> General Discussions
Proclaimations of Love
skydreamers:
--- Quote ---My point or question is who has perfect faith in this life, or virtue or any of the rest of these things? Charity (agape love) would seem to be the epitome of a Christ like person and not something we can freely will ourselves to do, can we be intemperate or impatient and still display or should I say truly have charity (agape love) in our hearts.
--- End quote ---
Hi Joe, you have a real knack for writing posts that make me have to look myself in the mirror and ask the hard questions! :) (This is good by the way! ;))
The words that really jumped out at me were "intemperate or impatient". Some days I feel like I have the patience of Job, and other days I feel like I'm going to snap if things don't progress the way I want them too. Even with my own children who I love (phileo?) dearly, I can become ridiculously impatient...I hate this in myself! But at the same time, I feel I also love (agape?) them in the way that is unconditional....I apologize for my outbursts (my five year old gets a kick out of this) and I certainly don't hold grudges against them or judge them. Not only are they just children, but they are also carnal little people struggling to learn good in this world, just like me. But I almost feel like there is nothing they could do that would permanently make me shut them out.
That's why I don't understand why (ET believing) parents can't dig deeper and realize that if they feel this way about their own children, wouldn't God feel at least that much love towards His? I certainly know that however much or in whatever way I love my children, it is nothing in comparison to the purity of God's love.
Knowing and reminding myself that I don't understand the depths of God's love humbles me.
But I do think that learning what I have these past years has given me a glimpse of His love, and my ability to see all of humanity as a whole, as being God's children who will all be brought into the fold, helps me to view even the seemingly vilest person with more empathy. On a grand scale, I can think this way. But in the microcosm of my life, it's not so easy....that guy who cuts me off in traffic for instance....I'm getting better (I don't outwardly express stuff...especially with my kids in the car.... ;)...but I can still feel it getting under my skin....it bugs me...know what I mean?) Like I said, patience is a problem for me and I feel like I want to instantly react when people are rude. I keep having to remember to overcome the bad with good. Sigh....such a long road ahead still.....
Peace,
Diana
hillsbororiver:
Hello Josh, thanks and I look forward to your insights in regard to this subject.
Kat, Ray certainly cuts to the chase and expresses these things so clearly, yes I can see that some are really confusing phileo (I like you, you like me, I am nice to you, you are nice to me) kind of love with the love that Christ (and the Father) have for their creation. A huge difference. Thanks for adding that.
Hi Diana, many of the topics I start come from after looking in the (spiritual) mirror and not being exactly thrilled at what I see, but when I read the Scriptures I see that this is what we are to experience. We learn of Him, want to be like Him and follow His commands and then we promptly fall on our face as we try to replicate the spiritual with physical efforts.
Either we become comfortable with our fleshly impersonation of spiritual things or we become humbled realizing we cannot even do what we want without the Spirit of Christ holding us up. This I believe is what will eventually empty us of ourselves. If we start to believe we already possess what we really ought to be striving for then how hard will we be looking, or striving?
Thank you all for your responses!
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
Deborah-Leigh:
Hello Joe
You ask : If a person has little problem continuing to publicly castigate other people or holds animosity toward some are they capable of agape love, charity?
Quoting Ray in his latest instalment Gehenna Fire Judgment : Does standing up for the Truths of Jesus Christ bring more persecution, condemnation, and ridicule from your "Christian" brothers and sisters than you are willing to endure?
Is the person you mention who you say "has little problem continuing to publicly castigate other people" fit the description of being willing to endure persecution, condemnation and ridicule from his "Christian" brothers and sisters OR is the brother you mention against the person of his "Christian" brothers and sisters and willing for them to go to pagan Hell and desires to help them along the way?
IF the brother you mention believes in Hell then yes, I would agree that they are incapable of agape or phileo love because the Love of God is not apparently in them.
I personally do not believe that we are supposed to harm each other. Even Paul grieved and repented of hurting his brethren but latter was glad for the Godly outcome.
