> General Discussions
Proclaimations of Love
hillsbororiver:
--- Quote from: Arcturus on September 05, 2007, 02:37:10 PM ---Hello Joe
Hi Arcturus,
You ask : If a person has little problem continuing to publicly castigate other people or holds animosity toward some are they capable of agape love, charity?
Quoting Ray in his latest instalment Gehenna Fire Judgment : Does standing up for the Truths of Jesus Christ bring more persecution, condemnation, and ridicule from your "Christian" brothers and sisters than you are willing to endure?
Is the person you mention who you say "has little problem continuing to publicly castigate other people" fit the description of being willing to endure persecution, condemnation and ridicule from his "Christian" brothers and sisters OR is the brother you mention against the person of his "Christian" brothers and sisters and willing for them to go to pagan Hell and desires to help them along the way?
IF the brother you mention believes in Hell then yes, I would agree that they are incapable of agape or phileo love because the Love of God is not apparently in them.
I personally do not believe that we are supposed to harm each other. Even Paul grieved and repented of hurting his brethren but latter was glad for the Godly outcome.
Thankfully he does not subscribe to the ET doctrine but does not see the need for so many other of the truths of our Lord, believing or at least stating that his unconditional love for all covers everything else. I have seen this philosophy before, but what I have been trying to get him to see is that this love (charity) is not something that just happens suddenly or instantaneously but that this is the culmination of all the other attributes of His Spirit within.
Often in Scripture we see our spiritual growing experience being compared to building a house, we are to build our house on a solid foundation, faith in the Rock that is Christ, not the shifting sand of human feelings and reasoning. The foundation of a house is not the end result though, our Master Builder leads us through the process of building our spiritual house step by step just as a physical building is made. Structural walls must be erected, a roof put in place and then all doors, windows, etc. If we think we can skip steps in this process the structure will not be inhabitable, it will fail. This is I believe what Peter is saying when he says, "add to your faith virtue," etc. (2Peter 1:5-7)
The worldly winds of feelings, emotion and seeking the praise of men will soon blow our shabby structure off the Rock foundation and back onto the shifting sand of this world.
2Cor 7: 8 For even though I did GRIEVE YOU with my letter, I do not regret it now, though I did regret it; for I see that that letter did pain you, though only for a little while; 9. Yet I am glad now, NOT BECAUSE YOU WERE PAINED, but because you were pained into repentance and so turned back to God; for you felt a grief such as God meant you to feel, so that in nothing you might suffer loss THROUGH US or harm FOR WHAT WE DID. 10 For Godly grief and the pain God is permitted to direct, produce a repentance that leads and contributes to salvation and deliverance from evil, and it never brings regret; but worldly grief is deadly....
Arcturus, you have no idea how directly you hit the nail on the head, perfectly square! This discussion has him feeling not edified or seeing a need for correction but as a personal assault.
I believe that the worldly who hate and do not believe in the Word of God, are already in pain and when they encounter a child of God, that pain just gets worse.
My friend has complained of feeling tortured and experiencing the wrath of God, when the attempt is made to help him understand that when he is trying to show charity/love to the world by his own efforts he rejects it, always coming back to "I am following the command of Jesus to love my brother." OK fine, what about not holding grudges, being angry with those who do not agree with you, how about being intemperate with your words, how about shouting of your good deeds and "love" on the streetcorners? What about the command to "sin no more?" Is this command fully obtainable in this flesh? We will sin less and less as we grow with Him as we will love more and more through growing in His Spirit. These commands are the goals we have before us, of where we will be when we are literally born again in the Spirit, when the corruptable becomes incorruptable (1Cor 15:42-45).
This spiritual growth to being truly charitable is not an easy or swift process, without recognizing what is wrong how does one ask and pray for the strength to overcome?
Perhaps you may find one maybe two thoughts in the above that might fit this particular episode you are experiencing with your brother. I believe it is also worth considering that the trials of our faith are not easy walks in the garden!
I found plenty! ;)
If any of this constructively applies to your expereince then I am rewarded. If not then I am rewarded to have been given the occasion to contemplate this difficult situation you have shared, as though it were mine.
Thank you for your thoughtful post.
Peace be to you both
Arcturus :)
His Peace to you Sister,
Joe
--- End quote ---
hillsbororiver:
--- Quote from: YellowStone on September 05, 2007, 03:08:09 PM ---
It's not about holding back anger or frustration; rather, it is about NEVER feeling such thoughts.
--- End quote ---
Great point Darren,
That is a tough one to fulfil in this flesh, as we grow in Spirit we get the earnest (down payment) on this attribute but (as Diana also pointed out) we get caught up in our day to day lives and sometimes the smallest irritations can trigger anger, the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. ;)
As we grow these episodes become less frequent but if we are in this mode of constant self justification, anger, and looking for other's faults (specks in their eyes) we will fail to see our own shortcomings, our real place in this journey.
