humanity for the evil that they have.
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For the whole world, we have to have this agapao love. But no where does God say we have to phileo them, or love them with affection, like a brotherly love, where we would hug them or give them a kiss.
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mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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