2Cor 7: 8 For even though I did GRIEVE YOU with my letter, I do not regret it now, though I did regret it; for I see that that letter did pain you, though only for a little while; 9. Yet I am glad now, NOT BECAUSE YOU WERE PAINED, but because you were pained into repentance and so turned back to God; for you felt a grief such as God meant you to feel, so that in nothing you might suffer loss THROUGH US or harm FOR WHAT WE DID. 10 For Godly grief and the pain God is permitted to direct, produce a repentance that leads and contributes to salvation and deliverance from evil, and it never brings regret; but worldly grief is deadly....
I believe that the worldly who hate and do not believe in the Word of God, are already in pain and when they encounter a child of God, that pain just gets worse.
Perhaps you may find one maybe two thoughts in the above that might fit this particular episode you are experiencing with your brother. I believe it is also worth considering that the trials of our faith are not easy walks in the garden!
If any of this constructively applies to your expereince then I am rewarded. If not then I am rewarded to have been given the occasion to contemplate this difficult situation you have shared, as though it were mine.
Peace be to you both
Arcturus :)
YellowStone:
Hi Joe,
I think you have really nailed it with what you wrote here.
There is no doubt when the Lord begets us spiritually we have an empathy for others that we more than likely did not have previously but I think some (like my friend) gets this confused with the most Christlike attribute one can possibly have, true selfless charity.
I feel true agape love is the removal of all desires to be right, to prove wrong, to hold or gain ground. Rather it is the EXACT opposite.
First it is to gain understanding so as to FIND agreement, even if one has to admit they were mistaken. It's not about holding back anger or frustration; rather, it is about NEVER feeling such thoughts. It's about being thankful, respectful and gracious for every moment spent. Agape love is not blind and neither does it seek to cover. Neither does it have motives or desires, nor is it selfish or selfless (being only capable of giving love but not recieving love).
Love cannot be just said: One cannot just say "I love you." Love must be felt; though not just by feeling love, but also one must also feel the love they give. These words sound so simple, but they are not. There is no way I can say I truly love rapists, child molestors, etc, for I 'feel' no love towards them. Oh I have tried, and the best I have been able to do with a lot of help from God, is honestly say I do not hate them. I could say that I love them, but I would be a liar and God would know in an instant.
God is love; he seeks not prove his love; neither should anyone else.
Just my thoughts, :)
Love in Christ
Darren
skydreamers:
--- Quote ---2Cor 7: 8 For even though I did GRIEVE YOU with my letter, I do not regret it now, though I did regret it; for I see that that letter did pain you, though only for a little while; 9. Yet I am glad now, NOT BECAUSE YOU WERE PAINED, but because you were pained into repentance and so turned back to God; for you felt a grief such as God meant you to feel, so that in nothing you might suffer loss THROUGH US or harm FOR WHAT WE DID. 10 For Godly grief and the pain God is permitted to direct, produce a repentance that leads and contributes to salvation and deliverance from evil, and it never brings regret; but worldly grief is deadly....
I believe that the worldly who hate and do not believe in the Word of God, are already in pain and when they encounter a child of God, that pain just gets worse.
--- End quote ---
Hi Arcturus, great verses! (I seem to be following you around today.... ;))
--- Quote ---I feel true agape love is the removal of all desires to be right, to prove wrong, to hold or gain ground. Rather it is the EXACT opposite.
First it is to gain understanding so as to FIND agreement, even if one has to admit they were mistaken. It's not about holding back anger or frustration; rather, it is about NEVER feeling such thoughts. It's about being thankful, respectful and gracious for every moment spent. Agape love is not blind and neither does it seek to cover. Neither does it have motives or desires, nor is it selfish or selfless (being only capable of giving love but not recieving love).
--- End quote ---
Darren, that was very well said...very cool! 8)
Thanks everyone for a great thread,
Peace,
Diana
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