Peter also warns us of this;
1Pe 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
The portion Kat posted from Ray was really what this is all about and I think many become confused, even deceived by supposing their love for those they agree with or identify with is what the Lord is commanding us to aspire to. It is much, much more.
Luk 6:32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
Luk 6:33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
His Peace to you,
Joe
P.S. This beast of ours is more insidious, clever and resourceful than we ever could have imagined before;
Rev 13:4 And they worshiped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshiped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
javajoe:
Good morning everyone,
This was an excellent post, but I feel compelled to repond to the statement below:
IF the brother you mention believes in Hell then yes, I would agree that they are incapable of agape or phileo love because the Love of God is not apparently in them.
I would agree with this statement, but with the following qualification:
I think many people who reluctantly, sadly, it breaks their heart believe in hell can have agape love. That was what i was taught and believed in for years, and many of my christian friends who still believe in this doctrine obviously love the Lord and have a desire in their hearts "that all man be saved", these people are working out of agape love. On the other hand, those who revel in the idea of, or wish hell on others "you'll get yours - you just wait", are incapable of agape love. I am reminded of what I heard about a Benny Hinn "revival", where he was "prophecying" that God is going to "smite down all of the homosexuals with fire and send them to hell", After he said this, the crowd cheered! Those people hadn't a clue as to what agape love was all about.
I do admit that this new way of believing makes it a lot easier for me to have agape love, because now I see everyone I meet as "being reconciled to God".
I'd like to get responses from others. What do you all think?
Thanks,
ciao,
Joe
hillsbororiver:
Hi Joe,
I see your point as to where the person's heart is as they believe the "hell" indoctrination/doctrine. Do they embrace it or do they have a consternation when contemplating it?
The point I was trying to make here though is even though our empathy for all our brothers and sisters will increase dramatically as we grow in spirit, learning more of His truths, the ability to have a true unconditional love for all, to really love our enemies and not just give lip service to it requires a very mature spiritual person who also consistantly displays the other spiritual attributes that Peter describes.
But can a person who believes that God will eternally torture those He is at enmity with while He commands us to love our enemies be worshipping the real Living God? The Provider of all spiritual gifts?
There is no doubt they can have a deep and profound love for their family, friends and others in the church but are they really capable of loving those on the outside, can the carnal mind comprehend much less manifest true spiritual fruit?
Paul in 1 Corinthians speaks to the church(es) about this carnality;
1 Corinthians 3
1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
6I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
Joe, I do not believe that those who have yet to have their eyes opened (not that they won't) are capable of a knowledge of the deeper things of God, the spiritual truths that only He can reveal. Therefore they are still carnal.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
pylady:
Hi Joe,
Thank you for this thread. Your post and all the responses have really hit home for me . this scripture comes to mind:
1Tim1:5 "Now the end of the commandment is charity (agape) out of a pure
heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned."
Agape love and a pure heart are linked here. Do we have pure hearts.? If not can we have pure agape love? And can we have a good conscience? I know it seems like every day I say, think or do something that bothers my conscience. :'(
I said your post hit home but it was really more like a bullseye when you said to quote:
"This beast of ours is more insidious, clever and resourceful than we ever could have imagined before" and
"If we start to believe we already possess what we really ought to be striving
for then how hard will we be looking, or striving?"
Recently God used a small incident to teach me a big lesson, and to show me
that the beast is still on his throne in me, and that His standards are much higher than mine. I thought my standards WERE His standards but He showed me NOT!
Not to go into detail, but this incident involved a small transaction - returning something to the store. I thought I was a truthful person - hated a lie as I was required. But - WHACK - He showed me as only He can that truth is much more than not saying lying words. His standard of truth is what is in your heart, or in this case what was in my heart from the moment I decided to return this item. He also showed me what false pride it is to think that I was truthful and living up to His standards, or that I could!
WOW - I felt this reprimand. I really wanted to hide in a cave or have a mountain fall on me to hide me from His presence. It really made me understand Rev6: 15,16!
Anyway when I read your words it brought this back to me. How timely your words are!
It is wonderful to see His hand in our lives teaching and correcting us, and using our brothers and sisters to teach us, even it may sting at times.
I'm sorry if I've strayed off the topic some and made this personal. I'm really just trying to say I don't think we can do anything perfectly while in the flesh, including showing agape love to others. But it is a journey in this life in which He is teaching and cleansing us to bring us to perfection. If we are to be in His image we must not only understand, show and feel agape love. We must become love. God IS love.
Your sister in Christ,
Cindy :)
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